Official Metaknight Discussion

[fkacyan]

you can't just say something like that without actually sharing the data, it would seem...suspicious

He gave us his methodology, there's nothing stopping anybody from replicating it and proving him wrong.

Or this. http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=267771

 

[adumbrodeus]

haven't visited the melee boards pretty much in like 3 years, didn't know they had such a thing. wouldn't have hurt him to link to it seeing as a lot of us are barwl ***s : p

He explicitly said that he replicated Ankoku's methodology, and the reporting methodology requires a thread, it behooved you to look.


This location is non-obvious however.

 

[etecoon]

actually he said he followed ankoku's method for RANKING characters, he said nothing about reporting, from what he had said he could've just as well made numbers up even though he didn't. first rule of good informative writing is assume that your reader knows nothing, because many times they are idiots like me ; )

 

[<π]

Long post warning. The three bolded posts are my concerns.

How much dominance is too much?

This has been brought up before and quickly dismissed, but it's a serious question. The pro-ban argument has shown a lot of information that Meta Knight is dominating; this is something that shouldn't come as a surprise. However, we don't know if the dominance is banworthy because we don't know how much dominance is too much. The cutoff would be different from person to person, so the information shown could be overdomination to some and perfectly fine to others

Any dominance cutoffs created by this point would be biased — that much is obvious.

What happens after Meta Knight is banned?

Again, this is another point that's been brought up. We only know a few things for certain:

1)An MK ban will force a large chunk of the Brawl community to change their mains for MK banned events.
2)An MK ban (should) bring in more varied tournament results.

The former is the only thing we really know for sure. There's no true proof of the latter happening, but it's hard to argue against with the character rankings and match-ups presented. What happens past then — increased tournament attendance, a split in the community, past MK mains remaining top pros, new players coming, Brawl lasting longer, etc — is all speculation. We have no way of knowing what will actually happen, but there are definitely many concerns about what would happen to the community.

Suppose you take a region, like Atlantic North, that has a good amount of MK mains, and it's after the MK ban. Would all of the TOs follow through with the ban? Suppose they all or mostly don't, and within Atlantic North the competitive scene remains as it usually has been. What happens if they try to host a national, or MK players want to compete in a national out of region? They probably won't be able to well because of the MK-banned vs. MK-legal tournament attendee discord. Suppose some TOs follow the ban and others keep MK legal. What happens to attendance within region with all of the MK mains? Will they only go to MK allowed tournaments? Will non-MK mains go to those same tournaments, or will they keep to the MK banned ones? Will they just switch mains? Suppose most or all TOs follow the ban. What happens to the large chunk of MK mains in the region? There probably won't be enough people that quit because of MK and are waiting to come back to fill in their shoes, so does the region just suffer if all the MK mains decide to quit? Or do they just switch mains?

There are too many questions that we can't answer because we don't know for sure what will happen with an MK ban. The game could turn out better or worse, but we don't know.

(One thing that an MK ban will not do, however, is magically increase tournament attendees. While some increase may happen over time, a bunch of new players won't join the competitive scene simply because MK is banned. Attendance is somewhat different only in the sense that if a region is literally turning into MK dittos and people are quitting in the region because of that, then an MK ban would increase the attendance. It won't bring in new players or tournament goers. That's more of the issue of the tournament itself. I'll expand on this later.)

A possible solution for the “We don't know anything!” dilemna is a temp ban. Banning MK for a time period like 6 months could provide the evidence we need to make a final verdict. However, I'm very wary about a temp ban because we don't know for sure if the evidence and results we find would show what we'd get with a permanent ban. It's all up to what the TOs and players do; if there's a split with MK-banned and MK-legal tournaments, we won't get very accurate results. If certain players just stop playing, or only go to MK-legal tournaments, etc., it's the same result.

Is Meta Knight a real problem in the Brawl community right now?

Think about this question for a second before you instantly say “yes.” This question is ignoring the theorycraft, the ban criteria concerns, the LGL rule specifics, all of that stuff — looking at the real picture of actual tournaments, is Meta Knight a real problem?

MK ban threads usually only come around the time of a national. CoT4, Genesis, SNES, Pound 4, etc, and there's usually not much commotion about the MK ban until then. When the thread comes up and we see tournament results, everybody goes frantic. Why? The results of nationals shouldn't be surprising; top players get top spots, a lot of top players main Meta Knight, Meta Knight gets a lot of top spots.

People like to throw around blanket statements of how much MK is destroying the community, how MK is overcentralizing the metagame, how MK is decreasing tournament attendance — I even heard that the game wouldn't last until 2010 (which is obviously false). However, what MK actually does to the community seems to be quite region specific. For example, I heard that New Mexico (from Dekar), GtaN (from Swordgard), and Puerto Rico (from Kewkky) have all had MK problems or overcentralization to the point where they had to ban the character. He would consistently be taking 6-7 out of the top 8, and people have stopped going to tournaments because of him in the regions. In that case, a ban is completely understandable.

What about everywhere else?

What about places like Atlantic North, where a lot of people main MK but a lot of people are fine with it, and a ban of MK would cut a large chunk of the playerbase? What about places like Eastern Midwest, where MK exists but isn't really dominating? In most places, sure MK has the top results since he's the best character in the game, but he's not a real problem. People have mentioned the slow decline of tournament attendance and have correlated it with the slow increase of MK's results. Honest question: Do you think a ban of MK will boost tournament attnedance in your region?

If you answered yes, stop and think for a bit. I said before in a parenthetical remark that a MK ban wouldn't bring any more new attendees, and except for special cases such as New Mexico, GtaN, and Puerto Rico, his ban wouldn't really bring much more tournament attendance. Certain regions have been having trouble with attendance recently, and more likely than not it isn't because of MK dominance that attendance is declining, but of tournaments themselves.

The MD/VA tournament scene was struggling a few months ago (not sure if it's the same now) mainly because of how tournaments were run. They usually had $10 venue fees, not great venues, top 3 payouts, and sometimes no pools. This is horrible for anybody who isn't around top 5-10 in the region, and it's especially horrible for the worse players. Imagine being new to the competitive scene (AKA probably not good), driving a good distance to go to a tournament, shelling out $30 for entry+gas+food, having the tournament go slowly because of the lack of set-ups, and when it's all said and done you only play two matches because of the lack of pools. That's not even worst case scenario — that happens in quite a lot of tournaments (I'm not taking a stab at MD/VA by the way, this is just in general). They're set up and run badly, and as a result the lower end of the player spectrum has a bad experience and no motivation to go to future tournaments. They don't see much hope of getting better, and it just isn't fun for them. This leads to tournament attendance decline. Things like losing to a planking Meta Knight may contribute a small bit to this, but it's hardly the main reason why attendance is lacking.

Now let's take a look at Ohio. Ohio's tournaments are amazingly well run, and as a result they have a huge and very competitive scene. If you have the time, I'd advise you to read this thread (it's the chat between AlphaZealot and Takeover, and AZ gives great advice on how to run a tournament. How his tournaments are run are pretty much how most of Ohio's tournaments are run).

Anyway, I've heard from pretty much all sources, from AIM, on SWF, and in person, that Ohio tournaments are just fun experiences. TOs and helpers such as AZ, Nope, Keist, and OS all do the suggested things for smooth and fun tournaments, so it caters really well to everyone. They have cheap entry fees, tournaments that run on time, pools, and tournaments in each region: Springfield, Cincinnati, Columbus, NEOH. The result is a large amount of good players all competing for the Ohio Power Rankings.

I don't know from experience, but I heard that SoCal was in a slump similar to MD/VA, but Champ with 2GoodGaming has stepped it up with tournaments and helped boost the scene there.

Overall, what I'm trying to say is that region's tournament success or tournament troubles doesn't seem to have anything to do with MK. All of those regions have their share of MK mains, good and bad. Their existence doesn't have an effect on the tournament scenes.

Those are my three viewpoints on those questions. I feel that MK's dominance is region specific and we can't put a broad blanket over how MK performs in the world. I feel that we can't know what will happen afterwards if a ban was instituted, and there's no evidence to suggest the ban will improve the community. I feel that MK isn't even a problem in the community right now, and while we can argue over specifics about him on SWF, he doesn't have actual impact on a region's tournament attendance — other factors do and we should be addressing those. Because of all this, I'm anti-ban.

I know for a fact I left something major out I wanted to say. I also lost focus towards the end of this and rambled on some points. This is much wordier than I hoped. Hopefully anyone who wants to say anything about my points won't nitpick at small things and will get the big picture of what I'm saying, but hopefully people aren't strictly arguing against my points anyway; it's exactly what we shouldn't be doing. We've been having redundant arguments over the MK ban since fall of 2008, and we haven't accomplished much or anything since then.

Ooops, acidentally quoted this post more people need to read.

 

[fkacyan]

actually he said he followed ankoku's method for RANKING characters, he said nothing about reporting, from what he had said he could've just as well made numbers up even though he didn't. first rule of good informative writing is assume that your reader knows nothing, because many times they are idiots like me ; )

Again, there is a location for this.

One point I've been stating for over a year now is that banning MK isn't going to matter to most of the community; most of us suck and will never place in the money. It'll just be a placebo, as our perceived reason for loss will disappear. The actual reasons will still be there, though, we'll just be happier to lose as a community for whatever reason.

 

[adumbrodeus]

The reporting methodology is part of the ranking methodology... how one obtains the raw data is generally the most important part of any data interpretation methodology.


Regardless, could he have included more info? Yes, but the point is that you should've followed the obvious hints and are therefore lazy or are bad at picking up implications, aka a very bad person.

j/k, just messin.

 

[etecoon]

yea, I checked that after it was mentioned before. point was that for someone that gave up melee when brawl came out(a lot of us) and doesn't check those boards anymore, we wouldn't have assumed the existence of that thread and his post was very vague and non-informative about his data, a simple link would have made it clear

edit because adum ninja'd me: I am in fact a very lazy troll, so? <_<

 

[Orion*]

Hadn't seen that post before, AvaricePanda. I'll put it on my to-do list.

where have you been, we have all greatly missed your insight! i thought you left us pro banners forever ;_;

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

edit because adum ninja'd me: I am in fact a very lazy troll, so? <_<

Can ya just get out then? Anyone who's just here to troll?

Also, I really await Crow!'s response to AP's post. IMO, it is the first truly good anti-ban post in this thread, and it's really quite a doozy.

 

[fkacyan]

Can ya just get out then? Anyone who's just here to troll?

Also, I really await Crow!'s response to AP's post. IMO, it is the first truly good anti-ban post in this thread, and it's really quite a doozy.

"This thread" being the operative phrase here. Many of those points have been made in other forms by other posters AND AP in older threads.

Not saying it's not an excellent post, but you are a bit late to the party.

 

[etecoon]

Anyone who's just here to troll?

when you go into a community you're not part of and vehemently argue a subject to death with bad arguments I'd define that as trolling

 

[Tommy_G]

Ah. Makes sense. Why aren't more brawl tournaments doing this, though?

Because 1) Not many people go to normal local tournaments already, at least not now at least(gigabits use to have 140 people for a state level tournament) 2) There's no way to prove there will be a lot of people unless people prepay. 3) People in the smash community don't think they have any power or influence with talking to people in a business.

For number 3, why hasn't someone tried to talk to an airline company or a hotel company to give a smash community a discount if we exclusively use their airline or hotels?

 

[OverLade]

For number 3, why hasn't someone tried to talk to an airline company or a hotel company to give a smash community a discount if we exclusively use their airline or hotels?

Excellent post is excellent.

 

[fkacyan]

For number 3, why hasn't someone tried to talk to an airline company or a hotel company to give a smash community a discount if we exclusively use their airline or hotels?

I'd be willing to bet as MLG gets bigger and if Smash is successful in the circuit we'll be hearing about stuff like this on the sooner side.

 

[Delvro]

Also, I really await Crow!'s response to AP's post. IMO, it is the first truly good anti-ban post in this thread, and it's really quite a doozy.

I have to agree. Perhaps not the whole thread, but definitely for the past month or so. It's the first reasonable anti-ban post I've seen in a long while.

However, I know for a fact that people quit because of Metaknight and only Metaknight. Multiple people that I know personally have done so. I can't speak for the entire nation, but I know that banning Metaknight will improve the competitive population in my area. I've watched them quit, and banning MK will bring these people back.

But of course, there's more to the smash community than Kentucky, and I know that.

 

[etecoon]

I have to agree. Perhaps not the whole thread, but definitely for the past month or so. It's the first reasonable anti-ban post I've seen in a long while.

most of us just realize that this thread is worthless so we just troll, OVERSWARM leader of the ban movement abandoned this thread, should give you an indicator of its current usefulness. this thread needed to be locked, a long time ago.

 

[Ripple]

I just played a game where an ike F-smash continuously clanked with MK's tornado. it showed all those little bubbles that appear when something hits the hitboxes.

this wasn't a miss also, it went through all of him but did not not do anything. ike's f-smash lost to tornado.

**** MK and his broken ***

 

[etecoon]

man that's really bad news for all the ike's that use fsmash as their main zoning tool, this completely cripples what was a totally viable character

 

[vVv Rapture]

I'd be willing to bet as MLG gets bigger and if Smash is successful in the circuit we'll be hearing about stuff like this on the sooner side.

No you won't, sorry to say. MLG does not do outside discounts. Discounts on their stuff, sure. None of that.

If they haven't done it for Halo (and they have not since Combat Evolved), I will bet any amount of money they won't for Smash. The most you'll get is a stipend, seeding points and maybe some free stuff. That's it.

That's, of course, if MLG doesn't get bigger, which it won't in the immediate future because of how it runs things.

 

[fkacyan]

No you won't, sorry to say. MLG does not do outside discounts. Discounts on their stuff, sure. None of that.

If they haven't done it for Halo (and they have not since Combat Evolved), I will bet any amount of money they won't for Smash. The most you'll get is a stipend, seeding points and maybe some free stuff. That's it.

That's, of course, if MLG doesn't get bigger, which it won't in the immediate future because of how it runs things.

Bigger has nothing to do with the number of people; it has to do with how they're sponsored.

That's all I have to say on the subject, though, honestly that entire point is amazingly OT.

BTW LOCK THREAD PL0X

 

[Blacknight99923]

When only MK wins all tournaments will i ever consider he be banned
lock this he clearly didn't win pound4 of genesis

 

[AvaricePanda]

I wasn't really looking to argue on my post at all (as you can see by the last paragraph). I mean, go ahead, but it was information that needed to be brought up IMO before a ban was considered/reached. We're playing too much Super Theory Bros. Brawl to know what's really causing problems, and banning MK is too far of a leap of faith to be a plausible solution.

If anything I just wanted to spark discussion and compromise (and show that it's tournaments themselves rather than MK that causes tournament attendance in regions to drop). We should be doing what's best for the community. The entire issue can't be as black as white as "pro-ban" or anti-ban", especially when some people (me) think that MK isn't even the source of the problem.

I honestly just believe that if all regions were like Ohio and stepped up how tournaments were run, we'd get a much larger and more lasting boost in the tournament scene compared to a risky leap of faith like banning MK.

/redundantpost

 

[Humpy Thrashabout]

Guys, Fox is just as dominant in melee and we don't ***** about it even though his worst match-up is arguably even.

I personally followed ankoku's method of ranking characters and found that fox has about 500 points over the 2nd most winning character. The 2nd and 3rd ranked characters are completely buffed by 1-2 people alone (mango happens to win the biggest tournaments in the world with falco and puff) and without those people fox has twice the points the 2nd best character has. The data is currently incomplete but the trends match what ankoku's list has shown for brawl.

tl;dr get over it.

Prove it. I could say Wario dominates 6969 times every other character. I would need to post the data for anyone to believe me.

EDIT: Sorry my laptop battery died when I was posting and it finished sending when I brought it out of sleep mode a few hours later.

 

[fkacyan]

Prove it. I could say Wario dominates 6969 times every other character. I would need to post the data for anyone to believe me.

EDIT: Sorry my laptop battery died when I was posting and it finished sending when I brought it out of sleep mode a few hours later.

You might want to go down to the Melee boards and read the thread formatted exactly like Ankoku's.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

when you go into a community you're not part of and vehemently argue a subject to death with bad arguments I'd define that as trolling

Your definition of troll is terrible.

 

[Espy Rose]

I wasn't really looking to argue on my post at all (as you can see by the last paragraph). I mean, go ahead, but it was information that needed to be brought up IMO before a ban was considered/reached. We're playing too much Super Theory Bros. Brawl to know what's really causing problems, and banning MK is too far of a leap of faith to be a plausible solution.

If anything I just wanted to spark discussion and compromise (and show that it's tournaments themselves rather than MK that causes tournament attendance in regions to drop). We should be doing what's best for the community. The entire issue can't be as black as white as "pro-ban" or anti-ban", especially when some people (me) think that MK isn't even the source of the problem.

I honestly just believe that if all regions were like Ohio and stepped up how tournaments were run, we'd get a much larger and more lasting boost in the tournament scene compared to a risky leap of faith like banning MK.

/redundantpost

I see what you mean. I agreed with pretty much the entirety of your post, and I'm sure others would as well. I personally find it difficult to argue with something I agree with.

I'm also swaying moreso to how ShadowLink is looking at it. A character who's constantly being "fixed" so he remains viable raises a red flag to me, personally.

That, and the LGL doesn't permanently solve anything. Scrooging is still out and about as well.

At the moment though, I'm all for a temporary ban on the character. We're all just playing guessing games with the "what ifs" of banning the character. Why not give the temp-ban a go, and actually gather some insightful information?

Is there any real harm in doing so?

 

[adumbrodeus]

When only MK wins all tournaments will i ever consider he be banned
lock this he clearly didn't win pound4 of genesis

Uhwhat?


All that says is that it's your personal standard for bans, not that it's the only relevant one by far, and as we've established there is no rigid standard.

Prove it. I could say Wario dominates 6969 times every other character. I would need to post the data for anyone to believe me.

EDIT: Sorry my laptop battery died when I was posting and it finished sending when I brought it out of sleep mode a few hours later.

Why can't people think to read the board where it would most likely be when somebody says something like this?


It's stickied in melee discussion.

when you go into a community you're not part of and vehemently argue a subject to death with bad arguments I'd define that as trolling

Very funny, it's obvious he's involved enough to lead the development of a hack, as well as he plans to attend tournaments when possible.

He's a part of the community, if only because of what he's done with the hacking community.

 

[fkacyan]

I see what you mean. I agreed with pretty much the entirety of your post, and I'm sure others would as well. I personally find it difficult to argue with something I agree with.

I'm also swaying moreso to how ShadowLink is looking at it. A character who's constantly being "fixed" so he remains viable raises a red flag to me, personally.

That, and the LGL doesn't permanently solve anything. Scrooging is still out and about as well.

At the moment though, I'm all for a temporary ban on the character. We're all just playing guessing games with the "what ifs" of banning the character. Why not give the temp-ban a go, and actually gather some insightful information?

Is there any real harm in doing so?

Absolutely none. None at all. Anybody in either camp arguing against it is either upset that they could be proven wrong (An absolute decree eliminates that possibility) or has the legitimate concern that we're in the middle of an MLG season.

I still don't see what the issue is with running MK-banned side events at major tourneys instead of low tiers or something. Does the rest of the country not take these as seriously as NJ does or something?

 

[Espy Rose]

Absolutely none. None at all. Anybody in either camp arguing against it is either upset that they could be proven wrong (An absolute decree eliminates that possibility) or has the legitimate concern that we're in the middle of an MLG season.

The bold pretty much sums up a thought that occurred to me as I posted.

Otherwise, there really is no other reason.
I would think it'd be plausible to run them as side tournaments, and it'd be nice to finally start compiling temp-ban data to look at.

I still don't see what the issue is with running MK-banned side events at major tourneys instead of low tiers or something. Does the rest of the country not take these as seriously as NJ does or something?

*shrugs*

At least down here in Texasland, everything kinda feels mellow (to me, at least). I don't think I ever feel pressured or "serious" in a tournament setting down here...

Unless I play Gnes or some other high leveled player. Then things get kinda intense for a minute, then settle back down.

 

[etecoon]

Very funny, it's obvious he's involved enough to lead the development of a hack, as well as he plans to attend tournaments when possible.

He's a part of the community, if only because of what he's done with the hacking community.

the hacking community is separate, brawl+/- are different games

 

[MarKO X]

hmmmm...

the Melee Fox - Brawl MK comparison... makes me laugh... but maybe I'm ignorant.
I'm seeing Melee Fox having approximately 400 more points than Melee Jiggs and Brawl MK having approximately 2000 more points than Brawl Snake. I'm not even talking about banworthyness right here, I just wanna know how the comparison of dominance can be made here...
=============================================
1) How much dominance is too much?
Depends on the person. Some people believe that his current dominance is enough. Some people want MK to at least win nationals. Some people think MK should be winning nationals and taking 90% of the rest of the spots...

Personally, dominance is an important factor to banning a character, but it's not the end all factor.

2) What happens after Meta Knight is banned?
Depends on what the community wants to do. It sounds like the banning of MK will split the community, or at least have some negative ripples... however, every ban MK discussion that lead to MK not getting banned also leads to negative ripples... like someone said, you can't please everyone.

As far as the tourney scene is concerned, it really depends on how united the community wants to remain. If the BBR bans MK, will regions be like "f*ck the BBR!" and continue to run events with MK allowed? Or will everyone buckle down and ban MK? The latter seems unlikely since it seems like no one follows the BBR ruleset down to a T anyway, be it a difference in LGLs, stages, etc.

3) Is Meta Knight a real problem in the Brawl community right now?
MK isn't the sole problem with the Brawl community right now. Like, if regions like MD/VA have issues with how they run tourneys, then that needs to be dealt with. Another thing that I think is a problem is the inconsistency in rulesets from region to region. The Brawl community needs more unity in that regard as well. And to say ignore LGLs when TOs apply the rule in an effort to keep MK from being too cheap so that people have inspiration to attend their tourneys is kinda lol, since it's clear that MK is an issue.

So yeah, MK is a real problem in the Brawl community, but he's not the only problem in the Brawl community. Fixing the other problems might not fix MK, and fixing MK might not fix the other problems.
====================================================
A question about MK-banned side events: don't side events generally have less turnout, less payout, and force players to come up with money that they may not already have, especially in economic hard times like these?

 

[adumbrodeus]

the hacking community is separate, brawl+/- are different games

They're both part of the smash community, and being involved certainly shows dedication to the overall community.


Considering how useful and influential the hacking community has been, calling them irrelevant to the Brawl community at large is... a little daft.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Melee Fox=/=MK

Just thought I'd make that known.

It's expected for an amazing character to win alot. It's different if it's becoming the same character filling up spots 1-10. With little to no variation. Because the guy who is already playing a character that beats about 28 other characters in the game, still can't get the job done because MK ruins him and every possible secondary outside of well...MK. But I'm sure this argument was made 650 pages ago.

What arguments can we throw out now? How about his costume colors? Red MK is SatanKnight.

SMYM11 (3/13/10, 108 entrants):
1. Fox
2. Fox
3. Ice Climbers
4. Fox
5. Fox
5. Fox
7. Falcon
7. Sheik

you can't just say something like that without actually sharing the data, it would seem...suspicious

If someone references data and you'd like to see more, your first step is to go look for the data before calling bull****. Its stickied in the melee discussion boards. I managed to find my way here, i expect you to be able to find your way there.

 

[MarKO X]

Sveet, could you answer this:
the Melee Fox - Brawl MK comparison... makes me laugh... but maybe I'm ignorant.
I'm seeing Melee Fox having approximately 400 more points than Melee Jiggs and Brawl MK having approximately 2000 more points than Brawl Snake. I'm not even talking about banworthyness right here, I just wanna know how the comparison of dominance can be made here...

 

[fkacyan]

Sveet, could you answer this:
the Melee Fox - Brawl MK comparison... makes me laugh... but maybe I'm ignorant.
I'm seeing Melee Fox having approximately 400 more points than Melee Jiggs and Brawl MK having approximately 2000 more points than Brawl Snake. I'm not even talking about banworthyness right here, I just wanna know how the comparison of dominance can be made here...

There's an excellent post Adum linked to earlier of the ratio of points to players for each character.

 

[etecoon]

If someone references data and you'd like to see more, your first step is to go look for the data before calling bull****. Its stickied in the melee discussion boards. I managed to find my way here, i expect you to be able to find your way there.

I didn't call bull ****, I asked you to cite your sources, as most intelligent people would do.

 

[AvaricePanda]

2) What happens after Meta Knight is banned?
Depends on what the community wants to do. It sounds like the banning of MK will split the community, or at least have some negative ripples... however, every ban MK discussion that lead to MK not getting banned also leads to negative ripples... like someone said, you can't please everyone.

3) Is Meta Knight a real problem in the Brawl community right now?
MK isn't the sole problem with the Brawl community right now. Like, if regions like MD/VA have issues with how they run tourneys, then that needs to be dealt with. Another thing that I think is a problem is the inconsistency in rulesets from region to region. The Brawl community needs more unity in that regard as well. And to say ignore LGLs when TOs apply the rule in an effort to keep MK from being too cheap so that people have inspiration to attend their tourneys is kinda lol, since it's clear that MK is an issue.

So yeah, MK is a real problem in the Brawl community, but he's not the only problem in the Brawl community. Fixing the other problems might not fix MK, and fixing MK might not fix the other problems.

I pretty much agree with you, but I have questions on what I bolded in your responses.

You mentioned that the not banning of MK causes negative ripples, and you also mentioned that MK is a real problem in the Brawl community. You mention the problems but don't say specifically what they are. What are the specific problems that MK is causing to the Brawl community?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Sveet, could you answer this:
the Melee Fox - Brawl MK comparison... makes me laugh... but maybe I'm ignorant.
I'm seeing Melee Fox having approximately 400 more points than Melee Jiggs and Brawl MK having approximately 2000 more points than Brawl Snake. I'm not even talking about banworthyness right here, I just wanna know how the comparison of dominance can be made here...

fox's points are from countless number of fox mains and secondaries. falco & puff's points are from mango and hungry box. Once i finish adding all the tournaments to my new program i'll be able to tell you exactly how many points fox has over them without the boost from 2 tournaments (which gave both of those characters around 1k points).

 

[-Kiros-]

To Panda: Everyone is saying planking and scrooging, broken moveset too.

 

[ShadowLink84]

I just played a game where an ike F-smash continuously clanked with MK's tornado. it showed all those little bubbles that appear when something hits the hitboxes.

this wasn't a miss also, it went through all of him but did not not do anything. ike's f-smash lost to tornado.

**** MK and his broken ***

Actually you are wrong.
Ike' Fsmash did beat out the tornado.
The thing is that special moves will clang and continue their movement but your attack will break theirs.

MK's tornado is multihit and its disjointed, so it wont work as normal.
It requires precise spacing.