Official Metaknight Discussion

[OverLade]

DK wins 6/4. All he has to do is hit him with a ground UpB and land a 9-punch. Also, DK lives forever and can spike MK for early kills!

And cargo spike is broken. Ban DK.

 

[AllyKnight]

Falcon rapeeeeeeesssssss MK, M2K just basing off a friendly LOL. Of course if we base on friendlies, I did beat M2K MK in MK dittos, dang he sux at that MU LOL

 

[rPSIvysaur]

ITT: Ban DK

 

[etecoon]

ban falcon too

 

[DMG]

Ban the ability to jump. Ever.

 

[OverLade]

Ban falcon kick out of shield. Too ****ing broken.

 

[Kaffei]

ITT: Ban DK

 

[Kole]

that picture is too good

 

[WindMajor]

Kaffei wins the thread.

 

[DMG]

Feel the wrath of Meta Kong. He's all in your Metagame bro.

 

[Mew2King]

ally i just can't think the matchup is 50:50 cuz if it was you would have used him vs me in tourney at some point ever. I'll agree to all FD or whatever stage you want I just don't think Falcon can beat MK unless there's some stuff about the matchup that I don't know that you're hiding or something. I'm willing to change my opinion if you can convince me.

 

[DMG]

Falcon beats MK because he's a lower tiered character. And we all know that Low Tier mains have the HEART OF THE CARDS!

 

[HotWings]

I know that falcon is pretty strong but i believe that if both players are evenly skilled then the MK will win hands down... ally if you think you can honestly beat M2K with your falcon then i would love to see that actually happen.

I would love to see you use falcon in columbus.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

2 tournies this weekend were full with mks. Phase 8 with 6 mks in the top 8 and asylum with like 9-10 mks in the top 12. BAN MK!

Refer to Kewkky's post. The one I'm quoting.

he doesn't. Vast majority of those MKs are bad. The competition at those tourneys were not very good outside of a small group of people. EXTREMELY biased examples. At the last 100+ man Melee tourney, almost everyone in the top 8 was Fox except for like Darkrain and hochimintrail's ICs.

So they suck... and they're still winning? Is this... this because of the stage list? Whose side are you on?

I find it ironic you should criticize this so heavily (Infested is a charged word, so I'm assuming you dislike MK-based metagames) when many 2d fighters eventually have pretty stacked results in favor of one character.

Wasn't the last major SF3 tourney like, all top4 Chun-li?

1. How often do we get a new SSB release? How often do we get an SF release?
2. Do the creators of SSB openly care about balance?
3. Why should we care if their community accepts standard X of brokenness? I would support the ban for a character like Chun Li who has nothing but 60-40s and 70-30s too.

why do we cite other video games like SF when the dominate character is usually nerfed in the next released? people have a problem with 1 dominate character and thats why the game creators fix that in the next version. if not, akuma from SF2 ?(I'm no expert at when he was broken) would be the same as when he was broken.

we do not have the luxury of waiting a couple months for the next issue. we have to wait years. we can't wait for the next version. we (the community) must do something when there is a single dominate character

This, pretty much.

You know, instead of concentrating on those two results, why dontcha take a peek at the other results happening around?

This + orlando is why we shouldn't cherry pick results guys.

He's saying that mk does better against diddy than pit does therefore mk's ratio should be better than pits. What you said doesn't parallel what he said so it shows no logical flaw.

O.o DK doesn't suck... where have you been?

DK is bottom tier (almost ganon bad) without a secondary.

 

[Mew2King]

@ above poster - no, but most of the placers around like 5th and so more or less are not on near the calibur of many of the other top players in that region who did not show. Example NinjaLink and Malcom from NY would easily do better than most of those MKs and the gap between Dojo and Dphat or Dphat and the others was pretty large at that Phase tourney.

 

[Kole]

DK is bottom tier (almost ganon bad) without a secondary.

WAT.

10chars

 

[Ussi]

a few tournies without many notable names with a bunch of MKs in top 8 really isn't.... a big deal

 

[Raziek]

WAT.

10chars

Read: Without a secondary. You know, the whole 90:10 lolinfinite against Dedede.

 

[AllyKnight]

I'll try, it's REALLY hard for Falcon he has to time **** so hard and move like a ****** in order to not get gimp.

 

[Kaffei]

I'll try, it's REALLY hard for Falcon he has to time **** so hard and move like a ****** in order to not get gimp.

What was going on in your head when you beat silverdoc

 

[DMG]

"This guy is a scrub"

 

[Kaffei]

"This guy is a scrub"

I want Ally to do that to me

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

WAT.

10chars

Read: Without a secondary. You know, the whole 90:10 lolinfinite against Dedede.

This.

I'm still campaigning for DK to be bottom tier. Someone with about 5 minutes of pre-match DDD practice and any competence whatsoever could beat the very best DK in the world without any trouble if the infinite is on. Without learning the character. This is why DK is terrible.

 

[demonictoonlink]

If DDD/Tornado spam was banned, DK would be too good

Also I love where this thread is going right now. Everyone is lulzy.

Also sigging Kaffei cuz that sounds provocative.

 

[DMG]

>.>
I didn't say main, I just said pick up. If you want to be optimal in the realistic smash scene (which isn't just a bunch of mks) then you would pick up other characters for counterpicking or in the first round when you know who they'll pick. It's that simple. If you really want to maximize your chances of winning playing DDD, falco, ICs, and Snake would be the best choice. Just not as easy.

Ok discussion moved to here.

First round, you would be foolish to assume that any one character OVERALL is better than MK. Blind pick ruins any "Ok he picked Falco, I'm going IC's" stuff. If you use someone other than MK, you are playing Rock Paper Scissors with them. You are putting your matchup ratio to chance. Now let's assume you don't Blind Pick. He is gonna pick Dedede. You pick Falco. So he switches to IC's, obviously to counter you. You go to Diddy to counter him. He then goes to Peach. You then Pick Marth. He then picks Dedede. You then Pick Olimar. He then picks Luigi. Etc. This can go on for days. Now you are playing SPIN THE WHEEL OF FORTUNE LA LA LA DE DA DA DE DA LA LA!

Ok now for your CP. Let's say that, because of your method of throwing complete caution to the wind, that you end up losing the first match because you though he was gonna pick Diddy so you went Peach and WHAM he ended up going Marth. So you pick a CP stage. He picks Donkey Kong. MARVELOUS! You get to use Dedede for a free win instead of MK.

Now it's his CP. He picks Smashville. If you stay as Dedede, he picks IC's, Falco, Diddy, etc you lose. If you pick someone, he just picks your counter. Snake? Dedede. Falco? IC's. IC's? Diddy/Snake. You now have to hope he doesn't know how to play as your character's counter.

So, because you were adamant about not using MK, you not only jeopardize the fate of the first game, but subsequent games after that where on the opponent's CP you pray to god that the other guy doesn't know how to play the counter character/s. Sure, you could have had a safe bet with MK, but nope. You aren't that guy. You like taking chances, rolling the dice, having your fate decided through lesser decisions. Sure, you might get away with some extremely strong CP's, but you also have a lot more risk against you when aiming for those CP's. You could have hedged your Portfolio with MK, but you decided to invest in speculative bonds that go up or down significantly based on the actions of other people. You are the broker that over leveraged, the Mutual Fund Manager who had 1 too many drinks, the Boss who couldn't say enough is enough. You played the system assuming that nothing bad could go wrong, that everything would always work out, that you always have to live on the edge.


You
are
wrong

 

[Raziek]

DMG's Post

I agree completely. One of the big reasons MK depresses me is because he takes all the strategy out of counter-picking.

 

[demonictoonlink]

What if you know the person can only play Falco?

 

[DMG]

That person is the Wrestling Manager who wanted to work with an Amateur instead of Stone Cold Steve Austin.

 

[rathy Aro]

DK is bottom tier (almost ganon bad) without a secondary.

Firstly, no. Secondly, we have always put DDD high on the tier list for his ability as a second. Solo DDD would never get the tier placements he has gotten and has.

Ok discussion moved to here.

First round, you would be foolish to assume that any one character OVERALL is better than MK. Blind pick ruins any "Ok he picked Falco, I'm going IC's" stuff. If you use someone other than MK, you are playing Rock Paper Scissors with them. You are putting your matchup ratio to chance. Now let's assume you don't Blind Pick. He is gonna pick Dedede. You pick Falco. So he switches to IC's, obviously to counter you. You go to Diddy to counter him. He then goes to Peach. You then Pick Marth. He then picks Dedede. You then Pick Olimar. He then picks Luigi. Etc. This can go on for days. Now you are playing SPIN THE WHEEL OF FORTUNE LA LA LA DE DA DA DE DA LA LA!

Ok now for your CP. Let's say that, because of your method of throwing complete caution to the wind, that you end up losing the first match because you though he was gonna pick Diddy so you went Peach and WHAM he ended up going Marth. So you pick a CP stage. He picks Donkey Kong. MARVELOUS! You get to use Dedede for a free win instead of MK.

Now it's his CP. He picks Smashville. If you stay as Dedede, he picks IC's, Falco, Diddy, etc you lose. If you pick someone, he just picks your counter. Snake? Dedede. Falco? IC's. IC's? Diddy/Snake. You now have to hope he doesn't know how to play as your character's counter.

So, because you were adamant about not using MK, you not only jeopardize the fate of the first game, but subsequent games after that where on the opponent's CP you pray to god that the other guy doesn't know how to play the counter character/s. Sure, you could have had a safe bet with MK, but nope. You aren't that guy. You like taking chances, rolling the dice, having your fate decided through lesser decisions. Sure, you might get away with some extremely strong CP's, but you also have a lot more risk against you when aiming for those CP's. You could have hedged your Portfolio with MK, but you decided to invest in speculative bonds that go up or down significantly based on the actions of other people. You are the broker that over leveraged, the Mutual Fund Manager who had 1 too many drinks, the Boss who couldn't say enough is enough. You played the system assuming that nothing bad could go wrong, that everything would always work out, that you always have to live on the edge.


You
are
wrong

My stance is that there are situations where MK is not optimal. Giving one situation where MK would be optimal does not defeat my point whereas if I gave even one situation where MK was not optimal I would be right. I think its pretty clear that there are such cases without me having to point them out.

edit: I'm not going to bother further arguing this. It a very simple subject and there isn't any new info to bring to the table so its not like further arguing is going to convince either of us to change our minds.

 

[AvaricePanda]

a post

MK trumps the character CP system, yes. But it doesn't worry me nearly as much for a few things:

1) It's assuming the character CP system is used often in the first place. A large majority of players use one character at a high level, some with a secondary for really bad match-ups. Only a few people (Atomsk, NL, etc) actually use like 4+ characters well. From what we've seen, most players aren't able to learn all of A-tier at a high level and place well because most players don't have the time or skill. MK breaks optimal match-up CPing, but realistically that's not going to ever happen because, like in your example, you'd have to learn Diddy/Falco/D3/Oli/Peach/ICs/Marth/Snake/whoever at a high level.

2) Kind of relates to 1: people know their regions, the players in their regions, and the characters they use. Even if you don't know an upcoming bracket match you can just watch them beforehand to see. In general though, because most people stick with one character, you should already know who you'll counterpick beforehand. You'd also want to take into account how well the player knows X match-up. For example, there's a Diddy main (Count) in my region who, like most, doesn't use any other characters at the level he uses Diddy. I'm trash at the Diddy ditto, and I know he's good against MKs and pretty good against Falco. My potential CPs would be like Snake, Falco, and Peach, but I'm only decent with Falco and Peach, and only know the match-up for Falco, so I'm going to use him. He's confident enough in the match-up that he won't switch, probably not even if he had a secondary at the level of his Diddy.

3) Honestly, 40-60 match-ups aren't that bad. People deal with them all the time and still win, lol. This kinda relates to the others in that it's one of the reasons why people don't learn 4-5 potential characters. I'd much rather fight a Wario as Diddy, who I'm comfortable with and know the Wario match-up with, rather than try to learn Marth (who's lacking the months of experience my Diddy has) for the match-up to get a slight advantage.

Again, the knowledge of MK doing this to the character CP system is nothing new. It's just not as startling for those reasons for me, and I can't see the character CP system being used often in an MK-less metagame because of the rock-paper-scissors guessing game one pulls with it anyway, as you said.

 

[DMG]

Ok think about the first part. If people overall stick with 1 character, or find it in their best interests to stick with a single character and not try to pick up 5+ characters, who is the best overall choice? Metaknight. (Aimed at Aro. If it's viable to use multiple characters, then you are playing a long guessing game. If it's viable to use just 1 or two, then your best bet is obviously to pick the better characters anyways.)


The system is there for people to use. If they don't use it to the fullest, that is their fault and reflects on them, not the characters. If you don't think it's a problem, that's fine. Honestly, I agree with you in that it's clear people do not exploit the system to the fullest extent possible regarding both characters and stages. Our community is "Not that gay" compared to other communities when it comes to this. However, it doesn't go away simple because people forgo the option. The speed limit is still 70 MPH even if you choose to go 50 MPH.

 

[Turbo Ether]

4:6 is that bad.

There's a big difference between playing through a tournament, 6:4 and playing through a tournament, 4:6.

 

[Kole]

This.

I'm still campaigning for DK to be bottom tier. Someone with about 5 minutes of pre-match DDD practice and any competence whatsoever could beat the very best DK in the world without any trouble if the infinite is on. Without learning the character. This is why DK is terrible.

One "unwinnable" matchup does not make a character bottom tier.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Firstly, no. Secondly, we have always put DDD high on the tier list for his ability as a second. Solo DDD would never get the tier placements he has gotten and has.

One "unwinnable" matchup does not make a character bottom tier.

Go all DK in a tournament. The moment your opponents catch on to the fact that you're going just DK, you will lose the next 2 matches almost instantly. You do NOT have to be good with DDD. You just have to shieldgrab anything the DK throws at you and you win. There's a difference between an "unwinnable if the opponent is good with said character" (ICs vs. Ganon, ZSS vs. ROB are examples) and "Unwinnable if the opponent has a clue how to play smash" (just DK vs. DDD, maaaybe Sheik vs. Ganon).

 

[Col. Stauffenberg]

If we're measuring the tier list by something like "character's viability to win a tournament set against a competent opponent playing to win" then yeah, DK is bottom tier.

 

[Kole]

Exactly why no DKs place at all.

EDIT: I would argue about how a character shouldn't drop about 12 places because of one bad matchup, but this is the Official Metaknight Discussion.

 

[Judo777]

Ok i think the gist of what DMG said is this and hes right if it is. MK is the optimal choice for game 1. Since game 1 is the most important game because you should ALWAYS win on ur cp supposedly game 1 is what matters so MK is the optimal choice. The converse of this statement is u should always win ur CP unless u are a character that is not in the top like 5 and then if the oppoent picks MK u wont always necessarily win on ur cp.

Either way this clearly demonstrates that MK is always the optimal choice over all because if u win game 1 and ur MK u should win the set cause MK should not lose on his CP. If u are not MK u have a disadvantage on game 1 and u can still win ur CP but so should they since u arent MK.

 

[AllyKnight]

What was going on in your head when you beat silverdoc

"This guy is a scrub"

nah lol, I was just like Yes..... show me your lose.

I beat many people with Falcon. Atomsk's (who beats ADHD rarely/shadow's MK and top players) Don't **** with the captain. In a tournament near you oh and warios are all scared of playing my falcon, they just tell me 'no go snake' or they switch to some other chars. Bunch of *******! seriously LOL

 

[DallasPhat]

LOL At people using Phase 8 as a valid argument for Pro Ban. Have you not seen TX results outside of Phase? TBH Me and Dojo are the only consistent MKs to place top 4 in TX. Phase 8 had a HUGE skill gap. The gap from Dojo to me was tremendous, and the gap from me from the rest of the players there was pretty big/significant. TBH outside of me and Dojo everyone else could be consider just "randoms". Also I'm sorry that you know the top 6 all played MK, but they happened to be the best 6 players there at the time. If razer/gnes/dmg showed up results would of varied a ton.

 

[Espy Rose]

I don't think anyone's using it exclusively as evidence.

I think everyone's just laughing at it.
I know I am.