Official Metaknight Discussion

[fkacyan]

People think that GG is a bad MK stage?! People think that HALBERD is a bad MK stage?!

BAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

I swear, you complain about the character and fail to notice that those stages, Halberd especially, support some of his most broken traits.

 

[etecoon]

[collapse=MLG Ruleset]General Rules


Gameplay
2. No use of King Dedede’s Grab Infinites against Bowser, Donkey Kong, Luigi, Samus, and Mario. Oh wow, seriously? Wasn't I constantly told that this was a bad thing to ban?[/B

atlantic north always bans stuff like this and it seems to work out ok for us

 

[BSP]

Can anyone else see MK camping the side platforms on GG? How would you approach if you got forced to?

...You don't?

Falco is screwed.

 

[Justblaze647]

lol

Pretty sure there's now way to safely approach that...

What with the nado and uair and all...

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I dunno. I was on the "ban infinites" train until it crashed and died. Seeing as the debate ended with "anti-ban is completely right and DK/Mario/Bowser/Etc mains can suck it" I figured that was how things worked...

EDIT: whoops ninja'd

 

[etecoon]

I dunno. I was on the "ban infinites" train until it crashed and died. Seeing as the debate ended with "anti-ban is completely right and DK/Mario/Bowser/Etc mains can suck it" I figured that was how things worked...

"whoever yells loudest and longest wins" isn't always true

just most of the time

 

[Mota]

LOL on GG Toon Links Dsmash is a OHKO.

Team attack better be on.

 

[fkacyan]

Can anyone else see MK camping the side platforms on GG? How would you approach if you got forced to?

GaW is actually worse, because there is literally no character in the game who can safely approach him due to the properties of his upB behind the blocks. AA has a great writeup within the thread Adum linked about how stupid GaW's camping there is. When I pointed this out, I got the following responses:

Praxis: Well I've beaten GaW there before! <Orion* beat M2K's D3 with Falcon. And? This doesn't indicate anything.>
OS: Never caused problems yet so no reason to bother banning it. <Frame perfect planking hasn't really decided matches on a consistent basis either, but this is a bone of contention for banning a character!>

The stage is awful. I don't think it, Norfair, or Pictochat will see much use except by the characters who can abuse the properties of those stages to a ridiculous degree (GaW and MK for GG, maybe ROB if he sees any use, MK and (LOL) Jiggs on Norfair, and Falco on Picto).

Kinda how I'm willing to bet almost none of the extra 4 starters added will ever be started on.

 

[Flayl]

Was that 2v2 thing Omni's doing? Lol.

How come they aren't giving Distant Planet a chance? The walkoff is temporary.

 

[fkacyan]

Was that 2v2 thing Omni's doing? Lol.

How come they aren't giving Distant Planet a chance? The walkoff is temporary.

My favorite part is how MK can spam uairs under there without grabbing an edge. He's planking without edgegrabbing, except during the rain!

 

[Mota]

I disagree with the addition of Green Greens. Bombs, block walls, apples and wind. What is MLG thinking...
Lol.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bbqkPTbQ4HM

Right at he end at 5:09. TL dsmash OHKO
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iM-dzPDkeoE

 

[Justblaze647]

Wow... Jiggz, get wrecked

Also, old match is old...

Also, GG really isn't that bad... Stop complaining, read Praxis's thread, and practice

 

[Flayl]

Thiocyanide, what exactly is stopping characters from jumping over to the left of that spot?

That's like saying you can't approach people under the left platform in the first phase of the Frigate Orpheon stage...

 

[adumbrodeus]

I dunno. I was on the "ban infinites" train until it crashed and died. Seeing as the debate ended with "anti-ban is completely right and DK/Mario/Bowser/Etc mains can suck it" I figured that was how things worked...

EDIT: whoops ninja'd

The BBR has never voted to ban infinites.

 

[fkacyan]

Thiocyanide, what exactly is stopping characters from jumping over to the left of that spot?

That's like saying you can't approach people under the left platform in the first phase of the Frigate Orpheon stage...

Put yourself directly above somebody. In other words, in what is almost universally agreed upon to be one of the worst positions to be in.

Even if I didn't want to hit you, I could then jump through the stage and run to the right, and the side B over to the left again if you chased me.

Frigate is not comparable because you are on level with the person. You are above the person here and thus at a huge disadvantage.

 

[Flayl]

That honestly sounds like a load of poor theorycrafting. Maybe if you had mentioned circle-camping... I'll drop it.

 

[fkacyan]

That honestly sounds like a load of poor theorycrafting. Maybe if you had mentioned circle-camping... I'll drop it.

Um, what I just described was the basic premise for circle-camping on that stage.

I'm going to stop talking to you before I get so angry I start hurling insults.

 

[Masmasher@]

gg=mk
...

 

[Justblaze647]

Um, what I just described was the basic premise for circle-camping on that stage.

I'm going to stop talking to you before I get so angry I start hurling insults.

You are SOOOOO bad at this lol

 

[<π]

why can't you just break the blocks?

 

[fkacyan]

why can't you just break the blocks?

You can, but this can be bad for several reasons:
- The blocks come back over time
- Non-disjointed hitboxes on explosive blocks will damage you
- Hitlag for hitting the blocks opens you up for punish chances

 

[<π]

every character I can think of can break the blocks without taking damage... except maybe MK and gannondorf.

if you have that much hit stun from hitting a block then you are using the wrong move. don't knee LK or tipper blocks to get rid of them.

I think the stage is dumb too, but thats because you die so low there. I can't see it being very easy to camp well there.

 

[adumbrodeus]

You can, but this can be bad for several reasons:
- The blocks come back over time
- Non-disjointed hitboxes on explosive blocks will damage you
- Hitlag for hitting the blocks opens you up for punish chances

1. Leave the top block, if there's a block above the spot, it won't regenerate... ever.

2. Airdodge into it, only one hitbox frame and you can trigger it invincibly.

3. True.

every character I can think of can break the blocks without taking damage... except maybe MK and gannondorf.

if you have that much hit stun from hitting a block then you are using the wrong move. don't knee LK or tipper blocks to get rid of them.

I think the stage is dumb too, but thats because you die so low there. I can't see it being very easy to camp well there.

Unless a character can't airdodge... they can take them out.


It IS a really small stage though.

 

[theunabletable]

2. Airdodge into it, only one hitbox frame and you can trigger it invincibly.

Am I the only one who thinks that this would be ridiculously predictable and easy to punish if every time you go past the blocks you have to air dodge?

every character I can think of can break the blocks without taking damage... except maybe MK and gannondorf.

IIRC MK can grounded Shuttle Loop and it'll destroy the block without him taking damage...

Wouldn't Olimar be absolutely ******** there? No gimping problems really, upsmash'll kill at like 20 lol, the trajectory of his side-B would allow him to camp behind the wall by just lobbing Picmen over it...

Oh and MLG ruleset = lol

 

[MKOwnage]

I just want to know why some people thought GG was a bad stage for MK. To hell its not.

 

[Praxis]

GaW is actually worse, because there is literally no character in the game who can safely approach him due to the properties of his upB behind the blocks. AA has a great writeup within the thread Adum linked about how stupid GaW's camping there is. When I pointed this out, I got the following responses:

That writeup basically explains why characters without a projectile and with poor mobility can't approach G&W. Which is, basically, Dedede.

Read the writeup; he was explaining why G&W ***** Dedede. He doesn't have the mobility to get over the blocks and not get hit by the up-B.

I'm Peach, I'd throw turnips. MK could up-B the block wall with invincibility and then chase G&W normally. Snake could blow the whole thing up. Etc, etc.

 

[Praxis]

I just want to know why some people thought GG was a bad stage for MK. To hell its not.

Just camp the middle. He can't kill you off the top, and he can't gimp you because the stage is so wide. Sure, he can get to you and fight, you'll just...live forever.

Snake beats MK on Greens.

 

[MarKO X]

So now MK fights you, gets the lead...
he camps you and stuff...
you attack him regardless because "you'll just... live forever."
he dies off the top...

amirite?

 

[<π]

you'd throw grenades at him to force an approach.

 

[fkacyan]

EDIT: Whoa, I started theoryfighting.

That was ********.

 

[1048576]

I dunno. I was on the "ban infinites" train until it crashed and died. Seeing as the debate ended with "anti-ban is completely right and DK/Mario/Bowser/Etc mains can suck it" I figured that was how things worked...

EDIT: whoops ninja'd

Well, it's off topic now, but the prevailing argument was that since it required a pummel against Mario and Luigi (and Samus), it didn't really start until like 80-100, so it was little more than a really easy to set up kill move. ALSO YOU GUYS: it's wrong to cater to one character's bad matchups while ignoring another's. If you want to ban the Bowser/DK ownage, then you should also ban the really dumb cg Pikachu has on Fox, and then where can you draw the line?

 

[MarKO X]

you'd throw grenades at him to force an approach.

lolwait
i'm in the lead and my shield button doesn't work?

 

[Judo777]

Well, it's off topic now, but the prevailing argument was that since it required a pummel against Mario and Luigi (and Samus), it didn't really start until like 80-100, so it was little more than a really easy to set up kill move. ALSO YOU GUYS: it's wrong to cater to one character's bad matchups while ignoring another's. If you want to ban the Bowser/DK ownage, then you should also ban the really dumb cg Pikachu has on Fox, and then where can you draw the line?

The difference between all those things are as such. First of all pikas cg on fox as well as sheiks ftilt lockso nly work at certain percents and they stop working after a certain percent i want to say 50 is the number for everyone i just named (I mean if they dont start the lock or cg before this percent it wont work). D3 on the other hand i believe works at any and all percents and unlike Pika who has short grab reach D3 has insane grab reach. Also the infinites are against bad characters that he already ***** so why does he need another advantage. That however is just to follow up my main point of they stop working eventually.

 

[1048576]

So a chaingrab that goes to 998 is okay, but one that goes to 999 isn't. That's stupid.

The rest of your spiel about matchups is something I already covered in the post you quoted.
Pika's cg goes from 0-80, then thunderfilp for the kill. On some stages you don't even need the thunder.
And there are other infinites in the game that we don't care about.

 

[AvaricePanda]

The reaction to the character is the biggest problem that MK is causing.

Every little thing that MK does comes out with this amazing outcry.
1) MK was found out to be really really good on certain stages, people cried, and those stages got removed from various stage lists.
2) MK planked, people cried, and that resulted in LGLs, without knowing if planking was beatable or not.
3) MK air camped, people cried.
4) MK found a way to be invisible and invincible for as long as he wanted, and that glitch was banned within an hour of the video coming up on youtube.
5) MK scrooges, people cried, and now people want a way to limit that on top of the LGLs that caused scrooging in the first place.

And it goes deeper than that. I have seen and heard many people say both on the boards and in person that they've lost to an MK that was obviously not as skilled as they were, since you know, MK is easy to use, has no bad macthups, etc. This view of MK is also a problem.

I'm sure there's more, but I'm going to have to admit that I've gotten tired of typing for the moment...

and lol @ MLG's rules.

This is more of an overreaction than anything else. Some of what you said is blown up regardless, for example:

Stages banned solely because of MK? The only one I can think of is Norfair, and that's debatable. I agree that techniques like his planking should have been looked at more before the LGL implementation, but "issues" like his IDC or air camping aren't real issues. His IDC is a clearly broken tactic—it is stalling and stalling is banned. It's a simple ban that shouldn't be looked into. His air camping is a viable strategy that many characters can beat—Wario even does the same thing with his air camping, yet people blow up issues with MK and some seriously considered banning the technique with MK while the same people disregarded Wario.

I'm sure that people have lost to MKs "less skilled" than them, but that's what happens when you enter a bad match-up that you don't know. I have similar troubles with Game and Watch; I hate him and do poorly against him even if I feel like he's being predictable. There's nobody to blame for losing to an MK but yourself.

You said the biggest problem MK is causing is the reaction to the character. However, this doesn't seem to have an impact of the overall state of the community. Most of the negative reactions I see towards him are on the boards. I haven't seen people get visibly frustrated and in a bad mood in-person over MK. His existence doesn't seem to leave negative memories on bad or good players that go to tournaments except in special cases. Why is he a problem?

 

[Judo777]

So a chaingrab that goes to 998 is okay, but one that goes to 999 isn't. That's stupid.

The rest of your spiel about matchups is something I already covered in the post you quoted.
Pika's cg goes from 0-80, then thunderfilp for the kill. On some stages you don't even need the thunder.
And there are other infinites in the game that we don't care about.

i think u missed what i was saying. first of all ur numbers are wrong. Pikas cg on fox and sheik (btw im a sheik main) are identical. pika can cg fox and sheik with dthrow from i believe 23 - 98 tho im not postive of those number but they are very close. Im also not sure about fox but i know that pikas upsmash doesnt kill at sheik 100 with proper di and i doubt fox is much lighter (tho he may be). But more importantly the cg begins at 23 percent (before that fox can shine pika out of it and sheik can buffer a footstool to escape). Pika can however fthrow cg them from 0 to about 30 or so he can cg us with that if there is the space provided then begin the dthrow one.

Most importantly if we can manage to not get grabbbed after 50% we are no longer in the threat of the cg since at that point it will not work anymore.

D3 on the other hand his dthrow doesnt require set decay and works at all percents and never ends so its guarenteed death no matter what u do. 1 grab = a stock no matter what the condition ( assuming its done right).

 

[Master Raven]

http://allisbrawl.com/blogpost.aspx?id=62195

I'm officially pro-ban.

 

[etecoon]

http://allisbrawl.com/blogpost.aspx?id=62195

I'm officially pro-ban.

wow that changes everything

**** meta knight ban this ****er right NOW

 

[6Mizu]

Grrr...I hope you guys know how boring Brawl Tactical is with this stupid "MK Discussion".

 

[MarKO X]

This is more of an overreaction than anything else. Some of what you said is blown up regardless, for example:

Stages banned solely because of MK? The only one I can think of is Norfair, and that's debatable. I agree that techniques like his planking should have been looked at more before the LGL implementation, but "issues" like his IDC or air camping aren't real issues. His IDC is a clearly broken tactic—it is stalling and stalling is banned. It's a simple ban that shouldn't be looked into. His air camping is a viable strategy that many characters can beat—Wario even does the same thing with his air camping, yet people blow up issues with MK and some seriously considered banning the technique with MK while the same people disregarded Wario.

Using IDC to stall is broken because it's stalling. That I agree with.
But why is using IDC for non-stalling tactics a problem?

I'm sure that people have lost to MKs "less skilled" than them, but that's what happens when you enter a bad match-up that you don't know. I have similar troubles with Game and Watch; I hate him and do poorly against him even if I feel like he's being predictable. There's nobody to blame for losing to an MK but yourself.

That's a case by case basis IMO. I know that isn't a strong argument, but with MK, you might have gotten timed out with little to nothing that you could have done about it. Also, as far as knowing the MK matchup... it's obviously one of the most popular matchups in the game, so is that still a legit point, that you don't know the MK matchup?

You said the biggest problem MK is causing is the reaction to the character. However, this doesn't seem to have an impact of the overall state of the community. Most of the negative reactions I see towards him are on the boards. I haven't seen people get visibly frustrated and in a bad mood in-person over MK. His existence doesn't seem to leave negative memories on bad or good players that go to tournaments except in special cases. Why is he a problem?

He's a problem because whether he's broken or not, TOs across the board have modified rules to keep players coming to their tourneys with MK in it. Yeah, the vast majority of the negative reactions to MK come from the boards, but the negative reactions to MK still exist.