Official Metaknight Discussion

[BarDulL]

Ah...there are some misconceptions regarding planking/scrooging. I will clarify these at once!

There is no rule in the official BBR rule set regarding planking/scrooging. This being said, the BBR has not confronted planking/scrooging head on.

As it stands, planking/scrooging DO NOT fall under the stalling rule that was implemented long ago. Why we haven't directly tackled these issues, I do not know. But I do know that, in the official BBR rule set, there is not a single reference to "ledge grab limits" or "scrooging limits." These rules were implemented by TOs who felt these strategies were "too powerful/too gay."

This is really important to note, because TOs opted to restrict MK as opposed to banning him.

My personal thoughts on this are that TOs felt it wasn't a smart idea to ban MK because their tournaments would lose numbers in attendance, especially without the BBR backing the decision. Meanwhile, the BBR was busy with other projects and neglected to make an official response to "ledge grab limits." They still have yet to do so.

The first major tournament to introduce a ledge grab limit was...Genesis, I believe. After Genesis was EVO, which also had a ledge grab limit. With people complaining about planking and the lack of an official response by the BBR, TOs turned to the success of these two tournaments and opted to implement ledge grab limits into their rule sets to "please the crowd," whilst not banning MK.

So, this begs the question: How do we feel about ledge grab limits? Anti scrooging rules? Are they warranted, or are they uh, "scrubby" in nature?

 

[MarKO X]

The problem is that you don't make any point. And the ones you do are garbage and usually filled with emoticons.

And the ones you make are ignorant, but are disguised as important stuff due the color red.

 

[Orion*]

metaknight sucks he's not even that good my olimar is pro it beats metaknight everytime metaknight just has tornado or should i call it WHOREnado yeah that's how gay metaknight is ban him but yeah he's not that good i just don't like his face.

discuss.

PS: Eureka Seven wasn't even that great of a show.

PPS: Afro type ladies leaning on soundboards aren't even that intriguing.

metaknight isnt as broken as ice climbers autjajtatatajtnatahijta.

fyi noob, eurika is amazing

http://epii.info/anime/2008 Ohayocon/Eureka 7 - Talho.jpg

 

[RDK]

There are so many things wrong with your post, I literally don't know where to start.

From the top!

AGAIN, RDK ignores a completely legitament statement simply because it doesn't matchup with his ideals of what should be banned and what shouldn't.

Wrong. I ignored his post because he has consistently showed a lack of intelligent thought in his posts, most of which amount to useless spam, smiley faces, or things that would be obvious to a five-year-old child.

We ban PLENTY of things in Smash that do not fit your criteria

Once again, just like Marko, you made a blatant assertion without backing it up.

What exactly doesn't fit the criteria? Back up you assertions with content.

that you push around as gospel because that criteria comes from a different community, as DMG (anti-ban last time I checked) stated, Each community should build their own criteria for what is and what is not bannable.

Where are you getting this from? Time and time again I've stated that we haven't pulled the current ban criteria from other communities. If you know anything about SF or the SRK community (which I'm assuming you don't by the content of your posts), you would know that they do things quite different from us.

The criteria has been compiled from past discussions and rulings concerning banned elements of the game. I literally recorded that criteria as the Smash community evolved, and it has been confirmed by discussion amongst the SBR members. In fact you couldn't be more wrong about this if you tried.

You are unwilling to see this, which shows your vast lack of understanding of competative games,

I laughed.

which I could also bring up you using Sagat in SF4 as an example of your lack of understanding. Sagat's dominance in SF4 is in NO WAY comparable to Metaknight in Brawl. Sagat takes up a relatively small number of top spots when compared to Metaknight, and his percent of use is no where near the ammount of Metaknights. Sagat is NOT comparable to Brawl Metaknight.

Please quote one instance where I compared MK to Sagat in Street Fighter.

Good luck.

I can also bring up your vast misunderstanding of basic game design mechanics, as most shown with your feelings about L canceling adding to 'depth' when it reality it is perhaps one of the worst ideas since Ivan Ooze.

Could you expound?

Once again, have fun. This should be interesting.

And the ones you make are ignorant, but are disguised as important stuff do the color red.

Needs moar grammar.

 

[MarKO X]

Needs moar grammar.

Oh look, a fragment.

 

[EmuKiller]

Ah...there are some misconceptions regarding planking/scrooging. I will clarify these at once!

There is no rule in the official BBR rule set regarding planking/scrooging. This being said, the BBR has not confronted planking/scrooging head on.

As it stands, planking/scrooging DO NOT fall under the stalling rule that was implemented long ago. Why we haven't directly tackled these issues, I do not know. But I do know that, in the official BBR rule set, there is not a single reference to "ledge grab limits" or "scrooging limits." These rules were implemented by TOs who felt these strategies were "too powerful/too gay."

This is really important to note, because TOs opted to restrict MK as opposed to banning him.

My personal thoughts on this are that TOs felt it wasn't a smart idea to ban MK because their tournaments would lose numbers in attendance, especially without the BBR backing the decision. Meanwhile, the BBR was busy with other projects and neglected to make an official response to "ledge grab limits." They still have yet to do so.

The first major tournament to introduce a ledge grab limit was...Genesis, I believe. After Genesis was EVO, which also had a ledge grab limit. With people complaining about planking and the lack of an official response by the BBR, TOs turned to the success of these two tournaments and opted to implement ledge grab limits into their rule sets to "please the crowd," whilst not banning MK.

So, this begs the question: How do we feel about ledge grab limits? Anti scrooging rules? Are they warranted, or are they uh, "scrubby" in nature?

And the ones you make are ignorant, but are disguised as important stuff due the color red.

metaknight isnt as broken as ice climbers autjajtatatajtnatahijta.

fyi noob, eurika is amazing

http://epii.info/anime/2008 Ohayocon/Eureka 7 - Talho.jpg

There are so many things wrong with your post, I literally don't know where to start.

From the top!



Wrong. I ignored his post because he has consistently showed a lack of intelligent thought in his posts, most of which amount to useless spam, smiley faces, or things that would be obvious to a five-year-old child.



Once again, just like Marko, you made a blatant assertion without backing it up.

What exactly doesn't fit the criteria? Back up you assertions with content.



Where are you getting this from? Time and time again I've stated that we haven't pulled the current ban criteria from other communities. If you know anything about SF or the SRK community (which I'm assuming you don't by the content of your posts), you would know that they do things quite different from us.

The criteria has been compiled from past discussions and rulings concerning banned elements of the game. I literally recorded that criteria as the Smash community evolved, and it has been confirmed by discussion amongst the SBR members. In fact you couldn't be more wrong about this if you tried.



I laughed.



Please quote one instance where I compared MK to Sagat in Street Fighter.

Good luck.



Could you expound?

Once again, have fun. This should be interesting.



Needs moar grammar.

RDK your font suckssss change it to a better color please.

Orion, I might see that image IF YOU WOULD POST IT CORRECTLY.

Bardull, planking is effective with any character (marth and olimar have better planks than mk) but a metaknight was just the first person to do it.

Marko, you're probably a twelve year old so I'm not even going to listen to your garbage because twelve year olds spew garbage like garbageman from megaman. DISCUSS.

PROOF THAT METAKNIGHT SHOULD NOT BE BANNED!? I'm not sure myself!!

 

[AvaricePanda]

You guys said we ban plenty of things that don't fit the criteria. That isn't a complete argument. How is RDK supposed to counter anything when all you've said was a vague statement? If he does, all that happens is more vague statements and theorycrafting and essentially, arguing over absolutely nothing.

GIVE EXAMPLES. Don't just say things and think they're fact. You think we ban things that don't fit that criteria? Name specifically what they are, so other people can actually respond to your statements.

I can say vague statements that have no worth as well, but that's besides the point. We're trying to find the best course for the future of Brawl here, not win a debate.

 

[RDK]

Oh look, a fragment.

Says the guy who can't form a simple sentence.

Back to grade school with you!

Edit: better EmuKiller?

 

[EmuKiller]

Thank you RDK!! I'm glad I don't fall susceptible to your LOCATION.

PS: Although to be honest I'm still convinced my opinion matters more than yours.

JUST A HEADS UP.

 

[RDK]

Thank you RDK!! I'm glad I don't fall susceptible to your LOCATION.

PS: Although to be honest I'm still convinced my opinion matters more than yours.

JUST A HEADS UP.

Oh well. Ignorance is bliss.

Back on topic: somebody from pro-ban please provide an example of a game element not fitting my criteria.

Thank you.

 

[MarKO X]

Says the guy who can't form a simple sentence.

Back to grade school with you!

Edit: better EmuKiller?

Oh, because I made a simple typo, i can't form simple sentences. Great generalization.

@Emukiller: lol @ you thinking I'm 12. I feel as though that's a compliment considering I take pride in my youthfulness.

 

[Chuee]

Overswarm is a pro omni you're not even on the MD/VA rankings he's better than you so just chill and accept the fact that his opinion matters more because he's better in his respective region. Maybe if you were MEEP I would listen to you but guess what Meep hates metaknight too so it all works out ban mk.

Guys. Just tell me. HOW DO I BEAT TORNADO!?

No answer? Yep. That's what I thought. BAN MK!!!!

OS better than Omni? lmao
LOL YOU CAN'T BEAT NADO, YOU'RE A SCRUB.

 

[BarDulL]

Bardull, planking is effective with any character (marth and olimar have better planks than mk) but a metaknight was just the first person to do it.

Hmm...on the contrary, I have to disagree! As a former Marth main, I can assure you that trying to plank with him is not a smart decision! Olimar's planking is extremely risky as well!

MK has 5 jumps, an uair that comes out incredibly fast and shuttle loop! He is far and above the cast when it comes to planking.

 

[etecoon]

olimar

better at planking

than meta knight.

LOL scr00bs : p

 

[EmuKiller]

They're only risky if you don't know how to play the character! LEARN TO PLAY THEY"RE GOOD CHARACTERS.

HOW DO YOU BEAT TORNADO!? No one has answered this question yet! I play metaknight guys. I PLAY METAKNIGHT. And I'm pro ban! I don't know how my opponents can beat tornado. IN FACT, THEY CAN'T. Not even Ally can beat my tornado! Or Ksizzle's tornado!

Video Proof time!!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZCuKkdUv20

53 tornados. 53. The big five-three. THAT MANY.

 

[Ripple]

They're only risky if you don't know how to play the character! LEARN TO PLAY THEY"RE GOOD CHARACTERS.

HOW DO YOU BEAT TORNADO!? No one has answered this question yet! I play metaknight guys. I PLAY METAKNIGHT. And I'm pro ban! I don't know how my opponents can beat tornado. IN FACT, THEY CAN'T. Not even Ally can beat my tornado! Or Ksizzle's tornado!

Video Proof time!!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZCuKkdUv20

53 tornados. 53. The big five-three. THAT MANY.

at least snake has grenades. check out me vs. zozefup.

DK can't do anything

 

[CRASHiC]

Wrong. I ignored his post because he has consistently showed a lack of intelligent thought in his posts, most of which amount to useless spam, smiley faces, or things that would be obvious to a five-year-old child.

Bull ****. Maybe you should look at your own post which show a stubborn attitude to a game you don't even play. How can you make a judgement on whether or not a character is broken if you don't follow or play the game? Akuma HD Remix was banned on that criteria you posted, and he had matchups very similar to Metaknight AND he wasn't even winning every major tournament. So, explain how Metaknight DOES NOT FIT YOUR CRITERIA IF AN ENTIRE COMMUNITY BASED ON YOUR CRITERIA HAS DECLARED ANOTHER SIMILAR CHARECTER BANNED.

Once again, just like Marko, you made a blatant assertion without backing it up.

What exactly doesn't fit the criteria? Back up you assertions with content.

There are many, many stages that are not broken that are banned in both Melee and Brawl simply for a general feeling of dislike. Many items in Brawl should also not be banned based off of the item tournament.

AND EVEN THEN

We don't have sufficent tournament data for your criteria to rationalize banning items. Its why SRK makes fun of us for doing so. In Melee we have data because of EVO tournaments but nothing in Brawl has yet to show that items should be banned based on the criteria you provided, WHICH AS SERLIN, the CREATOR OF THAT VERY CRITERIA STATES, it must be proven for that criteria to take in effect. Items in Brawl are in no way proven broken.

Where are you getting this from? Time and time again I've stated that we haven't pulled the current ban criteria from other communities. If you know anything about SF or the SRK community (which I'm assuming you don't by the content of your posts), you would know that they do things quite different from us.

The criteria has been compiled from past discussions and rulings concerning banned elements of the game. I literally recorded that criteria as the Smash community evolved, and it has been confirmed by discussion amongst the SBR members. In fact you couldn't be more wrong about this if you tried.

Hahahaha, the man who says Sagat in SF4 is comparable to Metaknight says I don't know much about Street Fighter.

THERE HAS BEEN NO DISCUSSION ON A CRITERIA SET FORTH WHAT SO EVER YOU ARE PULLIN THAT SHIEAT OUT YOUR ***. IN FACT, DMG a BACK ROOM MEMBER complained about there being NO DISCUSSION about the criteria for which he must be banned, so now, where is this BACK ROOM DISCUSSION FROM THE SBR ON THAT SAID CRITERIA, even so, DMG REFUTED YOUR CRITERIA, which is basically ripped from Serlin.

Could you expound?

Once again, have fun. This should be interesting.

This is off topic, but L canceling is the dumbest ****ing idea ever. Jesus christ who ever came up with that should be shot in the foot. Its basically a horrible roman cancel. A roman cancel in Guilty Gear is an interesting tactic, you can cut your lag on your attack by hitting two specific buttons at the same time on one frame of the attack at the sacrifice of some of your super meter. The option isn't always there, but that adds depth to the game because of you doing that and your opponent moving in as you had planned and then you roman cancel and then you punish.

HOWEVER, L canceling lacks ALL of this depth and only gives off the input. It does nothing to add depth to the game AS YOU HAD CLAIMED IT DID. It only adds to adds another input to be pressed during the game, which I can quote several Serlin articles as to why this is a bad thing. IT DOES 100 PERCENT NOTHING TO ADD TO THE GAME EXCEPT ITS HARDER TO PLAY FOR NO GOOD REASON. Its a useless button press that should have never been programed into the game and goes to show why Hal should have hired an actual fighting game developer to give advice while designing these games.

 

[EmuKiller]

Alright man I'll check out your video later. But I think you overestimate snake's ability to handle tornado! Even with grenades!

Seriously check out that youtube link I sent. It's pretty hilariously anti-mk!

L-canceling adds more actions, meaning it is tougher to play under high levels of stress which means it is tougher to play in a tournament situation and more focus is put on keeping your cool and not making a technical mistake. It's the same as any other technical aspect of a fighting game. "Why can't ultras be one button? Why can't combos be one button?" So that you can slip up if your opponent notices you slipped. It's the same as any other technical aspect.

 

[BarDulL]

They're only risky if you don't know how to play the character! LEARN TO PLAY THEY"RE GOOD CHARACTERS.

Hmm...speak for yourself!

As far as I know, Olimar's planking includes dropping down *from the ledge*, waiting, then double jump to uair (which, his uair goes through the stage.) However, Olimar has only one jump, and without a recovery like MKs, he can easily get gimped.

 

[Chuee]

Yeah, way to prove a point by posting a video of the character that is worst against tornado.

 

[Orion*]

grenades dont stop nado you noob

 

[BSP]

I think Olimar's best option is to get back on solid ground as fast as possible.

 

[CRASHiC]

grenades dont stop nado you noob

They do in Florida, a Snake can reverse pull out a grenade while inside a tornado. Its pretty sick.

 

[C.J.]

RDK, pictochat doesn't fit the criteria.

 

[Orion*]

They do in Florida, a Snake can reverse pull out a grenade while inside a tornado. Its pretty sick.

i remember that thread. i havent seen anyone in NJ or at pound do it yet sadly so atm ill stay with my strat that snake gets ***** by nado .

if someone does do it to me, i can adjust.

im curious if i just pop them up with nado and they do that, if i can grab them or something or if it doesnt hit me if i cancel it fast enough

i used to cp picto and i honestly think that stage is ********. ive seen a LOT of tournament matches lost to random spikes and ****

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

We can't ban a character based on artificially dumbing him down alone, or we would've banned Jigglypuff and Peach for their ability to stall in Melee.

Sure, I guess that means we can put the IDC back in the game, right?

If you get IDC'd, suck it up IMO.

I've explained why IDC, Jigglypuff, and Peach bans are different before many times but I guess I can do it again!

The difference between these bans and a Ledge Grab ban is that these bans in place represent minor changes in a character's move set that are easily enforceable. If you add a LGL to stop Meta Knight from planking every single character is affected. If you add a rule saying only MK has a LGL then you admit MK is broken in a way that no one else is, when in fact everyone else has access to said mechanic. If a character cannot play on the same plane everyone else is when all else is equal, they are broken.

So, this begs the question: How do we feel about ledge grab limits? Anti scrooging rules? Are they warranted, or are they uh, "scrubby" in nature?

Ledge grab limits are bad for the game for reasons I stated above. They are instituted as a microban to address a single character with an overarching gameplay change that potentially affects more than the character it is aiming to address. ROB and Pit are great on the edge for instance and spend a lot of time there but dont' necessarily "plank" (or not very successfully, they are easily taken care of there). By instituting these rules, we are asking players (specifically MK players) not to play to win. We are asking them to make concessions. We are asking them to not do something we don't like because it's "gay." Either MK is allowed to play to win or he is bannable. Ban him or let planking, circle verbing, and other various gayness to reign; don't pussyfoot in the middle.

So yeah, these rules are scrubby, moreso than any character ban.

 

[RDK]

RDK, pictochat doesn't fit the criteria.

I don't agree with Pictochat being banned.

CRASHIC: not only did you fail to format the quote properly, but you completely ignored the most important parts of my post.

Please find one instance of me comparing MK to Sagat in SF4. Until you can back up your assertions you have no credibility with me. You're in the Debate Hall; you should know better.

Thank you and good luck.

 

[Mic_128]

We don't have sufficent tournament data for your criteria to rationalize banning items. Its why SRK makes fun of us for doing so. In Melee we have data because of EVO tournaments but nothing in Brawl has yet to show that items should be banned based on the criteria you provided, WHICH AS SERLIN, the CREATOR OF THAT VERY CRITERIA STATES, it must be proven for that criteria to take in effect. Items in Brawl are in no way proven broken.

Randomly appearing exploding capsules in front of you while you're attacking. Until capsules are able to be switched on/off, items will never be popular for tournaments.

 

[BSP]

mic are you talking about melee or brawl? I thought there was an off switch for capsules in brawl :/

 

[CRASHiC]

RDK, there have been huge amounts of Metaknight threads and huge amounts of your stupidity and I do not have the time to do so as I have to balance a long distance relationship, college, and work, at the moment, I can only focus with compating your current stupidty and your past.

Secondly, you continue to distract from real issues by complaining about grammar and go so far as to complain about quote formatting. Honestly, if you cling to these things then it only goes to show your lack of understanding within the argument and your desire to prove yourself higher than Brawl players your pompious prick.

And if THAT was the most important part, the part that didn't even relate to Metaknight or your criteria for banning Metaknight, then I think we are done here.

I don't agree with Pictochat being banned.

Based on what experience/data might I add?

Randomly appearing exploding capsules in front of you while you're attacking. Until capsules are able to be switched on/off, items will never be popular for tournaments.

That's in Melee and why they are banned in Melee based on Evo results. You can turn capsules off in Brawl ya know.

 

[C.J.]

I don't agree with Pictochat being banned.

CRASHIC: not only did you fail to format the quote properly, but you completely ignored the most important parts of my post.

Please find one instance of me comparing MK to Sagat in SF4. Until you can back up your assertions you have no credibility with me. You're in the Debate Hall; you should know better.

Thank you and good luck.

You never asked for a ban that you agree with that doesn't match the criteria. You asked for a ban. I provided one. So, until it gets unbanned, assuming it does, you need to revise your criteria, or rephrase your statements.
*shrug*
I honestly don't care, just pointing out that I did what you said.

 

[RDK]

RDK, there have been huge amounts of Metaknight threads and huge amounts of your stupidity and I do not have the time to do so as I have to balance a long distance relationship, college, and work, at the moment, I can only focus with compating your current stupidty and your past.

Secondly, you continue to distract from real issues by complaining about grammar and go so far as to complain about quote formatting. Honestly, if you cling to these things then it only goes to show your lack of understanding within the argument and your desire to prove yourself higher than Brawl players your pompious prick.

And if THAT was the most important part, the part that didn't even relate to Metaknight or your criteria for banning Metaknight, then I think we are done here.

Yes I think we are done here. I have no intention of debating with people who can't provide a simple example to back up their assertions.

Enjoy the block list.

 

[CRASHiC]

Yes I think we are done here. I have no intention of debating with people who can't provide a simple example to back up their assertions.

Enjoy the block list.

**** YOU YOU **** SUCKING DUMB *** ***** MOTHER ****ER I PROVIDED THE EXAMPLE OF ITEMS IN BRAWL AND YOU COMPLETELY IGNORE IT YOU IGNORANT DIP **** RAT **** RING MEAT. What the **** is a matter with you? You come in here and complain about other people intellgent and lack of understanding and lack of debating abilities, when you SHOWCASE ALL OF THESE QUALITIES MORE THAN ANYONE IN THIS THREAD. You REFUSE to respond to ANY real cases brought against you. GET ***** IN THE ****ING HEAD ***** BY MY BIG FACK BLACK **** MOTHER ****ER>

 

[Jack Kieser]

Randomly appearing exploding capsules in front of you while you're attacking. Until capsules are able to be switched on/off, items will never be popular for tournaments.

I know other people have quoted you, but...

ALL containers are turned off in ISP. All. The only item that can do anywhere near that is the Gooey Bomb, and that's Counterpick.

I'm saying this because it shows how little is known about this subject. Mic is a smart dude, and he's a moderator, at that.

EDIT: ... ... ...no one **** with CRASHiC. Please.

 

[Mic_128]

mic are you talking about melee or brawl? I thought there was an off switch for capsules in brawl :/

That's in Melee and why they are banned in Melee based on Evo results. You can turn capsules off in Brawl ya know.

Where?

 

[CRASHiC]

I believe its done by turning off boxes and/or exploding boxes. I'd have to go test, its been a while since I've played with items. I can say with 100 percent certainty it can be done however.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Randomly appearing exploding capsules in front of you while you're attacking. Until capsules are able to be switched on/off, items will never be popular for tournaments.

First, I was for some reason under the impression that there are no randomly exploding capsules or that you could turn them off.

Second, Smash Balls are in no way random nor do they produce capsules or boxes.

 

[Jack Kieser]

I believe its done by turning off boxes and/or exploding boxes. I'd have to go test, its been a while since I've played with items. I can say with 100 percent certainty it can be done however.

This. If you turn off the item "Containers", then ALL containers (boxes, barrels, capsules, etc.) are turned off.

 

[Mic_128]

I'll check that, but I still remember seeing capsules appear when I've just had pokeballs and assist trophies on in the past.

 

[Orion*]

**** YOU YOU **** SUCKING DUMB *** ***** MOTHER ****ER I PROVIDED THE EXAMPLE OF ITEMS IN BRAWL AND YOU COMPLETELY IGNORE IT YOU IGNORANT DIP **** RAT **** RING MEAT. What the **** is a matter with you? You come in here and complain about other people intellgent and lack of understanding and lack of debating abilities, when you SHOWCASE ALL OF THESE QUALITIES MORE THAN ANYONE IN THIS THREAD. You REFUSE to respond to ANY real cases brought against you. GET ***** IN THE ****ING HEAD ***** BY MY BIG FACK BLACK **** MOTHER ****ER>

that was beautiful =.=