Official Metaknight Discussion

[Damage Points]

@RedHal

you use Snake now?

 

[OverLade]

Do you think that's probable?

The game is slowly dying. That was a dramatization, but people are just getting fed up gradually.

I still don't understand...
What top Olimars are beating these top Snakes?

Given that there aren't even many top snakes and even fewer top Olimars, you don't see it happening very often. And saying Olimar has an advantage in the matchup isn't the same as saying Olimar wins. I'd personally put the matchup at 50-50.

Most Olimar's that I saw post in the discussion topic had it as even. The snake's had it as 55-45 or 50-50.
The MU is nowhere near counter material.

There's no reason to talk about Snake like he even needs a counter. He has plenty of 55:45s and 50:50s. The metagame is very open even if he's the best character. The learning curve on him is huge and it doesn't guarantee success just because you know every matchup. It's not like MK where you get free wins in certain matchups because of your character. Skill is still important.

 

[Tien2500]

There's no reason to talk about Snake like he even needs a counter. He has plenty of 55:45s and 50:50s. The metagame is very open even if he's the best character. The learning curve on him is huge and it doesn't guarantee success just because you know every matchup. It's not like MK where you get free wins in certain matchups because of your character. Skill is still important.

Not to mention that you can stage CP Snake.

 

[Kewkky]

No kewky i think the reason MK wasn't banned immediately after discovering how good he was was because of the type of crowd the smash community is. The smash community is much more about fun and being able to pick ur favorite character than actually being competative. Because all of the characters in smash are from different games people naturally have more loyalties to certain characters. Ironically enough this is the very issue. Anti-ban asks why character diversity is so important when in reality thats one of the reasons why i think MK wasn't banned at the beginning because those die hard kirby fans who wanted to play MK in every kirby game ever wont get their chance with him banned. However because of MK in a competative scene there is becoming less and less character diversity.

No, MK didn't get banned outright because he wasn't seen as such a huge problem as he's become by now. Back then, planking and scrooging weren't even dreamed of, it was just MK vs the cast in an all-out aggression. MKs rushed onward and M2K was one of the most aggressive MKs, and everyone was all up in his meat, wondering how he could play so aggressively and get away with it. Not until other MKs started to plank and aircamp, did M2K find out that there was a safer way to play MK, and win. And not until he wanted to get even safer, did he think about scrooging his helpless victims... And all of this right after the "Ban MK" polls happened, when anti-ban was pointing out how "it won't get worse, we'll eventually find some anti-MK strategy, then MK will go down, you'll all see! So stop whining and learn the MU"... Looks like we got some anti-MK strategies all right: choose MK and do to him what he did to you, but worse.

It being a competitive scene, we never catered to the people who asked for MK to stay "because they loved him in Kirby Super Star" or such things. In a competitive scene, things are done for competitiveness' sake, and not for the sake of what the non-masses want. I can assure you that less than half of the current MK mainers main him because he's their favorite Kirby character, rather than because he's the best character and proven so.


My point in the previous posts wasn't to say "don't ban MK", but to speak about how MK isn't dominating with such a strong hand as other single-tier'd characters have been doing in other games in the past. MK is in his own tier in the tourney results thread because of the gap between him and the 2nd highest character, which has been the way Ankoku separates the characters in his groups, by separating the two characters who have the largest gaps between them into the butts of their respective, newly-created groups.... In the tier list thread, I don't know why MK would HAVE to be separated from the other characters, given the fact that his domination in tourney does not go hand-in-hand with his domination in theory. Unbeatable planking pretty much gives him AT LEAST 70:30s across the board in a game where almost all matchups are seen by the community boards as 60:40s (so you can understand what it means, just view them as difficulty levels instead of every other interpretation... 60:40 could be "hard", and 70:30 could be "very hard". The higher, the more savage the name! 90:10 would be the "Dante Must Die" equivalent or something)... But in-tourney this is not so.

Kinda reminds me of the "perfect control" videos Melee had... Where it said "sometimes on-paper doesn't meet in-practice"... And also reminds me of Pit, where people keep saying all these wonderful things about him on-paper but refuse to present them on practice... I know MK is a problem and have been saying for forever now that I want him "taken care of", whatever that may be (but if they can aim their answer to his pseudo-stalling techniques, I would be most pleased), but once again I felt the need to jump into the middle of the discussion and point out that the circles people are doing, are just gonna start going in circles again...




... and that they need to know what to look for in a temp ban's research results before they decide on implementing a temp ban or else they'll skew the results in their favor, like they did with Crow!'s post.

Edit: Oh, and here's my old Tekken4 topic, which I made when I got back from Pound4, if anyone wants to eye it. Maybe some people will relate to their competitive scene now that we're 4 more months into the metagame since I created that topic (which got overshadowed by Overswarm's many MK-specific threads back then)

 

[Kaffei]

The game is slowly dying. That was a dramatization, but people are just getting fed up gradually.

 

[OverLade]

Yeah it sucks but imo tourney attendance would've fallen a lot slower if MK hadn't been in the game. Anyway at this point it doesn't matter. MLG will keep brawl a float, but the reality is this is a game of choice.

People will play Ike because they love fire emblem games, and people will use Lucario because of that dumb mystery mew movie. People use Zero suit samus because they played through Metroid Prime/Fusion/Zero mission and loved it. Many other people play their character because they enjoy their playstyle as well. But if people can't play the character they want to play, they'll just quit.

When the prize money for winning a tourney isn't worth attending the tourney because the turnout is low, that's when the game dies. And the reality is MK is the only reason a ton of really good players can't place.

I doubt MK will get banned I just think the game will eventually die but by that point nobody will care.

 

[demonictoonlink]

Wwwwaaaaaaiiiiiiiitttttttttt........

Did someone just say Snake has a huge learning curve? I mean, maybe more than like MK, GaW, or Marth, but really?

Nade camp, space first hit of Ftilt, Utilt to kill, bair when falling.

You're now decent with Snake.

 

[Kaffei]

Yeah it sucks but imo tourney attendance would've fallen a lot slower if MK hadn't been in the game. Anyway at this point it doesn't matter. MLG will keep brawl a float, but the reality is this is a game of choice.

People will play Ike because they love fire emblem games, and people will use Lucario because of that dumb mystery mew movie. People use Zero suit samus because they played through Metroid Prime/Fusion/Zero mission and loved it. Many other people play their character because they enjoy their playstyle as well. But if people can't play the character they want to play, they'll just quit.

When the prize money for winning a tourney isn't worth attending the tourney because the turnout is low, that's when the game dies. And the reality is MK is the only reason a ton of really good players can't place.

I doubt MK will get banned I just think the game will eventually die but by that point nobody will care.

But how come some people are just really dedicated to their characters (Jash, Boss) even though MK is there? Is it just because they're intrinsically motivated to just play their chars without caring that MK beats them?

 

[Raziek]

But how come some people are just really dedicated to their characters (Jash, Boss) even though MK is there? Is it just because they're intrinsically motivated to just play their chars without caring that MK beats them?

There's this, and in other cases (like mine), MK just doesn't mesh with my style enough to be worth it. If I was any good at him, I'd probably main him.

 

[SFA Smiley]

I'm neutral personally but i'm pretty curious to see how things unravel with a tempbanned MK. We'd probably have some impressive character variety.

 

[OverLade]

But how come some people are just really dedicated to their characters (Jash, Boss) even though MK is there? Is it just because they're intrinsically motivated to just play their chars without caring that MK beats them?

Yeah some people are just dedicated and love their character.

Otherwise everyone would use MK/Snake/Falco/Diddy

Did someone just say Snake has a huge learning curve? I mean, maybe more than like MK, GaW, or Marth, but really?

Nade camp, space first hit of Ftilt, Utilt to kill, bair when falling.

You're now decent with Snake.

At a compeititve level, winning with snake agaisnt someone who knows how to fight against snake is extremely difficult no matter how much stuff you know. The character isn't like MK where you win just by knowing how to do stuff. You win by reading your opponent and reacting etc.

Being decent isnt' anywhere near good enough, which is why only a handful of snakes are household names.

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

Yeah it sucks but imo tourney attendance would've fallen a lot slower if MK hadn't been in the game. Anyway at this point it doesn't matter. MLG will keep brawl a float, but the reality is this is a game of choice.

People will play Ike because they love fire emblem games, and people will use Lucario because of that dumb mystery mew movie. People use Zero suit samus because they played through Metroid Prime/Fusion/Zero mission and loved it. Many other people play their character because they enjoy their playstyle as well. But if people can't play the character they want to play, they'll just quit.

When the prize money for winning a tourney isn't worth attending the tourney because the turnout is low, that's when the game dies. And the reality is MK is the only reason a ton of really good players can't place.

I doubt MK will get banned I just think the game will eventually die but by that point nobody will care.

And at that point, I can already see uninformed people b!tching that if items were on, we wouldn't have to ban MK.
>_<

Back on topic, maybe Pit would have more relevance in the temp ban Metagame.

 

[theunabletable]

I'm neutral personally but i'm pretty curious to see how things unravel with a tempbanned MK. We'd probably have some impressive character variety.

Me too.

I'm neutral, somewhat leaning towards anti-ban. But I'd love to see what the metagame would be like with 6 months of no MK in tourney play. Even though I main MK, I think I'd enjoy seeing what it'd be like without MK. And I'd get a good chance to practice my Lucario more (and my Snake/Wario/ICs).

 

[Judo777]

But how come some people are just really dedicated to their characters (Jash, Boss) even though MK is there? Is it just because they're intrinsically motivated to just play their chars without caring that MK beats them?

some people are very dedicated to their characters. But after a while it becomes unfun to constantly lose to players that arent as good as u simply because their character is carrying them.

 

[Kaffei]

some people are very dedicated to their characters. But after a while it becomes unfun to constantly lose to players that arent as good as u simply because their character is carrying them.

Stupid ****ing sakurai what the ****

 

[Deleted member]

Yeah some people are just dedicated and love their character.

Yep! Gotta have my Wolf!

 

[dj asakura]

Sakurai may have created the game and the character, but in the end, we let this get out of control and let the issue elevate to wear it is now.

I feel like the whole deal is beyond dealing with now though. As much as I would like to see a temp-ban happen to see what the metagame becomes, I have a great feeling it won't happen. And within a year or two this game will be much less than it is now.

 

[etecoon]

Wwwwaaaaaaiiiiiiiitttttttttt........

Did someone just say Snake has a huge learning curve? I mean, maybe more than like MK, GaW, or Marth, but really?

Nade camp, space first hit of Ftilt, Utilt to kill, bair when falling.

You're now decent with Snake.

this snake would be pretty horrible and you should feel bad about yourself if you lose to them

 

[Damage Points]

Redhalberd when did you start using snake?

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Or the other way around. You can't just assume anti-ban has all the stupid people and proban has none. I can't name anyone(unless you go on skype XD), but proban too has stupid people.

OOH! OOH! PICK ME! PICK ME!

So can idiots on the proban side. They can actually try to change things too. There were idiots on proban in the BBR, just like antiban.

You are seeing this as black-white too much imo.

Pro-ban can't do anything though. That's the problem. If we hold MK-banned tournaments, what happens? Well, they don't get as much attendance as MK-allowed tournaments because the MK mains do not show up and instead go to the parallel tournament. Then the pot is smaller, and the competitive players decide to try their luck where MK is allowed. TOs lose money unless it's global.

Jack can you link me to Crow's post? I can't find it.

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=9870164&postcount=9756

That is not at all how some of it happened >.>

OH, and @San: Chun-li is as dominant in 3rd strike as MK is here last I checked. Daigo is one of the few who doesn't use her iirc.

Not that 3S is on the circuit anymore, but I remember like all of top 8 minus 1 or 2 people being Thunder Thighs.

ALSO LOL AT PEOPLE CITING MATCHUPS LIKE THEY ARE RELIABLE

3S has terrible balance and should feel bad. Plus, 3rd strike could just wait for something like SSF3S or SF4; we won't get SSB4 until the next console generation, probably.

Wwwwaaaaaaiiiiiiiitttttttttt........

Did someone just say Snake has a huge learning curve? I mean, maybe more than like MK, GaW, or Marth, but really?

Nade camp, space first hit of Ftilt, Utilt to kill, bair when falling.

You're now decent with Snake.

Decent. As in, able to beat terrible scrubs? I play like that! It's not quite as easy as you claim.

There's this, and in other cases (like mine), MK just doesn't mesh with my style enough to be worth it. If I was any good at him, I'd probably main him.

...are you kidding me? You main MARTH. MK is virtually marth v2.0!

Yeah some people are just dedicated and love their character.

Otherwise everyone would use MK

Fix'd.

Also, about the whole "MK mains won't have time in 6 months to pick up new mains" issue... it's not just the 6 months of temp ban. It's at least 6 months to a year before this temp ban goes in to action (if at all), so they should take a hint and start learning another character.

 

[Raziek]

...are you kidding me? You main MARTH. MK is virtually marth v2.0!

The problem for me is that Mk's air speed sucks balls. He doesn't move fluidly enough to mesh with my style. I mean, I probably COULD learn him if I really tried, but I don't find him fun at all, and I value comfort more than the easy win.

 

[Kaffei]

The problem for me is that Mk's air speed sucks balls. He doesn't move fluidly enough to mesh with my style. I mean, I probably COULD learn him if I really tried, but I don't find him fun at all, and I value comfort more than the easy win.

Not to mention, it's pretty clear that you're a fan of FE, haha.

 

[Turbo Ether]

Suggestion to everyone: Play a better game. Couldn't hurt.

 

[Raziek]

Not to mention, it's pretty clear that you're a fan of FE, haha.

Yeah, there's that too. I've played 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, SD, a translated 6 rom, and 5.

Not to mention I do sprite splices. (I did the re-color of Josh in my avi, and the sprites in my sig. xD

 

[Kaffei]

Yeah, there's that too. I've played 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, SD, a translated 6 rom, and 5.

Not to mention I do sprite splices. (I did the re-color of Josh in my avi, and the sprites in my sig. xD

Joshua is probably my 2nd best char. Him + Gerik = 8x% crit = ****

Suggestion to everyone: Play a better game. Couldn't hurt.

Nah I like brawl

 

[Raziek]

Joshua is probably my 2nd best char. Him + Gerik = 8x% crit = ****

Josh is a **** train. I'm a big fan of doing a support triangle with him, Marisa and Gerik (Gerik has 2 B's), and have them solo entire maps.

On topic: Meta-Knight makes me a sad panda.

 

[M@v]

Redhalberd when did you start using snake?

Hes been using snake for a long time now, lol.
At MLG he used both snake and mk a lot.

 

[Kaffei]

Josh is a **** train. I'm a big fan of doing a support triangle with him, Marisa and Gerik (Gerik has 2 B's), and have them solo entire maps.

On topic: Meta-Knight makes me a sad panda.

lol that's kinda why i like joshua and MK because they attack really fast and can just go in and ****.

Except one time I was trying to solo this gordon place (really easy not even worth mentioning lol) but I couldn't kill the last one cus I forgot to give him a runesword and he couldn't reach

 

[etecoon]

The problem for me is that Mk's air speed sucks balls. He doesn't move fluidly enough to mesh with my style. I mean, I probably COULD learn him if I really tried, but I don't find him fun at all, and I value comfort more than the easy win.

this, I'm kind of the same. I think marth is more my style but I use MK because he's...well he's MK. so even though I main MK I'd be just as happy if he were banned lol

 

[Mota]

If there is a temp-ban, people need to come up with a criteria list now, that will decide whether or not MK will need to be banned after the temp.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

The problem for me is that Mk's air speed sucks balls. He doesn't move fluidly enough to mesh with my style. I mean, I probably COULD learn him if I really tried, but I don't find him fun at all, and I value comfort more than the easy win.

I was just trolling, but 'k.

If there is a temp-ban, people need to come up with a criteria list now, that will decide whether or not MK will need to be banned after the temp.

This. I'd have to review the thread and check out what I have...

 

[etecoon]

I was just trolling, but 'k.

yesss starting to understand what this thread is here for : )

 

[OverLade]

Redhalberd when did you start using snake?

Yesterday night at 9pm.

 

[DMG]

That's not Snake that's Anaconda

 

[demonictoonlink]

The problem for me is that Mk's air speed sucks balls. He doesn't move fluidly enough to mesh with my style. I mean, I probably COULD learn him if I really tried, but I don't find him fun at all, and I value comfort more than the easy win.

Glide everywhere.

 

[Raziek]

Glide everywhere.

But Glide attack doesn't have omgwtfpriority and it's telegraphed as balls.

I counter that **** all the time. >_>

 

[cutter]

As I make the 12,000th post in this thread, I can only wonder about what the future holds for this game, and possibly the future of these boards as well.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

the only reason why I could see someone not wanting MK banned is because people don't know about or see a FULL exploit of MK's strengths to their maximum, which isn't difficult.

no MK has gotten a lead at the very beginning of a game and then planked the rest of the game. they continue to be aggressive (by that I mean they actually stay on the stage and do anything) . this doesn't demonstrate how MK should be played. people playing MK incorrectly give people the illusion that he isn't broken.

Sometimes you need to point it out to people who don't see it,

Yeah it sucks but imo tourney attendance would've fallen a lot slower if MK hadn't been in the game. Anyway at this point it doesn't matter. MLG will keep brawl a float, but the reality is this is a game of choice.

People will play Ike because they love fire emblem games, and people will use Lucario because of that dumb mystery mew movie. People use Zero suit samus because they played through Metroid Prime/Fusion/Zero mission and loved it. Many other people play their character because they enjoy their playstyle as well. But if people can't play the character they want to play, they'll just quit.

When the prize money for winning a tourney isn't worth attending the tourney because the turnout is low, that's when the game dies. And the reality is MK is the only reason a ton of really good players can't place.

I doubt MK will get banned I just think the game will eventually die but by that point nobody will care.

A lot of games go down this route. People lose interest and move onto other games.

Smash won't die out because there is a huge following for the series, N64 despite being the least popular of the three is still played, mostly online. Melee keeps trucking and has a very loyal fan-base, if people drop out and quit, well that's their choice. The simple fact this series is connected to Nintendo pretty much guarantee's there is going to be a following for Brawl in some shape or form.

Funny thing is, the Lucario and the Mystery of Mew is probably the best movie that franchise has turned out.

 

[Ripple]

I picture of ornithopter would have been funnier

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I picture of ornithopter would have been funnier

Or Chimney Pimp.