Official Metaknight Discussion

[theunabletable]

Because Peach is great against ICs. Have you ever tried to grab a Peach that doesn't want to get grabbed? Try grabbing one with the worst grab in the game. Her moves have no lag, she can land whenever and wherever she wants, and her moves separate them really well.

Can't she get blizz-*****?

I've never actually fought a good Peach player with ICs, so I really don't know the matchup, but I can see why she'd be so difficult to land a grab on.

 

[Cook]

She can get HIT by blizzard, yes. But she has turnips. If Peach thinks they're gonna blizzard, or sees it coming then she can float back, pull a turnip, hit them with it. Unless they're on FD blizzard isn't a huge problem, and it doesn't make them able to grab her. Without grabs they have a VERY hard time killing her, so she doesn't die because they can't grab her.

 

[Hylian]

People who don't think Peach beats ICs are ********. Why do you think Lain uses DDD or Marth against Peach players? Because Peach is great against ICs. Have you ever tried to grab a Peach that doesn't want to get grabbed? Try grabbing one with the worst grab in the game. Her moves have no lag, she can land whenever and wherever she wants, and her moves separate them really well. Anyway, it's dumb in general to think ICs would dominate with MK gone. Without MK, Snake will be the best character. He ***** ICs. Hard to dominate when you can't beat the best character. Peach, on the other hand, will be WAY better without MK because he is the only person that is REALLY bad for her. No MK means more Peaches, means watch out ICs.

People aren't ******** because they have different opinions on match-ups than you. Try being more open-minded.

I think Peach vs IC's is even or slightly in IC's favor. I've played pretty much every top peach in the nation and have a winning record vs all of them except praxis, who I'm 1-1 with in money matches. Granted I used GW in the mm's but I have still played IC's against them and understand the match-up and play with a very good peach player pretty frequently.

On the other hand I think Rob/Snake/Diddy all beat IC's pretty solidly and other IC mains disagree so *shrugs*.


Edit: If you don't have considerable experience against a high tournament placing IC player or play IC's yourself well then you probably don't know enough about them to discuss their match-ups. We have a lot of new desynchs that are very useful. SD/IDD/DD/DDD etc and a lot of these give us options we didn't have before. Blizzard is very useful against every character using the SD/IDD desynchs.

 

[Nicole]

its probably even, no top peach has played a top IC except for maybe drk.pch and meep

Yo. I'm not a -TOP- Peach (as you well know, Rip). I played Lain in tournament, and he did not use ICs against me. He used DDD and Marth. Now why would he use these two characters if the MU between Peach and ICs is even? Surely he isn't scared of me, a girl player using the 19th best character in the game? Surely he would have the best chance of beating me using HIS MAIN, if his main goes even with my character and his secondaries also go even with my character.

Peach beats ICs. That's all there is to it. If the Peach plays correctly and the match isn't taking place on FD, ICs will never get a grab.

PS - Hylian, I don't think your MMs count as evidence of ICs beating Peach if you didn't actually play ICs against Peach in them!

PPS - Anyways, I support a ban on MK, that guy totally blows.

 

[Hylian]

Lain goes Marth/DDD vs people he knows he is just better than all the time, it has nothing to do with match-ups. Peach vs IC's is annoying to play as IC's but it doesn't mean peach wins.

 

[Cook]

Ok, Hylian, are you going to NO KOAST 3? Play Nicole with ICs, see if you change your mind. She plays against ICs every week. I don't actually PLAY ICs or Peach, but I see the matches every week, I know how it works. And I'm confused. You say you beat them with G&W, but PLAYED them with ICs and know the matchup. Did you BEAT them with ICs? Did they know the matchup at all?

 

[Cook]

Lain goes Marth/DDD vs people he knows he is just better than all the time, it has nothing to do with match-ups. Peach vs IC's is annoying to play as IC's but it doesn't mean peach wins.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

She BEAT his Marth and NEARLY beat his DDD. They were playing for top 8 in LOSER'S bracket. Trust me, he was not sandbagging. He won with an edgehog, last stock. Don't just make assumptions.

 

[Nicole]

Lain goes Marth/DDD vs people he knows he is just better than all the time, it has nothing to do with match-ups. Peach vs IC's is annoying to play as IC's but it doesn't mean peach wins.

WAAYYYYYY to judge me for being a girl, ****.

We were playing for top 8 in loser's bracket. I beat Lain's Marth second game after I barely lost to his DDD first game. You think he wanted to lose the last game to me and get 7th at a tournament AGAIN?

LAAAAAWWWWWLLLLLLLLLLL.

PS - thanks for making a challenge for me, Cook.

 

[theunabletable]

WAAYYYYYY to judge me for being a girl, ****.

I didn't see him judging you for being a girl.

 

[Yink]

I didn't see him judging you for being a girl.

I second that...I think he was just judging you as any normal person.

 

[Kuraudo]

... I don't recall Hylian saying anything about your gender, Ironboots.

Just saying. Good **** with making it close though.

[EDIT]

WOW too late. LMAO

 

[Orion*]

ics dont have to necessarily grab characters, but moreso outright camp them. if they get grabbed thats just a bonus

if ics camp with the desperation to time someone out i honestly dont see how sonic is going to get past them but perhaps i havent experienced espy
people dont play ics gay enough

V statistically you do suck. i cant blame him. look at your name let alone the character that you play LOL

 

[Nicole]

Guys, way to miss the point that he saw my 'unknown' name and thought, LOL, Lain didn't care, you're a ****ing scrub "Iron-boots."

MY BAD THOUGH, I AM SORRY HYLIAN FOR ACCUSING YOU OF THINKING I WAS A WORTHLESS GIRL PLAYER AND INSTEAD YOU THOUGHT I WAS JUST A WORTHLESS PLAYER.

Really sorry. Pros who see an 'unknown' and instantly assume they suck just really rub me the wrong way.

 

[Hylian]

Ok, Hylian, are you going to NO KOAST 3? Play Nicole with ICs, see if you change your mind. She plays against ICs every week. I don't actually PLAY ICs or Peach, but I see the matches every week, I know how it works. And I'm confused. You say you beat them with G&W, but PLAYED them with ICs and know the matchup. Did you BEAT them with ICs? Did they know the matchup at all?

Yes I beat them with IC's, just they only wanted to MM my GW.

And I will make sure to play her if I go. And aren't you the guy who screamed at me in the middle of our tournament match at NKv2?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

She BEAT his Marth and NEARLY beat his DDD. They were playing for top 8 in LOSER'S bracket. Trust me, he was not sandbagging. He won with an edgehog, last stock. Don't just make assumptions.

Nice. Sorry I assumed, major props to her. Still doesn't change my opinion about the match-up, especially if they didn't play it.

WAAYYYYYY to judge me for being a girl, ****.

We were playing for top 8 in loser's bracket. I beat Lain's Marth second game after I barely lost to his DDD first game. You think he wanted to lose the last game to me and get 7th at a tournament AGAIN?

LAAAAAWWWWWLLLLLLLLLLL.

PS - thanks for making a challenge for me, Cook.

Whoa what? First of all I had no idea you were a girl, or even who you were actually. That has nothing to do with anything I said. I know who you are now, I saw you at NK2. I was saying lain does that from talking with lain(I teamed with him remember?) and watching his pool/tournament matches. He DOES do that, but that doesn't mean he did it to you. It just leads me to assume he does because I've personally seen him do it before. No hard feelings and props for doing so well against him.

I feel like you two are kind of blowing this out of proportion. I don't have any harsh feelings I just disagree that peach beats IC's and I think that using one person as a basis for the claim isn't really going to convince anyone. I know lain thinks peach is one of IC's hardest match-ups, and I also think peach is one of IC's hardest match-ups, I just think it's even and disagree with him that she beats them(assuming he thinks that).

Sorry for any trouble. Feel free to PM me if you still want to talk about this.

Can we get back on topic?

 

[Orion*]

has this thread EVER been on topic

to topic i think other people seriously need to try stalling with other characters -.-. mk seriously isnt the only one. god i wish teh spammer still played brawl

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJ8l...0341E480&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=19

 

[Hylian]

Guys, way to miss the point that he saw my 'unknown' name and thought, LOL, Lain didn't care, you're a ****ing scrub "Iron-boots."

MY BAD THOUGH, I AM SORRY HYLIAN FOR ACCUSING YOU OF THINKING I WAS A WORTHLESS GIRL PLAYER AND INSTEAD YOU THOUGHT I WAS JUST A WORTHLESS PLAYER.

Really sorry. Pros who see an 'unknown' and instantly assume they suck just really rub me the wrong way.

No, actually I didn't think that. I didn't even know it was you lain played and I wasn't referring to anyone in particular when I said lain uses other characters a lot versus people he knows he can beat, I know it's true because I've seen him do it in person. It was just a general statement. I'm sorry it offended you and I'm sorry you feel the need to be defensive about it, when I never had a negative thought about you or anyone else in this topic in the first place.

So again, I apologize. All I ask is that you please don't assume I think things like that, because that is absurd if you knew me. I'm a very fair person. Feel free to PM me if anything I said still bothers you.

 

[Cook]

And I will make sure to play her if I go. And aren't you the guy who screamed at me in the middle of our tournament match at NKv2?

Haha, yeah. Sorry. I figured that if MikeHaze can do it, I can do it. I didn't do it loud enough, though. My heart just wasn't in it...
Anyway, you SHOULD remember me as the guy who two-stocked your G&W on Rainbow Cruise with Olimar. (DOUBLE WINK)


As for the topic, I hate MK. That's why I main him now. Also, OS is bombass.

 

[Hylian]

Haha, yeah. Sorry. I figured that if MikeHaze can do it, I can do it. I didn't do it loud enough, though. My heart just wasn't in it...

Haha we banned it in texas after haze did it. It's kind of rude :/. It didn't mess me up IIRC though so *shrugs*


ANYWAYS.


You guys PM me please if you want to keep talking about IC's. Back to metaknight.

 

[Nicole]

Accepted, thanks Hylian. I probably did blow it out of proportion, like I said, pros seeing unknowns and thinking 'scrub' instantly is annoying. But it's understandable.

Orion, when I made this name (which is super gay, as you seemed to notice) I didn't realize that people would ever actually address me as the name I picked, or perhaps I would have chosen differently. Currently, I am too lazy and don't care that much anyway to do the name change you can get from premium.

MK is overcentralizing the metagame, in my humble opinion.

 

[Orion*]

Hmm...I see! True, Snake, ICs, and Diddy are all unique characters. However! That is not the context I had intended "mimic" to be interpreted as!

Each of these characters has a strategy in which they rack up damage, and then kill. In essence, they operate in the same fashion.

However! MK does not have to operate in this fashion. Emphasis on "have to!" There are other fashions in which he can apply himself, and that is the problem!

When discussing MK strategies, there are three in particular that come up, although one isn't nearly as viable as the rest. But, I digress.

1. Planking!
2. Air camping!
3. Scrooging!

Planking and Scrooging are self explanatory. These are fashions MK can operate in aside from "playing normally," to which I mean "racking up damage and then killing the opponent." Both of these strategies can not be mimic'd to the extent that MK is capable of, and these are winning strategies!

Air camping hasn't proven itself to be entirely unbeatable in tournament, so to this end I will concede! However, air camping near an edge is a very powerful tool...and with 5 jumps, it is very difficult for the opponent to catch the Metaknight. This is also another tool in which MK can not be mimic'd to the extent that he is capable of.

As for other characters having the capability to clock someone out...hmm, that is a tough call! In a world without Metaknight, I would presume that Wario might be the most capable of producing such a feat, but to this end I am uncertain. It's not too often that you see a Wario clocking someone out, hah.

you have to go into a match with the intention of timing someone out, wich most people dont do *shrug*.

air planking is overrated, C tier characters can deal with that ****.

try dair camping wolf, you get flat out baired rofl. all you really need to do is time airs inbetween the dairs. Many matchups its better to camp on the ground. (marth, gaw)

even if your character can not necessarily deal with mk in the air, you have to read me, but i do eventually have to land and you can punish it.

 

[Dark.Pch]

How the hell does she do it?

The best killing option ICE have is a 0-death chain grab. Peach limts that option cause she is a hard character to grab. And on top of that, Peach can easily seperate them.

Her turnips go through the blizzard so she can stop that blizzard nonsense. he can even camp them done correctly. Ice blocks stay grounded. Even when lauched in the air. I have a versitale projectile. A turnip. And if you was to shoot ice blocks to stop me from getting turnips, platforms help with this.

Peach can dance on thier shield and they not have much options about it except roll away. If I am in front of them and Dair to a fast fall Nair and jab, they cant do anything about it. Thier grab connects on frame 7. You are getting hit if you try to grab me out of a nair. My jab is 2 frames. I connect with a Nair on yourt shield, you are stuck in it for three frames. And the shield advantage is -7 Which means you have to do something that is & frames or less to hit me. and you get screwed over cause it takes 7 frames to drop your shield. but the hit stun on the shield, which makes it longer. Which is why Peach auto cancelling her moves to Jab is nearly broken. You cant do anything spaced. Best you wait till she jabs twice or roll away. But this is why Peach should usually jab once unless after one jab or an air attack, be wanny be stubburn and try to grab her.

If I danced or your shield while floating:

The first hit of dair comes out on frame 12. If you block all the hits of her dair and tried to get inbetween the second one:

12-7=5

7= time it takes to drop shield
12= the frame her first hit of Dair comes out.
5= an attack you have to do 5 frames or less top hit her before the dair hits you.
But then there is shield stun. As weak as it is in this game, it counts. The shield stun of her last hit is 1. So now you need a 4 frame move to hit her out of inbetween Dair. IC don't have one move that can stop this from the ground that is 4 frames or less. Only think They can do is roll. When under Peach you have no option to punish me or counter attack. And when you get away from me........no grabs.

Peach up close in an air fight beat all of IC moves with Nair. Peach bair and IC Nair is the same frame. So first come, first served. or wait till one attack is dished out. From studying the hit boxes, I think Peach Bair has a lil more range then IC Nair. And Fair has more range then all of thier air attacks. So if Peach is spacing well, IC are losing lots of air rights. They get Peach good when they are below her with Uair. Thats the only air fight they win. Peach up air can beat out thier Dair. My Uair is 8 frames. IC Dair is 9. And Upair has more range. Or Peach can just uptilt it. There is no Dair in the game that beats Peach Uptilt.

When they are off stage, good edguarding can screw them up. And can be gimped with a good turnip game and abusing edge invis frames.

Ledge invincibility: 1-46
Minimum Time on Ledge: 25 frames
Maximum invincibility after ledge drop: 21


- jump -> float gives a maximum of 10 frames invulnerability. If you decide to jump -> float -> land you'll have a max of 7 frames invincibility.
I can float next to the edge if I did not burn my jump and then grab it once again if they try to grab it. Increasing my time to guard that ledge. I an also Float to a Nair near the ledge while still invisible. Her nair is 3 frames. Then can grab the ledge to get a lil more invis frames. Thats about 2 secs or a lil more of you not being able to touch that ledge. If I turnip cancel off the ledge and toss it up or z drop it if you are below, they can get gimped or become really hard to get back on. If all goes wrong, I think Nana wont be able to grab the ledge even if the player makes it back.

There also might be times where IC way try to recover with F-B since it can sometimes be hard to hit them out of it. if they do it close to the ledge and aim for the stage. I can instandly float on to the stage and back air you out. Or even Nair. If I float to land I have 7 frames that can not be touched. Bair is 6 frames and Nair is 3. With Peach being one of the best edegaurders in this game, she has many options to keep one out. And IC dont have much options to make it back on stage, and easy for Peach to snip out of. And you can be gimped out of your recovery.

And if She needed to switch up, to bring more speed since floating is slow and can leave her open on the sides, Peach does not need to be floating to diars to get at you. I can easliely short hop and space them so you can try and Uptilt or even upsmash out of shield. I can to this to Jabs or w/e I want. To have you in the shield and eating it. Them keep the pressure going till I seperate you. So with Blizzard taken care of, I out range you and can space the hell out of you when close, making it hard for you to land a clean shot on me. If you choose to retrat and Blizzard, smart thing for Peach to do is camp you while moving in slowly. to a point you are forced to fight.

Also, Nana is never the target unless her and popo are seperated. When they are together, the Player is the target, not the AI. When they get broken apart, the player should be worring about Nana until popo comes in to save her and sneak attack you. Then your focus goes back to the player. Seriously going after Nana all the time is seriously stupid.

Peach has a good pressure game and can seperate them well without having much to worry about. If the Peach knows the match up well, IC lose.

Rundown:

- You are not hard to seperate.
- You are not hard to gimp.
- You are not hard to edgeguard
- Good pressure game is hard to deal with
- Get out ranged.
- Done right, we can camp you since our turnips go through blizzard.
- You can't Grab Peach that easy, face facts.

its probably even, no top peach has played a top IC except for maybe drk.pch and meep

I never played a top IC player before. And no IC player has ever played a top Peach before.

 

[Hylian]

I've played Kos-mos quite a few times with IC's actually.


Can we PLEASE stop talking about IC's vs Peach. I'm going to start infracting people.

 

[Kuraudo]

Man. Hylian is a really chill guy. Hasn't changed since hanging with him and the rest of the Texas crew at Genesis. I should have stuck around more...

Sorry, I'm terrible at this kind of debate.

Mostly because anything I would say, for either Anti-Ban or Pro-Ban, has already been said. At least, that's how I feel. Only so much I can say before it just goes back to me screaming, "BAN MK!" y'know?

This topic isn't pointless, just that I'm at a loss of anything new to contribute.

 

[Hylian]

Man. Hylian is a really chill guy. Hasn't changed since hanging with him and the rest of the Texas crew at Genesis. I should have stuck around more...

Sorry, I'm terrible at this kind of debate.

Mostly because anything I would say, for either Anti-Ban or Pro-Ban, has already been said. At least, that's how I feel. Only so much I can say before it just goes back to me screaming, "BAN MK!" y'know?

This topic isn't pointless, just that I'm at a loss of anything new to contribute.

I feel the same as you my friend. Everythings been said :/.

 

[theunabletable]

I'll just edit the stuff out. And yeah IC's could do that easily lol.


Metaknight discussion go!

-Hylian

 

[Gates]

In case anyone brings up some bs point about MK being the reason why people quit Brawl, I would like to say that it is not why I quit Brawl. Falco, Diddy, and Wario are all characters who I hate much, much more than I will ever hate MK. Whenever I lost to MK I always though "Oh, I just need to be more careful/not counterpick that stage/etc.". Whenever I lost to Wario, Falco, or Diddy I thought "****ing **** god **** bull**** ***** **** camping *** ***** ***** **** ******** ***** **** *** ***** characters **** **** **** **** ****".

 

[Dark.Pch]

I've played Kos-mos quite a few times with IC's actually.


Can we PLEASE stop talking about IC's vs Peach. I'm going to start infracting people.

The post that I quoted. When I say it I hit the reply button and started doing some homework with frame data and hit boxes. comepare hit boxes with videos and doing some match with frame data. Then determind spacing method to so what wins/loses in what.Then explaining how the match up goes. So I did not even see anything like Nicole post and all till after my post and looking back a few pages.

And in a way this is actually being on topic. People were thinking that if meta was out, IC would be destroying. Which is false, cause meta is not the only character that beats them.

 

[Dekar173]

X is my GF.

Anyway-

MK has the best:

recovery
uair
nair
dair
forward roll
dsmash
dtilt
ftilt
glide
glide attack
neutral B
down B (banned)
up B
Planking (limited)
Best "Priority"
dash dance**

Out of five aerials, 3 of his are the best. Out of 4 B moves, 3 of his are the best. Gimp game? Well, he can gimp you pretty **** well, all while having 0 fear of your offstage game (regardless of which character you are). A mistake leave you vulnerable? Enjoy a frame 5 kill move. Airdodge much? Eat that nado. Lost the lead? Enjoy chasing him for 7 minutes.



Perhaps I'm being too biased? Anyone wanna give some input on this?

 

[Tyr_03]

Nicole is a good peach. But lol at getting all upset when Hylian said nothing about your gender whatsoever. It's not unreasonable for him to make the assumption that Lain is better than someone he's never heard of.

 

[Praxis]

I MM'd Lain once. He went Dedede. I won.

Just sayin'.

Edrees has actually made a very valid case to me for Peach beating ICs. However, due to my region, I've never actually played a good ICs.

I'm pretty sure I'll get ***** the first time, but I'm still willing to MM ya Hylian, as I promised I would

I've had a little side project of trying to break Peach vs MK, and I think I've actually made it into a viable matchup. We'll see what happens when I play M2K at TourneyPlay 4 and VC this next month.

 

[PokemonMasterIRL]

X is my GF.

Anyway-

MK has the best:

recovery
uair
nair
dair
forward roll
dsmash
dtilt
ftilt
glide
glide attack
neutral B
down B (banned)
up B
Planking (limited)
Best "Priority"

Out of five aerials, 3 of his are the best. Out of 4 B moves, 3 of his are the best. Gimp game? Well, he can gimp you pretty **** well, all while having 0 fear of your offstage game (regardless of which character you are). A mistake leave you vulnerable? Enjoy a frame 5 kill move. Airdodge much? Eat that nado. Lost the lead? Enjoy chasing him for 7 minutes.



Perhaps I'm being too biased? Anyone wanna give some input on this?

Pretty well put.

 

[Orion*]

in light of the fact that theres nothing to talk about ban wise ill say to dark pch.s 500 word essay on who peach ***** ice climbers shield.

what if i dont shield. what if i just walk/run away. their shield is *** other than the fact that there are 2 of them. if i dont have them desynced (i.e. popo shielding and nana blizzarding behind him) then why would i challenge you in that situation? i see all these ics approach with dashing shield and its soooo bad.

either desync or even better dont approach rofl.

if i literally just walk around staying just outside your range then heres essentially what happens.

you can keep trying to **** my shield and i will run away.

you will pull a turnip, in wich case i will apply pressure.

if i mess up i recieve a little damage. if you do, you die. yes peach wins. -.-

 

[Hylian]

No seriously, stop talking about Peach vs Ic's, it really has nothing to do with Metaknight.

No more. At all.

 

[BarDulL]

You know what I don't understand? How people don't have trouble in Melee telling the difference between Peach using the Peach Bomber against a wall a few times to recover but were able to tell when she was doing it endlessly for 8 minutes to stall, yet people can't figure out the difference between using the IDC for 8 straight minutes/grabbing and regrabbing the ledge for 8 minutes.

Why does Melee not have this problem? How so? If MK starts winning all tournaments by planking, then we might be able to agree that it is not ban-worthy, but MK HIMSELF isn't even winning all tournaments.

Actually I'd like to know, what makes something ban-worthy?

I will answer your post numerically!

Hmm...well, your first question is a little complicated. Is MK re-grabbing the ledge for 8 minutes "stalling"? You could see it that way, however, what if by re-grabbing the ledge over and over, MK is simply "putting himself in an advantageous position?" Truth is, MK is quite good on the ledge, mainly because of the mechanics of the character. He isn't intentionally stalling, per se, rather he is simply putting himself in the most advantageous position possible. Is there anything wrong with that? It's sort of like how, in brawl, Marth players will sit in the middle of the stage so that the chances of getting punished/gimped are slim. That is why it is very difficult to define "planking" as "stalling."

Your second question...I might not be the right person to answer, but I will try! As it stands, this problem...hasn't occured -yet- in Melee. It is to my knowledge that Puff is quite good at ledge stalling...however, no Puff players have gone to such lengths as it stands...although I did hear a rumor that King did it to Silent Wolf at one MLG event, but I can't give you much more detail than that. As for the rest of the characters in Melee, I do not believe any characters are capable of "ledge stalling" as effectively as Brawl's Metaknight. They lack multiple jumps/safety on the ledge.

Now, the problem with MK not winning several events with planking is...well, they haven't had a chance, technically! Unfortunately, TOs prematurely banned the technique indirectly by implementing "Ledge Grab Limits" into their rule sets. Because of this, Metaknight players never had the opportunity to use planking to its fullest...however, we have seen MKs go just below the limit by planking at the end of a match. It is quite possible that MK would be winning every event IF there were no ledge grab limits in place, but without the BBR budging, TOs have been continuing to implement these LGLs into their rule sets to further entice players to come to their events. It's a sticky situation, to be sure!

As for what makes something ban-worthy...that is a very hard question to answer! In fact, we've gone over this numerous times, but to no avail...criteria is a completely subjective issue...some say if something is too over-centralized, it warrants a ban...but in response, someone will say "if something is being over-centralized, why should use that as an excuse to ban something? Why are we trying to disuade players from 'playing to win?'" Very annoying stuff, subjectivity is!

 

[Orion*]

X is my GF.

Anyway-

MK has the best:

recovery -
uair - i agree but i think you underrate how good samus's is
nair - peach has like the same thing
dair -
forward roll - lucario????....
dsmash - olimar O.o?
dtilt
ftilt - SNAKE
glide - PIT LOLOLOL
glide attack - PIT LOLOLOLOL
neutral B - FALCO
down B (banned) - DIDDY
up B -
Planking (limited)
Best "Priority"

Out of five aerials, 3 of his are the best. Out of 4 B moves, 3 of his are the best. Gimp game? Well, he can gimp you pretty **** well, all while having 0 fear of your offstage game (regardless of which character you are). A mistake leave you vulnerable? Enjoy a frame 5 kill move. Airdodge much? Eat that nado. Lost the lead? Enjoy chasing him for 7 minutes.



Perhaps I'm being too biased? Anyone wanna give some input on this?

thats off the top of my head

 

[Exceladon City]

I'm still kinda curious as to why this debate is up again. He's not going anywhere. MK is the ******* relative that comes in and ruins your life. You can't not be related to him so you might as well deal with him.

 

[Dekar173]

I will answer your post numerically!

Hmm...well, your first question is a little complicated. Is MK re-grabbing the ledge for 8 minutes "stalling"? You could see it that way, however, what if by re-grabbing the ledge over and over, MK is simply "putting himself in an advantageous position?" Truth is, MK is quite good on the ledge, mainly because of the mechanics of the character. He isn't intentionally stalling, per se, rather he is simply putting himself in the most advantageous position possible. Is there anything wrong with that? It's sort of like how, in brawl, Marth players will sit in the middle of the stage so that the chances of getting punished/gimped are slim. That is why it is very difficult to define "planking" as "stalling."

Your second question...I might not be the right person to answer, but I will try! As it stands, this problem...hasn't occured -yet- in Melee. It is to my knowledge that Puff is quite good at ledge stalling...however, no Puff players have gone to such lengths as it stands...although I did hear a rumor that King did it to Silent Wolf at one MLG event, but I can't give you much more detail than that. As for the rest of the characters in Melee, I do not believe any characters are capable of "ledge stalling" as effectively as Brawl's Metaknight. They lack multiple jumps/safety on the ledge.

Now, the problem with MK not winning several events with planking is...well, they haven't had a chance, technically! Unfortunately, TOs prematurely banned the technique indirectly by implementing "Ledge Grab Limits" into their rule sets. Because of this, Metaknight players never had the opportunity to use planking to its fullest...however, we have seen MKs go just below the limit by planking at the end of a match. It is quite possible that MK would be winning every event IF there were no ledge grab limits in place, but without the BBR budging, TOs have been continuing to implement these LGLs into their rule sets to further entice players to come to their events. It's a sticky situation, to be sure!

As for what makes something ban-worthy...that is a very hard question to answer! In fact, we've gone over this numerous times, but to no avail...criteria is a completely subjective issue...some say if something is too over-centralized, it warrants a ban...but in response, someone will say "if something is being over-centralized, why should use that as an excuse to ban something? Why are we trying to disuade players from 'playing to win?'" Very annoying stuff, subjectivity is!

tl;dr bardull uses sagat in sf4, nu in BB, and jiggs in melee

 

[Praxis]

MK's nair is nearly identical to Peach's except it has sword priority. D:

 

[BarDulL]

tl;dr bardull uses sagat in sf4, nu in BB, and jiggs in melee

ON THE CONTRARY MY GOOD SIR!

...

I use Ryu in SF4. But this is off topic!

 

[Kuraudo]

@ Praxis

Is it because of how fast NAir comes out, or what?

Also, Peach's isn't multi-hit on people at low percents, is it?

[EDIT]

SORRY HYLIAN. It was just an honest question that stemmed from a comparison of MK's NAir. ^^;