Official Metaknight Discussion

[LanceStern]

By strength you mean what? I can't believe you put that

It doesn't matter if he can't rack % and knock off stage (which he can, I don't understand why you say that) when he can GIMP just about everyone at < 70% or just outright kill at 90% with his moves. He still KOs great with Fsmash, Dsmash, shuttle loop, fair, nair, not to mention dair/nair gimps.

And then he momentum cancels with the best of characters considering his weight. He has lightning fast moves with little lag.

 

[Dark.Pch]

Peach:Falco is even.

Peach loses to MK, Snake, and Falco.

G&W are even or 55:45.

Fixed for accurate info.

 

[Omni]

By strength you mean what? I can't believe you put that

It doesn't matter if he can't rack % and knock off stage (which he can, I don't understand why you say that) when he can GIMP just about everyone at < 70% or just outright kill at 90% with his moves. He still KOs great with Fsmash, Dsmash, shuttle loop, fair, nair, not to mention dair/nair gimps.

And then he momentum cancels with the best of characters considering his weight. He has lightning fast moves with little lag.

Did you purposely ignore all of my other points, or does the fact that you did not address them mean you agree with them?

Read the entire post.

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

If we ran MK banned tournaments, and statistics showed there still was a dominant character, wouldn't we be right back where we started?

Is there any way running MK banned tournaments can help the anti-ban's cause? It seems it would either help pro-ban (if there is no dominant character) or do nothing at all (if there's another dominant character).

Next in line to dominate would be Snake or Diddy but Falco does rather well against both of them while ICs and Pika beat Falco but Diddy and Snake beat ICs and Pika. It's impossible to have another dominant character in MK banned tournies.

 

[Chuee]

Fixed for accurate info.

O yay more Peach MU arguing.

 

[Punishment Divine]

A broken character is a character that does not fit the standard laws within a game but rather ignores some or all of these laws giving the character a substantial advantage against the remaining characters.

The "laws" that exist in Brawl relate to a character's attributes that include strength, speed, versatility, weight, recovery, range, size, and other unique attributes that only certain characters have such as invincibility frames on attacks.

Metaknight has great speed, versatility, recovery, range, size (in regards to being a target), and many unique attributes. In regards to these attributes I believe it is fair to assume that he has the best recovery, the best versatility, and the best unique attributes which include a number of moves in his moveset.

Metaknight lacks strength and weight. This is important to understand. This means Metaknight lacks the strength to remove opponents stocks by the normal method of increasing their % and knocking them outside of the arena. This also means Metaknight lacks the weight to stay within the arena once he has reached a certain % that is lower than the average. He can make up with his lack of strength by using his better attributes to gimp characters off the stage.

An important thing to note is that Metaknight does not have projectiles.

All I've stated above are reasons why Metaknight should be top tier. He WOULD be broken if the rest of the cast possessed significantly lower traits but this is not the case. We have characters that can live to insanely large percents. We have characters with ridiculously good projectiles. We have characters who have the ability to chaingrab. We have characters who are guaranteed a kill after a grab. With all of these abilities combined with a player's ability to maximize a character's potential through the power of their own intelligence, I will boldly say that they can take competing to a level that is very close to Metaknight's.

What you have given me, Punishment, are the attributes that make MK the best character. All of the best characters are essentially "playing a different" game or more accurately "playing their own game". Diddy's banana usage/game is completely different from the rest of the cast. Having the ability to spawn an infinite amount of extremely helpful ITEMS is pretty hardcore. Snake living to 150%+ while also having one of the fastest/strongest kill moves in the game is pretty frightening. Ice Climbers being able to remove an entire stock off your character from one grab is a big deal.

In the end, though, it may be a matter of perception and preference more than anything.

I realize I gave you the qualities of an amazing character. The question was not "What makes MK so broken", however, but rather "Do you think MK belongs in this game."

I gave you my answer, which was no, he is a Melee character in Brawl.

I also highly disagree with your opinion on MK's strength. Shuttle Loop lacking power? Fsmash's amazing range and cooldown time lacking power? Dsmashes speed and multi-hit which catches fallers, that isn't a powerful move?

You also seem to forget that MK will not always kill his opponent by outright sending him into the blastzone, causing instantaneous death and that this is actually a POSITIVE. instead of having a move which is easily DI'd like Marth's fsmash, or Snake's Ftilt, he kills his opponents with moves which can barely be DI'd and in a manner which can cause the opponent death at ANY time. His dair, nair, and Shuttle Loop have a habit of killing characters like Snake, Wario, Diddy, hell any character in the game at percents they wouldn't ordinarily die at due to the fact that MK's options enable him to send opponents at UNHEARD of angles and points-of-no-return. This, along with the fact that, quite frankly, it isn't difficult to send an opponent off the stage with MK, particularly due to his amazing dash grab (another thing I missed in my comparison to a Melee character: MK seems to have Melee Marth grab range and setups after grabs, even from a dash) and even shieldgrab range, coupled with his throws which seem as tough they are MADE to get the opponent off the stage in the exact positions MK desire, more than make up for his lack of vertical or straight-up horizontal kill power. Dthrow forces you to pick between getting juggled or going off the stage, fthrow forces you to either go offstage or get hit by the Shuttle Loop that follows, and bthrow just throws you off stage.

I will agree that his weight hinders him slightly. This is the only thing that keeps me hoping that Snake can still beat MK. However, he does have one of the best momentum cancels in the game, that being his 2 (3?) frame uair. He also has the benefit of, due to his size and mobility like you had admitted to, being able to avoid getting hit.

I do not believe lacking a projectile is important. In my opinion, Meta Knight IS a projectile.

Believe me when I say I would not like to ban ANY character. I hate the idea of removing a character who I do not perceive as completely unbeatable YET. However, if my insight is correct, the future for Brawl will not be positive, not only due to MK, but the playstyles he seems to be forcing.

I just posted a big, long post in a Ban MK thread. FML -_-

 

[Inaphyt]

This discussion is too much for my little mind.

I'll say this leave mk in and what you'll be left with is a game where the odd rogue character will come in and dethrone mk once in a while. This will be the highlight of brawl other than that, diddy will get defeated over time, icies will get worse and worse, most characters can deal with snake even mid/high tiers, falco's recovery get's more and more predictable.

Mk continues to dominate like a plague.

ciao

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

This is probably the stupidest thing I've read since entering this thread.

Congratulations.

Ditto. This is unacceptable.

 

[Chuee]

I also highly disagree with your opinion on MK's strength. Shuttle Loop lacking power? Fsmash's amazing range and cooldown time lacking power? Dsmashes speed and multi-hit which catches fallers, that isn't a powerful move?

Dsmash doesn't have power.
Almost every time you see Ally vs a mk, he always lives past 150%.

 

[Omni]

I realize I gave you the qualities of an amazing character. The question was not "What makes MK so broken", however, but rather "Do you think MK belongs in this game."

I gave you my answer, which was no, he is a Melee character in Brawl.

I also highly disagree with your opinion on MK's strength. Shuttle Loop lacking power? Fsmash's amazing range and cooldown time lacking power? Dsmashes speed and multi-hit which catches fallers, that isn't a powerful move?

You also seem to forget that MK will not always kill his opponent by outright sending him into the blastzone, causing death. His dair, nair, and Shuttle Loop have a habit of killing characters like Snake, Wario, Diddy, hell any character in the game at percents they wouldn't ordinarily die at due to the fact that MK's options enable him to send opponents at UNHEARD of angles and points-of-no-return. This, along with the fact that, quite frankly, it isn't difficult to send an opponent off the stage with MK, particularly due to his amazing dash grab (another thing I missed in my comparison to a Melee character: MK seems to have Melee Marth grab range and setups after grabs, even from a dash) and even shieldgrab range, coupled with his throws which seem as tough they are MADE to get the opponent off the stage in the exact positions MK desire, more than make up for his lack of vertical or straight-up horizontal kill power. Dthrow forces you to pick between getting juggled or going off the stage, fthrow forces you to either go offstage or get hit by the Shuttle Loop that follows, and bthrow just throws you off stage.

I will agree that his weight hinders him slightly. This is the only thing that keeps me hoping that Snake can still beat MK. However, he does have one of the best momentum cancels in the game, that being his 2 (3?) frame uair. He also has the benefit of, due to his size and mobility like you had admitted to, being able to avoid getting hit.

I do not believe lacking a projectile is important. In my opinion, Meta Knight IS a projectile.

Believe me when I say I would not like to ban ANY character. I hate the idea of removing a character who I do not perceive as completely unbeatable YET. However, if my insight is correct, the future for Brawl will not be positive, not only due to MK, but the playstyles he seems to be forcing.

I just posted a big, long post in a Ban MK thread. FML -_-

Haha, yeah, I feel your pain.

Understand that I am comparing strength with the rest of the cast. This includes Snake's monstrous up-tilt, Kirby's f-smash, G&W's f-smash, etc. When you compare the strength of these moves with MK's d-smash it pales in comparison.

I also didn't forget. If you read what I said carefully, I specifically said MK can make up for his lack of strength with his ability to gimp.

MK's grab range is not Marth grab range. o_O See: DDD.

MK not having any projectiles is very important. It means he cannot play keep away games like Snake and Diddy. It means that if he behind, he MUST approach. This means players like Snake, Falcol, and Diddy can sit back and camp forcing MK to play their obstacle game. At the same time, if MK gets the lead he can force people to play his planking game (altho' you'd be dumb to try that against Snake).

If I wanted, I could go down the list of every high tier character and do what you just did. The point is that they all possess unique abilities that allow them to combat each other and MK in a different manner. Diddy being able to score a KO off a banana toss is crucial. Snake's projectile game is ******** compared the majority of the cast. Ice Climbers successfully removing a stock off ONE grab. Everyone has their "holy **** look what i can do" traits. Metaknight essentially just has the best combination.

 

[demonictoonlink]

Yea yea pikachu was good but isai could beat him with LINK.

Is this happening in brawl? no never ever. This is a terrible comparison.

Yes. Ally beat MKs with Falcon.

 

[Sorto]

You boys will never get to the point in this thread will you. Just like the other meta threads.

You know what, I would just keep it simple. One character getting so much attention and taking over 1- top 10 more than any character. So many useless topics about meta till this day and people still can't figure out how broken he is. ****, sheik did not get this much attention in melee. Nearly 2 years and de que diablo, same **** once again. And people don't know what to do. Making a topic that is not gonna die, not getting anywhere, and when people finalyy get tired of the thread to close it, there will be another topic on meta In a few months, with the same ****.

And you know what, bann that *******. Why? Gonna keep it simple, No one can freaking prove meta is not broken, hurting the meta game or taking over the game. Have not seen anything on that matter. As for the other way around? yea I seen plenty. Also if M2K was to actually learn more things than just his options with meta and simple stuff like Z grabbing, I think he be taking over. He does not know much outside his character options and look at how he does. Only 2 people can beat him. If that is not saying enough then idk what it.

People make no sense. Random talk that goes in circles. Boys never gonna get to the point. Real talk. Like wtf is the point of this **** now? idk anymore.

i feel that there is a fairly large reason that people do not subscribe to this philosophy. To rightfully ban mk, you must prove that he is guilty of being broken or unfair. This proof should prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. It is common to take that one is innocent until proven guilty. This issue here lies in the fact that antiban sees your proof and says it may in the future prove to result in an unfair character but atm it moreso shows just a good character. Often people feel a character is broken if he makes a majority of the cast unplayable 70:30 on 19characters. perhaps if he had a majority of wins 51 percent. Neithers true

 

[MarKO X]

I have an idea...

how about we pretend this ban MK thing never started?

I was being serious.

Everyone keeps talking about how certain characters would become more viable if MetaKnight were to get banned, but few, if anyone, has talked about the actual politics that would come with MetaKnight getting banned. See, while a small majority of the community is pro-ban, the rest, which is obviously a significant amount of people, are anti-ban. Right there, banning MK would create an even bigger riff in the community than this topic has already brought up. Besides that, certain regions aren't going to ban MK regardless (if they don't follow the SBR ruleset word for word, why would they follow the MK ban?) I'm practically 100% sure that NJ won't be banning MK, and any reputable tourney in NY that wants NJ to get in on the action will thus not ban MK. I also remember reading somewhere that Texas doesn't really want MK banned either (although I don't have a source, so I might have imagined reading that, but if I didn't it came from Hylian, but plz don't sue me if I'm wrong.)

Even if one region, especially a region as dominant, influential, and if nothing else, popular, as NY/NJ doesn't ban MK in their tourneys despite the SBR decision to do so, there will probably be this outrageous controversy in any big regional or national that will have MK banned, thus further dividing the community more than the issue of banning MK has already done. The same can be said about a regional or national that doesn't ban MK. And from the looks of things, the community won't survive is the community is literally split in two that badly.

The fact of the matter is, despite all of the great data and information that the pro-ban side has collected, it's very inconclusive. Some form of a graph showed that tourney attendance is down, but the nationals seem to just increase in number, which shows a healthy game, opposite that graph. And while MK is clearly the central focus on Brawl to the point where the Mach Tornado has more threads than any other single attack in Brawl (unless you can prove me wrong), he's not winning national tourneys. Seriously, when I saw the results of Pound 4, I was speechless and my mind was blown because there were 4-5 MKs in the top 8 but the winner was a Diddy. Say what you want about sample size, top level vs. mid level, etc., these blips in the system (

Spoiler

as well as certain rules

) are keeping MK in the game.

Does this mean that pro-ban should just give up? No, you do the exact opposite. The data, the information, the statistics are good, but if you really want MK banned so badly, you're going to have to actually go out there in tournaments and implement the honor-less MK tactics that bend, stretch, and loophole the rules, and win. Oh, you don't wanna do that because it's not "fun" for you? Well then suck it up, step your game up, and defeat MetaKnight. The anti-ban side doesn't want to see stats, they want to see it with their own eyes, and that makes perfect sense to me now. It reminded me of when I took my first minor steps into competitive Melee and someone told me that Marth was better than Roy. Now in my scrubby eyes, that made no sense for a number of scrubby reasons: 1) you unlocked Marth before Roy, so Roy had to be better and 2) Roy had fire. I was presented stats (damage per move, combos, tourney wins), and I was still unconvinced... until I actually played Marth, started hitting people with tipper fairs, dairs, and fsmashes, and then I was convinced. (I'm not saying that anti-ban are a bunch of scrubs, I was just describing my player condition at the time; the comparison is more about stats vs. action.)

Basically, if you want MK banned, you're going to have to ACTUALLY prove that he's banworthy. The data indicates that MK might be banworthy, but the actions really do show otherwise. If you don't wanna play MK, then continue whoever you play with pride, nothing wrong with that. But seriously, banning MK without it being clear as a sunny day, or at least eliminating the fog, could cause huge problems. At that point, it won't even matter what characters are more viable with MK gone, because then competitive Brawl will be gone.

 

[Omni]

It reminded me of when I took my first minor steps into competitive Melee and someone told me that Marth was better than Roy. Now in my scrubby eyes, that made no sense for a number of scrubby reasons: 1) you unlocked Marth before Roy, so Roy had to be better and 2) Roy had fire.

Lmao.

These were my thoughts exactly.

 

[Dark.Pch]

i feel that there is a fairly large reason that people do not subscribe to this philosophy. To rightfully ban mk, you must prove that he is guilty of being broken or unfair. This proof should prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. It is common to take that one is innocent until proven guilty. This issue here lies in the fact that antiban sees your proof and says it may in the future prove to result in an unfair character but atm it moreso shows just a good character. Often people feel a character is broken if he makes a majority of the cast unplayable 70:30 on 19characters. perhaps if he had a majority of wins 51 percent. Neithers true

2 years and people can't prove why he should not go. yet I can see alot if info backing up why he needs to go. And people still don't know what to do. This topic is meaningless

 

[Omni]

If you have nothing to contribute then don't post in here, Dark Pch.

That simple.

 

[Sorto]

To ban any character is serious buisness and i feel that no proof given warrants without a reasonable doubt proof of a banworthy character. I would be pro-ban if mk fit into my concept of a broken character. Broken characters in my book often deal with majorities. 1. Majority of matchups against cast are unwinnable 70:30 on 19 characters. 2. Holds the majority of wins in comparison to the rest of the cast 51 percent. 3. Has no 55:45 or closer matchups with any cast member as those matchups may later evolve to be even or in the other characters favor... I will try to think up more.

 

[Dark.Pch]

If you have nothing to contribute then don't post in here, Dark Pch.

That simple.

Why, cause I am telling the truth? People seriously don't know what to do, and have people like M2K BS their ways to make meta legit. I am a person that does not think he needs to be banned, but dude, How much evidence do you need on the matter? Like come on man.

And BTW, say that to others that have not been doing that waaaaaaaaaay long before me, then maybe I'll think about it.

 

[Sorto]

2 years and people can't prove why he should not go. yet I can see alot if info backing up why he needs to go. And people still don't know what to do. This topic is meaningless

the issue you have is a simple one. Many people subscribe to innocent until proven guilty. The antibans proof of innocence isnt meaningless or even bad. Many good points are said as a few top players beat good mks and two playes consistently beat the best. Matchups in his favor arent completely overwhelming. Games with 1 best character exist and have similar turnouts. But the real issue is, many antiban feel that you evidence is not enough to warrant a ban as you have only proven that he may be guilty of being overpowered in the future, but he isnt right now.

 

[Eddie G]

If you have nothing to contribute then don't post in here, Dark Pch.

That simple.

On the contrary, pointing out the futility of the topic seems like a meaningful contribution to me. :D

 

[Punishment Divine]

Dsmash doesn't have power.
Almost every time you see Ally vs a mk, he always lives past 150%.

I'm aware that the move is easy to DI. What makes it so powerful is it's power : speed : versatility ratio.

Also @ Omni that's interesting. I never really thought about it that way. I remain in the middle about this lol

 

[DanGR]

Reasons I want him to go, as selfish as I am towards the current nature of this community and the bad direction I feel it is heading: (And for those of you that don't know what selfish means, here you go: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/selfish)

1. Meta Knight shatters the stage and character counterpick system of this party game we've turned into an option for competitive fighting game players. As more and more players switch over to Meta Knight, I think the unique counterpick system we have adopted will wither away to just a couple stages.

While the counterpick system we take for granted today is not necessary to have in order to sustain a competitive scene (as many other fighting game communities have and do without stage counterpicking and/or have very, very few viable tournament characters (lolmvc); I understand that. <.<), I think a lack thereof would very detrimentally affect the popularity of this game in particular, as opposed to others. And yes, I will argue day and night that game popularity is a very important aspect to consider.

I'm NOT saying that I think harboring players with a scrub mentality to increase popularity is a standard this community as a whole should adopt, though I do think if a portion of a game's players think the game should be played one way they certainly have the right to do so.

2. I agree with Overswarm's thread that "surgical" changes are 1. self-serving, 2. [arbitrarily] unfair to players of certain characters, 3. [very realistically potentially] lead to the domino effect, and so are naturally worse than "global" changes. As so, I am adamantly against banning any form of stalling with unclear, surgical rules, obviously, because they all fall into those 3 categories.

3. With the the above premise affecting my stance towards Meta Knight's stalling tactics, I am very inclined to believe, with both my testing against many players and talking to a lot of players (mind you), that Meta Knight hard counters a vast majority of the cast on Smashville, and possibly to a far less portion of the cast on Battlefield and Lylat. I think that is a big problem, very simply put.

As a potential TO in the future, I would not be willing to ban either those three starter stages (we don't have many good starters in the first place) OR arbitrarily nerf Meta Knight by limiting his camping game to keep this game alive. My preferred option is to ban Meta Knight.

(Side note: My opinion on #3 is very subject to change as I learn more about what other characters are capable of doing to stop him. In other words, this is what I think, NOW.)

That is all for now.

Edit: I think Omni's post below this one summed up this debate nicely.

 

[Omni]

@King Beef: *sigh* I concede. Touche on that point.

@Dark Pch: It's not that plain and simple. MK is on trial and pro-ban/prosecutors are putting up evidence for why he needs to be erased. However, the evidence conflicts with the ideology of how the game should be played, portrayed, shaped, etc. as long as results of MK being defeated continue to release At times, both sides contradict each other with their evidence and things do not become as simple as black and white.

It's going to be a judgment call. I think both sides have equally good reasons as to why they have chosen said side and it ties in with how they believe the metagame/Brawl should be played.

In the end, it will probably just come down to that. Unfortunately, it is extremely hard to change how a person perceives an issue which is why most of the debating and arguing does become a bit futile.

 

[Dark.Pch]

Innocent till proven guilty. Ok then.

- Metas tourny results since the day he has been taking over till now.
- How top ten has been stacked up with metas.
- How he leaves alot of characters unplayable.
- How only 2 people can beat M2K
- M2K does not know simple stuff and he still takes over with the best in the game. ( I dont even think he knows match ups in and out like that besides maybe Snake?)
- Its hard For ALOT of characters to abuse his flaws more than any character in this game.

As well as other stff people gone brought up 100 times showing how he is just taken over the game. There is plenty of evidence showing Why he should go. But as for reasons he does not need to be banned? Hardly any of it and w/e there is, it's weak.

Like how many dussicions there is gonna be on this. People will never know at all. Cause that the road this is going down too.

 

[LanceStern]

There shouldn't be much more discussions, it's the same thing everytime.

 

[Black Marf]

There shouldn't be much more discussions, it's the same thing everytime.

Incorrect. Pro-ban has slowly been gathering more and more evidence in their favor. It's been the same arguments every time, but the pro-ban's case has been getting stronger.

Oh, anti-ban has been back-pedaling too.

What the hell, this is so not the same argument as last year.

I was being serious.

Amazing Post

Nice.

I also remember maining Roy. Fire owns.

 

[RDK]

Reasons I want him to go, as selfish as I am towards the current nature of this community and the bad direction I feel it is heading: (And for those of you that don't know what selfish means, here you go: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/selfish)

1. Meta Knight shatters the stage and character counterpick system of this party game we've turned into an option for competitive fighting game players. As more and more players switch over to Meta Knight, I think the unique counterpick system we have adopted will wither away to just a couple stages.

While the counterpick system we take for granted today is not necessary to have in order to sustain a competitive scene (as many other fighting game communities have and do without stage counterpicking or have very, very few viable tournament characters (lolmvc); I understand that. <.<), I think a lack thereof would very detrimentally affect the popularity of this game in particular, as opposed to others. And yes, I will argue day and night that game popularity is a very important aspect to consider.

How many (and which) characters hard-countered the most-used top tier characters in Melee?

We've already established that counterpicking is negligible in high-end play.

2. I agree with Overswarm's thread that "surgical" changes are 1. self-serving, 2. [arbitrarily] unfair to players of certain characters, 3. [very realistically potentially] lead to the domino effect, and so are naturally better than "global" changes. As so, I am adamantly against banning any form of stalling with unclear rules. Rules against planking and circle camping fall into all 3 of those categories.

Right, surgical good, universal bad, we get it.

So I guess instead of banning the D3 and IC infinites we should bring it to its logical conclusion and just ban the characters? After all it would create diversity, fix matchups, and they're universal changes! Those are all good things, right?

3. With the the above premise affecting my stance towards Meta Knight's stalling tactics, I am very inclined to believe, with both my testing against many players and talking to a lot of players (mind you), that Meta Knight hard counters a vast majority of the cast on Smashville, and possibly to a far less number of the cast on Battlefield and Lylat. I think that is a big problem, very simply put.

As a potential TO in the future, I would not be willing to ban either those three starter stages (we don't have many good starters in the first place) OR arbitrarily nerf Meta Knight by limiting his camping game to keep this game alive.

Right. So we should just arbitrarily ban him instead.

Incorrect. Pro-ban has slowly been gathering more and more evidence in their favor. It's been the same arguments every time, but the pro-ban's case has been getting stronger.

Oh, anti-ban has been back-pedaling too.

What the hell, this is so not the same argument as last year.

Nice.

I also remember maining Roy. Fire owns.

I'm not sure how many more times I must say this.

The only evidence pro-ban has is that MK is dominating. That has nothing to do with whether he is ban-worthy.

For the sake of me staying sane, stop making this mistake.

 

[clowsui]

os said surgical is bad and universal is good lol, juuust saying i think dangr meant to put otherwise

 

[Omni]

Innocent till proven guilty. Ok then.

- Metas tourny results since the day he has been taking over till now.

Tournament results have shown a large multitude of players taking 1st in their region and on a national level.

- How top ten has been stacked up with metas.

Isn't evidence of why MK needs to be banned. Simply evidence that he is overused mainly because of him being the proclaimed best character in the game.

- How he leaves alot of characters unplayable.

Top tiers usually do that. Regardless, there are a good amount of characters that have even and/or close match-ups with MK making them good contenders. Think: Chaingrabbing D-throw Sheik in Melee.

- How only 2 people can beat M2K

Yet no one beats Mango's Jigglypuff in Melee at this point. Also take into consideration M2K was not only beat, but practically given a spanking by one of those players.

- M2K does not know simple stuff and he still takes over with the best in the game. ( I dont even think he knows match ups in and out like that besides maybe Snake?)

He knows more than he leads on. He simply processes his information different from us. M2K is a robot who plays off experience. He memorizes situations, circumstances, bad habits, and makes the most effective next best move. He may not know the simple stuff, but he knows the much more complex stuff moreso than most people.

- Its hard For ALOT of characters to abuse his flaws more than any character in this game.

You **** right!

As well as other stff people gone brought up 100 times showing how he is just taken over the game. There is plenty of evidence showing Why he should go. But as for reasons he does not need to be banned? Hardly any of it and w/e there is, it's weak.

"Weak" is your perception. Legit or realistic may be others. MK pro-ban are attempting to remove a character from the game thus it is their responsibility to prove to the majority that their reasoning is correct. If they cannot, then MK stays in the game.

You talk as if this should be a simple process, Dark Pch. There are too many minds with equally important, although different, ideas and thoughts contributing to the matter for a resolution to be seen without the process of debating.

 

[Black Marf]

I'm not sure how many more times I must say this.

The only evidence pro-ban has is that MK is dominating. That has nothing to do with whether he is ban-worthy.

For the sake of me staying sane, stop making this mistake.

He's also been placing better.

And domination can be used as a ban criteria.

I haven't been saying that the pro-ban's proven their case, I've been pointing out that the pro-ban's case has gotten stronger. They've been gathering information for their side, and they've been able to predict future trends to a certain degree. This year they have better information, and therefore stronger arguments for their side. This isn't conclusive, especially because many people don't agree with their ban criteria. But they're stronger than they were last year, and the anti-ban's side is slightly weaker.

 

[laki]

How many (and which) characters hard-countered the most-used top tier characters in Melee?

We've already established that counterpicking is negligible in high-end play.

Shiek beats marth. Jiggs beats falco. Fox has even matchups and loses to marth and I think falco on FD. Peach loses to marth. Just off the top of my head.

Right, surgical good, universal bad, we get it.

So I guess instead of banning the D3 and IC infinites we should bring it to its logical conclusion and just ban the characters? After all it would create diversity, fix matchups, and they're universal changes! Those are all good things, right?

Yes, it would be a better idea to ban D3 and ice climbers instead of banning the infinites but since neither of them are overcentralizing, we should just let them chaingrab away.


Right. So we should just arbitrarily ban him instead.

Yes.


I'm not sure how many more times I must say this.

The only evidence pro-ban has is that MK is dominating. That has nothing to do with whether he is ban-worthy.

For the sake of me staying sane, stop making this mistake.

Him overcentralizing contributes to him being baneworthy along with the fact that he's like a fricken melee character. Come to think of it, when m2k first picked meta up, I think he said he played him cause meta was a melee character. Someone should ask him and clarify.

 

[DanGR]

How many (and which) characters hard-countered the most-used top tier characters in Melee?

How is this relevant to the quoted section? I understand that there is a rough counterpick "star" of sorts in Melee.

We've already established that counterpicking is negligible in high-end play.

Where and when was that established as a fact? I happen to think it's very important.

So I guess instead of banning the D3 and IC infinites we should bring it to its logical conclusion and just ban the characters? After all it would create diversity, fix matchups, and they're universal changes! Those are all good things, right?

What does this have to do with the quoted section? I gave some of the reasons I don't want MK in this game, none of which apply to D3 or the ICs.

Right. So we should just arbitrarily ban him instead.

For the reasons I listed earlier, I'll support global changes before surgical ones. It's not arbitrary; I have reasons.

edit: Huge typo on my part:

"I agree with Overswarm's thread that "surgical" changes are 1. self-serving, 2. [arbitrarily] unfair to players of certain characters, 3. [very realistically potentially] lead to the domino effect, and so are naturally better than "global" changes."

NOT better, but worse.

 

[MKOwnage]

Tournament results have shown a large multitude of players taking 1st in their region and on a national level.



Isn't evidence of why MK needs to be banned. Simply evidence that he is overused mainly because of him being the proclaimed best character in the game.



Top tiers usually do that. Regardless, there are a good amount of characters that have even and/or close match-ups with MK making them good contenders. Think: Chaingrabbing D-throw Sheik in Melee.



Yet no one beats Mango's Jigglypuff in Melee at this point. Also take into consideration M2K was not only beat, but practically given a spanking by one of those players.



He knows more than he leads on. He simply processes his information different from us. M2K is a robot who plays off experience. He memorizes situations, circumstances, bad habits, and makes the most effective next best move. He may not know the simple stuff, but he knows the much more complex stuff moreso than most people.



You **** right!



"Weak" is your perception. Legit or realistic may be others. MK pro-ban are attempting to remove a character from the game thus it is their responsibility to prove to the majority that their reasoning is correct. If they cannot, then MK stays in the game.

You talk as if this should be a simple process, Dark Pch. There are too many minds with equally important, although different, ideas and thoughts contributing to the matter for a resolution to be seen without the process of debating.

It seems every time someone argues against you, you **** their argument inside and out. Good post I completely agree with you.

 

[Omni]

Yo, pro-banners!

 

[Palpi]

Seriously. What the **** constitutes for a ban. All I hear is "yeah but that isn't ban worthy!"

If you disregard the comparisons to other games then you have nothing to compare it to and your choice of whether mk is banworthy or not is only reinforced by your own ignorance.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

It seems every time someone argues against you, you **** their argument inside and out. Good post I completely agree with you.

every time or just now when it was dark pch? why don't you look at how things went with the discussion starting on page 89.

 

[swordgard]

every time or just now when it was dark pch? why don't you look at how things went with the discussion starting on page 89.

40 posts/page: The only way to read through smashboards.

MK voice: Come back when you learn how to browse SWF!

 

[Nanaki]

Seriously. What the **** constitutes for a ban. All I hear is "yeah but that isn't ban worthy!"

If you disregard the comparisons to other games then you have nothing to compare it to and your choice of whether mk is banworthy or not is only reinforced by your own ignorance.

^^

Bottom line is, you can't make a criteria up to ban something post-operatively. That's why you always hear "That isn't ban-worthy!". Nothing is, unless you're following some ridiculous Sirlin line of logic that has applied to very few other parts of Brawl's ruleset.

What I've seen so far in this thread (in basic programming lingo!):

For pagenumber = 1 to infinity

Pro-Ban (OS mostly): Evidence of MK results constantly improving, evidence of those beating MK at the highest levels being outliers rather than the norm.

Anti-Ban (RDK mostly): Doesn't fit ban criteria, can't ban.

Pro-Ban: He fits my criteria (or we should ban him, and criteria to justify it for later use).

Anti-Ban: Nah.

Next pagenumber

Edit: Agree with swordgard about 40 posts/page being win. We're on page 51 now.

 

[MKOwnage]

every time or just now when it was dark pch? why don't you look at how things went with the discussion starting on page 89.

1. Page 89? you've been here longer than me there for you should already know how the threads work on this forum.
2. Omni has provided a good argument just because he isn't getting his collective panties in a bunch and posting colorful graphs doesn't mean he hasn't made a good argument.

 

[WindMajor]

I'm sure this has probably mentioned a thousand times, but I've been living under a rock for the past few days.

What do people from both sides think of a temp-ban? Like a 3-6 month MK ban?