Official Metaknight Discussion

[fkacyan]

Why does the Pika matchup even matter? Pro-ban likes talking about outliers, Anther placing with Pikachu is a perfect example of that. -_-

 

[AvaricePanda]

LLLLLLLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL

You guys are arguing about subjective and lightweight match-up numbers.

AGAIN.

For at least the hundredth time out of this entire ban debate.

Congratulations.

 

[etecoon]

Why does the Pika matchup even matter? Pro-ban likes talking about outliers, Anther placing with Pikachu is a perfect example of that. -_-

it's only doesn't count when it's inconvenient, duh

 

[fkacyan]

it's only doesn't count when it's inconvenient, duh

How is it inconvenient? It's just irrelevant.

Bah, I'm gonna play SC2. Avarice, have fun with these guys, it's getting tiring.

 

[Orion*]

Dont misunderstan what i said i was saying having 6 45/55 matchups is about as good as having 2 4/6 mathups. because while the matchups maybe not be as hard for diddy its a little against him and hes gotta learn 6 matchups instead of just learnning the 2.

and no snake doesnt beat sheik 6/4 is 55/45 and pika or rob is dangerously close to even. The boards actually say its their favor (rob that is) but that might not be right. Just like how everyone thinks MK is only 6/4 against like the whole game top tier exclued.

Also u have to take into account that matchups can also be swayed easier with stage picks because omg snake diddy and marth actually have bad stages. Unlike MK where it doesnt matter where u freaking take him.

A. you have ot learn EVERY matchup. it doesnt matter if you main mk or ganon. if you dont know the low tier matchups with mk, unless you seriously out think your opponent, YOU WILL LOSE. and even worse to bad characters. there are no "freebies" god this community is so **** lazy.

B. LOL snake ***** pikas balls off. get that **** out of here. and shiek has no safe way to really kill snake, nair @ 200% anyone? you can argue she can camp, but needles arent that big of a threat. She is MUCH easier that falco for snake.

C. snake does have a bad stage. diddy has unfavorable ones, but not end all. check ADHD brah, people need to step up their cp game. Marth Sucks, but assuming he didnt, he doesnt have bad stages other than RC, wich is arguable and an easy ban.

oh and. @ chuee. FD is not a bad mk stage.

 

[Judo777]

Why does the Pika matchup even matter? Pro-ban likes talking about outliers, Anther placing with Pikachu is a perfect example of that. -_-

Who said anything about anther? I didnt bring up any person im talking about characters.

@Chue BS FD is a bad MK stage. FD is a stage that MK isnt as outstanding on because its a little easier to camp him on that stage. its still not a bad MK stage. Its only bad in the sense that it is good for some of the characters that give MK trouble (diddy and ICs) but just cause ICs are good on SV doesnt mean that sheik is bad there. (sorry i use lots of sheik references cause i main her) And yea some of those matchups are ebateable although there is a current wario beating snake concensus on both boards but that beside the point either way snake has some unfavorable matchups that may be close to even but again those can be swayed with Cping kind of like the game was intended for.

Orion just demonstrated that he doesnt know anything about this game. Please have at least some knowledge of a character before arguing about them. And no you absolutely do NOT have to learn every matchup in order to win. I can pick D3 and not know much about playing DK but as long as i know the infinite that apllys to like 4 other characters and use basic game knowlegde i can easily come out on top.

On a side I highly doubt that M2K or Ally knows the........jigglypuff matchup so maybe i should pick her next tourney and destory them! (sarcasm if u didnt catch orion)

 

[Orion*]

Orion just demonstrated that he doesnt know anything about this game. Please have at least some knowledge of a character before arguing about them. And no you absolutely do NOT have to learn every matchup in order to win. I can pick D3 and not know much about playing DK but as long as i know the infinite that apllys to like 4 other characters and use basic game knowlegde i can easily come out on top.

On a side I highly doubt that M2K or Ally knows the........jigglypuff matchup so maybe i should pick her next tourney and destory them! (sarcasm if u didnt catch orion)

relevent tournaments have had the d3 infi banned, so yeah you actually do need to know it. i bet money if you just "pick D3" against will, bum or cable you will get **** on.

and. vanz, WHO DOESNT PLAY THIS GAME, took (i believe, it may have been bizkit/somebody else, i just remember it was a significant player) fatal to last hit on brinstar with jiggz in tournament so, you are quite wrong there.

edit: anyone see puffster place with jiggs at pound 4? LOL lots of 8:2 matchups im sure he went through

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

relevent tournaments have had the d3 infi banned, so yeah you actually do need to know it. i bet money if you just "pick D3" against will, bum or cable you will get **** on.

and. vanz, WHO DOESNT PLAY THIS GAME, took (i believe, it may have been bizkit/somebody else, i just remember it was a significant player) fatal to last hit on brinstar with jiggz in tournament so, you are quite wrong there.

edit: anyone see puffster place with jiggs at pound 4? LOL lots of 8:2 matchups im sure he went through

I think it depends if you fish for grabs like a ****** you will lose but if you know that if DK hits your shield once you can grab him no matter what move it is then I find it hard to believe you'd lose the match up.

 

[Judo777]

relevent tournaments have had the d3 infi banned, so yeah you actually do need to know it. i bet money if you just "pick D3" against will, bum or cable you will get **** on.

and. vanz, WHO DOESNT PLAY THIS GAME, took (i believe, it may have been bizkit/somebody else, i just remember it was a significant player) fatal to last hit on brinstar with jiggz in tournament so, you are quite wrong there.

edit: anyone see puffster place with jiggs at pound 4? LOL lots of 8:2 matchups im sure he went through

Um actually no im not wrong. First thing u said was took him to last hit aka he didnt win. Ok let me throw out a different example. If i play a gw player with jiggs ur saying that if he doesnt know how to fight jiggs ill still beat him? he doesnt need to know what to do he just does the same thing gw's always do throw out tons of aerials and jiggs really cant do anything about it. There are lots of high level players that dont know every matchup because they dont have to their character's traits can cover for their lack of knowledge.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I would have to disagree with the idea that banning MK WILL make this game more diverse/overcentralized/more fun.
Primarily because MK,while strong, is only there because he beats the characters who beat everyone else anyway.

I do think that MK's legality when determined, should be done for the best interest in the community.
Certainly we will lose people because they would not agree with MK being banned or remaining legal, but it should be done in a manner that ensures that the community wont try to rip itself in half.

Who beats everyone else? Every other character in the game has a non-MK counter.

Nobody quits the ****ing game because of mk.

ElDomonio, wanna help me out here? What % of attendees was Puerto Rico to Pound 4 again?

Long post warning. The three bolded posts are my concerns.

<**** post>

Hey guys; this guy knows what the **** he's talking about.

Too tired to bring up counterpoints; also kind of feeling that I wouldn't know what counterpoints to bring up. This is just a really, REALLY good post.

Falco has a 6-4 on Diddy? Maybe i'd accept that if both boards agreed to it, don't think Diddy mains have that.
Just because you quit the game doesn't mean you have to hate MK's guts. I know one guy who "supposedly" quit just because he got bored of the game. He's anti-ban. There's a lot of people that quit simply because they don't like the slow, campy nature of the game. Not just MK, but many other characters.

@Judo:
First off, Snake vs both of those is 55-45 arguably 50-50. Nobody EVER agreed to those.
Lets see, no Diddy does not have 6 55-45's ._.
Snake beats Sheik, ROB, & goes even maybe slight adv. with Pika. And from what I've heard he beats Wario too.

Also Dajayman/whoever else that dumb*** troll could be.
Fail troll is fail.
Good day.

EDIT: Judo, it actually matters where you take mk.
FD is a bad MK stage.

Snake still has bad, and several even matchups. DDD is a soft counter for Snake (you'll see more of him sans MK), so is Olimar, arguably, and so is ZSS. Then there's Diddy, who has an incredibly large number of soft counters who are completely shut out of the metagame either because they suck (jiggs) or because MK ***** them too hard (Luigi, Peach).

FD is not a bad MK stage. It has two ledges and no wall on the bottom.

EDIT: Are you guys gonna stop quoting Orion any time soon? Kinda defeats the purpose of blocking him.

 

[Orion*]

.If i play a gw player with jiggs ur saying that if he doesnt know how to fight jiggs ill still beat him?]

no because youre a scrub and you have no idea what to do in the mu. If you hypothetically, somehow gained the skill to actually be a good player, you would. yes, you would have to put in more work and be much more safe than your opponent, but thats the nature of the character.

 

[ElDominio]

ElDominio, wanna help me out here? What % of attendees was Puerto Rico to Pound 4 again?

Wasn't it %10????

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Wasn't it %10????

And how many of them have just quit brawl?

 

[Delta-cod]

you can argue the same thing with yoshi or sonic doing quite well vs metaknight.

wario is very debatable, i will agree that.

Argh, no. MK definitely wins the MU, as long as he's doing what he should be. Yoshi just happens to do relatively well.

I do believe Yoshi:Snake to be even, though.

A. you have ot learn EVERY matchup. it doesnt matter if you main mk or ganon. if you dont know the low tier matchups with mk, unless you seriously out think your opponent, YOU WILL LOSE. and even worse to bad characters. there are no "freebies" god this community is so **** lazy.

Pretty much how I've been able to wreck some MKs with Yoshi. It's funny that even as a low tier main, I haven't wizened up and learned every MU and get caught by surprise factor even though I use it. Learning all the MUs is definitely on my to-do list now, especially after Ktar.

 

[Orion*]

Argh, no. MK definitely wins the MU, as long as he's doing what he should be. Yoshi just happens to do relatively well.

I do believe Yoshi:Snake to be even, though.



Pretty much how I've been able to wreck some MKs with Yoshi. It's funny that even as a low tier main, I haven't wizened up and learned every MU and get caught by surprise factor even though I use it. Learning all the MUs is definitely on my to-do list now, especially after Ktar.

i know yoshi loses badly. lol, i play P_wii all the time. im saying that, he loses in the same way. people dont know matchups. its very simple

edit: i think snake wins 6:4 honestly. its still a fairly close match and yoshi can win though. i play the mu very weird though, ill show you my strat next time we're at the same tourny

 

[Delta-cod]

poor P_wii. =[

Yep, nobody really knows the MU, and when they do learn, it's like impossible. @_@

 

[King~]

Why does the Pika matchup even matter? Pro-ban likes talking about outliers, Anther placing with Pikachu is a perfect example of that. -_-

just wanna say this is a tad off

esam places top4 in his region all the time(Florida)
Frio also places top 4 in his region(WC canada)
Z place top 3 in his state and top 8 at regionals(WC)
K prime place top 3 at his locals(lol) and hes placing better out Larger tornaments now aswell(texas)

just info, hes not the only one placing anymore

 

[ShadowLink84]

Who beats everyone else? Every other character in the game has a non-MK counter.

The only characters that benefit from MK banning, in truth, is Marth.
only character.

Wario as well.
As I said, there will be more diversity, but not a massive amount.
Then again who can predict what happens unless MK is actually banned.

 

[Orion*]

poor P_wii. =[

Yep, nobody really knows the MU, and when they do learn, it's like impossible. @_@

you have like. no options. and you cant kill me. its actually sad we thought the muu was even at one point -.-

 

[Tommy_G]

I'm pretty sure MK isn't the reason for the decline Brawl tournament attendance. MLG Orlando started with 128 spots iirc and sold out in 2 days. They released 128 spots the next day and apparently sold out that day.

What's the difference between MLG vs other tournaments? Good sized guaranteed payouts. Brawl hasn't had one of these in a while.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

As I said, there will be more diversity, but not a massive amount.
Then again who can predict what happens unless MK is actually banned.

People need to suspect MK in a few tournaments and take him out of the tournaments. A few have done that, but we need a few more.

 

[Judo777]

oh sry guys i didnt know we were ignoring orion i can see why now ill stop referring to what he says. Lol at him assuming a player he has never met before is bad.

 

[Orion*]

yup. you suck awfully. probably better than cyanide though

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

oh sry guys i didnt know we were ignoring orion i can see why now ill stop referring to what he says. Lol at him assuming a player he has never met before is bad.

He's a lousy troll. Blocking him was the best thing I've done in the course of this thread.

I'm pretty sure MK isn't the reason for the decline Brawl tournament attendance. MLG Orlando started with 128 spots iirc and sold out in 2 days. They released 128 spots the next day and apparently sold out that day.

What's the difference between MLG vs other tournaments? Good sized guaranteed payouts. Brawl hasn't had one of these in a while.

This could be a point. But does attendance back up for the payouts at other tournaments? How is MLG not making a loss?

 

[demonictoonlink]

oh sry guys i didnt know we were ignoring orion i can see why now ill stop referring to what he says. Lol at him assuming a player he has never met before is bad.

You are bad. I am bad. He is bad.

If we aren't placing top 8 in nationals, we're bad.

 

[etecoon]

you don't want to respond to what he says, so he wins</pro ban logic from earlier in the thread>

 

[fkacyan]

yup. you suck awfully. probably better than cyanide though

 

[Tommy_G]

This could be a point. But does attendance back up for the payouts at other tournaments? How is MLG not making a loss?

Sponsors pay a lot of money in a spot where they can name-drop their company's name and products in area with a confirmed large amount of people with similar interests.

 

[Masmasher@]

You are bad. I am bad. He is bad.

If we aren't placing top 8 in nationals, we're bad.

LMFAO

10lol

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Sponsors pay a lot of money in a spot where they can name-drop their company's name and products in area with a confirmed large amount of people with similar interests.

Ah. Makes sense. Why aren't more brawl tournaments doing this, though?

 

[Orion*]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iBiWtk2K85I&feature=related

 

[AvaricePanda]

Long post warning. The three bolded posts are my concerns.

How much dominance is too much?

This has been brought up before and quickly dismissed, but it's a serious question. The pro-ban argument has shown a lot of information that Meta Knight is dominating; this is something that shouldn't come as a surprise. However, we don't know if the dominance is banworthy because we don't know how much dominance is too much. The cutoff would be different from person to person, so the information shown could be overdomination to some and perfectly fine to others

Any dominance cutoffs created by this point would be biased — that much is obvious.

What happens after Meta Knight is banned?

Again, this is another point that's been brought up. We only know a few things for certain:

1)An MK ban will force a large chunk of the Brawl community to change their mains for MK banned events.
2)An MK ban (should) bring in more varied tournament results.

The former is the only thing we really know for sure. There's no true proof of the latter happening, but it's hard to argue against with the character rankings and match-ups presented. What happens past then — increased tournament attendance, a split in the community, past MK mains remaining top pros, new players coming, Brawl lasting longer, etc — is all speculation. We have no way of knowing what will actually happen, but there are definitely many concerns about what would happen to the community.

Suppose you take a region, like Atlantic North, that has a good amount of MK mains, and it's after the MK ban. Would all of the TOs follow through with the ban? Suppose they all or mostly don't, and within Atlantic North the competitive scene remains as it usually has been. What happens if they try to host a national, or MK players want to compete in a national out of region? They probably won't be able to well because of the MK-banned vs. MK-legal tournament attendee discord. Suppose some TOs follow the ban and others keep MK legal. What happens to attendance within region with all of the MK mains? Will they only go to MK allowed tournaments? Will non-MK mains go to those same tournaments, or will they keep to the MK banned ones? Will they just switch mains? Suppose most or all TOs follow the ban. What happens to the large chunk of MK mains in the region? There probably won't be enough people that quit because of MK and are waiting to come back to fill in their shoes, so does the region just suffer if all the MK mains decide to quit? Or do they just switch mains?

There are too many questions that we can't answer because we don't know for sure what will happen with an MK ban. The game could turn out better or worse, but we don't know.

(One thing that an MK ban will not do, however, is magically increase tournament attendees. While some increase may happen over time, a bunch of new players won't join the competitive scene simply because MK is banned. Attendance is somewhat different only in the sense that if a region is literally turning into MK dittos and people are quitting in the region because of that, then an MK ban would increase the attendance. It won't bring in new players or tournament goers. That's more of the issue of the tournament itself. I'll expand on this later.)

A possible solution for the “We don't know anything!” dilemna is a temp ban. Banning MK for a time period like 6 months could provide the evidence we need to make a final verdict. However, I'm very wary about a temp ban because we don't know for sure if the evidence and results we find would show what we'd get with a permanent ban. It's all up to what the TOs and players do; if there's a split with MK-banned and MK-legal tournaments, we won't get very accurate results. If certain players just stop playing, or only go to MK-legal tournaments, etc., it's the same result.

Is Meta Knight a real problem in the Brawl community right now?

Think about this question for a second before you instantly say “yes.” This question is ignoring the theorycraft, the ban criteria concerns, the LGL rule specifics, all of that stuff — looking at the real picture of actual tournaments, is Meta Knight a real problem?

MK ban threads usually only come around the time of a national. CoT4, Genesis, SNES, Pound 4, etc, and there's usually not much commotion about the MK ban until then. When the thread comes up and we see tournament results, everybody goes frantic. Why? The results of nationals shouldn't be surprising; top players get top spots, a lot of top players main Meta Knight, Meta Knight gets a lot of top spots.

People like to throw around blanket statements of how much MK is destroying the community, how MK is overcentralizing the metagame, how MK is decreasing tournament attendance — I even heard that the game wouldn't last until 2010 (which is obviously false). However, what MK actually does to the community seems to be quite region specific. For example, I heard that New Mexico (from Dekar), GtaN (from Swordgard), and Puerto Rico (from Kewkky) have all had MK problems or overcentralization to the point where they had to ban the character. He would consistently be taking 6-7 out of the top 8, and people have stopped going to tournaments because of him in the regions. In that case, a ban is completely understandable.

What about everywhere else?

What about places like Atlantic North, where a lot of people main MK but a lot of people are fine with it, and a ban of MK would cut a large chunk of the playerbase? What about places like Eastern Midwest, where MK exists but isn't really dominating? In most places, sure MK has the top results since he's the best character in the game, but he's not a real problem. People have mentioned the slow decline of tournament attendance and have correlated it with the slow increase of MK's results. Honest question: Do you think a ban of MK will boost tournament attnedance in your region?

If you answered yes, stop and think for a bit. I said before in a parenthetical remark that a MK ban wouldn't bring any more new attendees, and except for special cases such as New Mexico, GtaN, and Puerto Rico, his ban wouldn't really bring much more tournament attendance. Certain regions have been having trouble with attendance recently, and more likely than not it isn't because of MK dominance that attendance is declining, but of tournaments themselves.

The MD/VA tournament scene was struggling a few months ago (not sure if it's the same now) mainly because of how tournaments were run. They usually had $10 venue fees, not great venues, top 3 payouts, and sometimes no pools. This is horrible for anybody who isn't around top 5-10 in the region, and it's especially horrible for the worse players. Imagine being new to the competitive scene (AKA probably not good), driving a good distance to go to a tournament, shelling out $30 for entry+gas+food, having the tournament go slowly because of the lack of set-ups, and when it's all said and done you only play two matches because of the lack of pools. That's not even worst case scenario — that happens in quite a lot of tournaments (I'm not taking a stab at MD/VA by the way, this is just in general). They're set up and run badly, and as a result the lower end of the player spectrum has a bad experience and no motivation to go to future tournaments. They don't see much hope of getting better, and it just isn't fun for them. This leads to tournament attendance decline. Things like losing to a planking Meta Knight may contribute a small bit to this, but it's hardly the main reason why attendance is lacking.

Now let's take a look at Ohio. Ohio's tournaments are amazingly well run, and as a result they have a huge and very competitive scene. If you have the time, I'd advise you to read this thread (it's the chat between AlphaZealot and Takeover, and AZ gives great advice on how to run a tournament. How his tournaments are run are pretty much how most of Ohio's tournaments are run).

Anyway, I've heard from pretty much all sources, from AIM, on SWF, and in person, that Ohio tournaments are just fun experiences. TOs and helpers such as AZ, Nope, Keist, and OS all do the suggested things for smooth and fun tournaments, so it caters really well to everyone. They have cheap entry fees, tournaments that run on time, pools, and tournaments in each region: Springfield, Cincinnati, Columbus, NEOH. The result is a large amount of good players all competing for the Ohio Power Rankings.

I don't know from experience, but I heard that SoCal was in a slump similar to MD/VA, but Champ with 2GoodGaming has stepped it up with tournaments and helped boost the scene there.

Overall, what I'm trying to say is that region's tournament success or tournament troubles doesn't seem to have anything to do with MK. All of those regions have their share of MK mains, good and bad. Their existence doesn't have an effect on the tournament scenes.

Those are my three viewpoints on those questions. I feel that MK's dominance is region specific and we can't put a broad blanket over how MK performs in the world. I feel that we can't know what will happen afterwards if a ban was instituted, and there's no evidence to suggest the ban will improve the community. I feel that MK isn't even a problem in the community right now, and while we can argue over specifics about him on SWF, he doesn't have actual impact on a region's tournament attendance — other factors do and we should be addressing those. Because of all this, I'm anti-ban.

I know for a fact I left something major out I wanted to say. I also lost focus towards the end of this and rambled on some points. This is much wordier than I hoped. Hopefully anyone who wants to say anything about my points won't nitpick at small things and will get the big picture of what I'm saying, but hopefully people aren't strictly arguing against my points anyway; it's exactly what we shouldn't be doing. We've been having redundant arguments over the MK ban since fall of 2008, and we haven't accomplished much or anything since then.

Just thought I'd repost this again since no one really responded to it.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Guys, Fox is just as dominant in melee and we don't ***** about it even though his worst match-up is arguably even.

I personally followed ankoku's method of ranking characters and found that fox has about 500 points over the 2nd most winning character. The 2nd and 3rd ranked characters are completely buffed by 1-2 people alone (mango happens to win the biggest tournaments in the world with falco and puff) and without those people fox has twice the points the 2nd best character has. The data is currently incomplete but the trends match what ankoku's list has shown for brawl.

tl;dr get over it.

edit: and i agree with the post above me. People are too quick to blame MK for all the problems the competitive scene is having.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Just thought I'd repost this again since no one really responded to it.

I did (to the best of my abilities).

 

[Exceladon City]

Melee Fox=/=MK

Just thought I'd make that known.

It's expected for an amazing character to win alot. It's different if it's becoming the same character filling up spots 1-10. With little to no variation. Because the guy who is already playing a character that beats about 28 other characters in the game, still can't get the job done because MK ruins him and every possible secondary outside of well...MK. But I'm sure this argument was made 650 pages ago.

What arguments can we throw out now? How about his costume colors? Red MK is SatanKnight.

 

[Crow!]

Hadn't seen that post before, AvaricePanda. I'll put it on my to-do list.

 

[etecoon]

Guys, Fox is just as dominant in melee and we don't ***** about it even though his worst match-up is arguably even.

I personally followed ankoku's method of ranking characters and found that fox has about 500 points over the 2nd most winning character. The 2nd and 3rd ranked characters are completely buffed by 1-2 people alone (mango happens to win the biggest tournaments in the world with falco and puff) and without those people fox has twice the points the 2nd best character has. The data is currently incomplete but the trends match what ankoku's list has shown for brawl.

tl;dr get over it.

you can't just say something like that without actually sharing the data, it would seem...suspicious

 

[Allied]

i just want to let you guys know everytime i come in here to check if theres some new discussion going on or maybe some new evidence or something slightly new

You guys just keep discussing the same thing then newer people come in here and ask the SAME question or give some SAME bias answer

And everyone continues to fill each other in

/props to overswarm for keeping up with this

i gave up after ADHD made a metaknight antiban thread then i was in the like the beginning 50 posts of this thread and then i stopped xD

continue with the same thing just wanted to add that in

 

[adumbrodeus]

you can't just say something like that without actually sharing the data, it would seem...suspicious

... Melee board character rankings... Seems like a good place to start.


Insider tip, he posted it in the melee tierlist discussion, along with the concentration data.

 

[etecoon]

... Melee board character rankings... Seems like a good place to start.

haven't visited the melee boards pretty much in like 3 years, didn't know they had such a thing. wouldn't have hurt him to link to it seeing as a lot of us are barwl ***s : p