Official Metaknight Discussion

[etecoon]

Typically, only outliers beat MK's. This means MK is beatable, but to an unreasonable degree. The only way most people get by MK is by using MK.

uh...no? only outliers of other characters beat outlier MK's maybe, but low-mid level MK's lose to other low-mid level players all the time too

 

[Cold Fusion]

uh...no? only outliers of other characters beat outlier MK's maybe, but low-mid level MK's lose to other low-mid level players all the time too

Well then maybe I should have said only outliers beat good Mks.

 

[solecalibur]

Then quote it or something. I'm not going back in this 576 page thread to look for one-liners.

Its been mentioned at least 30 times if you would have looked back 5 pages there isnt many people that read all of this

 

[fkacyan]

Well then maybe I should have said only outliers beat good Mks.

Are you saying that Ally and ADHD are entire skill levels of progression better than M2K?

This is not a road that you should tread on, fyi.

 

[ElDominio]

Are you saying that Ally and ADHD are entire skill levels of progression better than M2K?

This is not a road that you should tread on, fyi.

This thread needs an index... srsly...

 

[etecoon]

Are you saying that Ally and ADHD are entire skill levels of progression better than M2K?

This is not a road that you should tread on, fyi.

dunno if that's still the case but he himself has said things to the effect of "I'm only good at brawl because I was good at melee" and that he doesn't practice outside of tournaments anymore, and he clearly doesn't know the diddy matchup(again, pretty much his own admission). I wouldn't consider it absurd at all, at the very least right now I'd say ally and ADHD are 1 and 2.

Well then maybe I should have said only outliers beat good Mks.

only good players beat good players? SHOCKING

 

[salaboB]

Are you saying that Ally and ADHD are entire skill levels of progression better than M2K?

This is not a road that you should tread on, fyi.

They are playing characters that are close to even MU's against MK, and M2K has shown signs of being unwilling to play as cheap as he can. From what's been said, he's also splitting his time between Brawl and Melee -- which can't be helping.

They may simply be at equal/better skill level than him and be willing to take full advantage of their characters (And quite possibly are benefiting from matchup unfamiliarity against their playstyles. How many times did Ally beat him again? Has he done it recently? Or are you just bringing up an old example of a player that only caught him by surprise once or twice and then M2K adapted?) From what I've heard, M2K also handles nanners relatively poorly -- which would greatly impact ADHD's success against him.

only good players beat good players? SHOCKING

It's more, "There's only three players at that level that we're aware of" so comparisons of MUs outside that level of play based on what happens at it are shaky at best.

 

[Matador]

I gave you a TL;DR.

Thing is, you stop a match, which by default breaks the flow of the match.

Then it goes two ways
1) Judge declares planking, MK looses
2) No stalling, whoever called it out gets a nice DQ for pausing. If not, good (AFAIK you get a DQ for pausing... correct me if I'm wrong), Brawl matches will take longer, which is another thing TOs usually try to avoid.

...The MK is breaking the rules.

The same thing would happen if D3's infinite is banned and some D3 is infiniting some poor Samus to death.

God-forbid we enforce the rules at the expense of a few extra pauses...

Typically, only outliers beat MK's. This means MK is beatable, but to an unreasonable degree. The only way most people get by MK is by using MK.

Most people are not good at this game. That does not mean that the ones that ARE good should be overlooked and deemed outliers when it comes to game-defining rules like an MK ban.

Yes, it's not the norm for players to consistently beat MK, but it's reality. MK can be beaten by non-MK, and the majority of players need to improve in order to reach that level without maining MK.

The most frequently argued platform for this ban seems like it's blatantly catering to the frustrations of bad, lazy players who see that winning is possible, but would much rather complain about losing to MK than practice and become better.

What's worse, this game isn't overly difficult...it's rather straight-forward in fact. There are plenty of resources to improve at this game and many characters have even (or near-even) match-ups with MK. The best MK in the world isn't completely dominant. Why are we still trying to ban this character?

 

[etecoon]

ally beat M2K the last time they played and they go back and forth in general. other top snake's/MK's on a regional level like razer/dojo and fatal/shadow have also been shown to be relatively even

note that IMO MK does win the MU but this idea that only ally and ADHD can beat any meta knight that is any good is absurdly stupid

 

[salaboB]

Most people are not good at this game. That does not mean that the ones that ARE good should be overlooked and deemed outliers when it comes to game-defining rules like an MK ban.

Yes, it's not the norm for players to consistently beat MK, but it's reality. MK can be beaten by non-MK, and the majority of players need to improve in order to reach that level without maining MK.

When it's conclusively proven it's not M2K simply not playing MK at the same level as ADHD is playing Diddy, fine. But evidence is suggesting M2K is not adapting to what MK has the potential to do against Diddy, which means it's ADHD beating M2K not Diddy being that effective against MK.

ally beat M2K the last time they played and they go back and forth in general. other top snake's/MK's on a regional level like razer/dojo and fatal/shadow have also been shown to be relatively even

note that IMO MK does win the MU but this idea that only ally and ADHD can beat any meta knight that is any good is absurdly stupid

Fair enough, but it's no big surprise since it's generally accepted that Snake vs. MK is 45:55 or so. It would be more surprising if players on the same skill level didn't go about even.

The problem is, they have a better chance of getting taken out by other players who aren't as good -- because of bad MUs. The MK player doesn't get that, they just get to pit their playing ability + advantage against everyone.

 

[etecoon]

snake doesn't have bad matchups. he has a few other disadvantaged matchups but DDD is the only one that is notably harder than MK. I don't really feel like diddy has bad matchups either but he's partly a gimmick character, his MU's are artificially inflated because his opponent never has comparable experience dealing with bananas

 

[salaboB]

snake doesn't have bad matchups. he has a few other disadvantaged matchups but DDD is the only one that is notably harder than MK. I don't really feel like diddy has bad matchups either but he's partly a gimmick character, his MU's are artificially inflated because his opponent never has comparable experience dealing with bananas

Snake has some bad stages though, so if someone can nail the neutral round they're assured a good CP chance to try to disadvantage him.

 

[Matador]

When it's conclusively proven it's not M2K simply not playing MK at the same level as ADHD is playing Diddy, fine. But evidence is suggesting M2K is not adapting to what MK has the potential to do against Diddy, which means it's ADHD beating M2K not Diddy being that effective against MK.

So M2K is the only MK that ADHD plays at ALL of the tourneys he goes to? None of the other DROVES of MKs (who's severely overused going by pro-ban's arguments) he faces uses him to his fullest potential? There's some TheoryMK that's unbeatable and THAT'S who we're trying to ban?

Theory is ********. Don't use it against me.

 

[etecoon]

ya, same with IC's, falco, or diddy. they do pretty well vs MK on neutrals but are at a definite disadvantage when being counterpicked, falco in regions where japes is allowed is really the only one that gets a legitimate CP on MK that is comparable to what he gets(brinstar/RC or whatever) since MK has to pick between that or FD, anyone else he can just ban the worst stage and it won't get much worse if any worse than a neutral

 

[Xyro77]

The only problem with what Xyro is doing, Thio, is that there's not really ever enough Meta Knights IN the tournament, because Texas only ever really has like, two or three.

And only one of them is a pure Meta Knight main anyway.

Can't really do much about gathering data if you don't have the Meta Knights you need in attendance (DPhat plays MK and didn't attend HOBO, and Dojo didn't attend as well).

You dont understand.

Its not about who MAINS meta or who 2nds meta. Its about the morons who lose with thier main and switch to meta. There are at least 7 of those in tx. My new rules have made metas more "fair" or kept them from coming to my events......either way i win.

 

[salaboB]

So M2K is the only MK that ADHD plays at ALL of the tourneys he goes to? None of the other DROVES of MKs (who's severely overused going by pro-ban's arguments) he faces uses him to his fullest potential? There's some theoryMK that's unbeatable and THAT'S who we're trying to ban?

Theory is ********. Don't use it against me.

I'd say ADHD is better than the rest. If you paid attention to what I'd said previously, I think that Ally, M2K, and ADHD are pretty much on a skill level above everyone else (At least as far as is known at this point.) So ADHD just outplays the other MK's, and M2K does reasonably well against him simply because he's so good -- but that doesn't mean he's playing well against Diddy.

Nobody said MK was unbeatable, learn to read before you try to debate please.

 

[Asdioh]

MLG might instate LGLs and scrooging rules. According to pro-ban, MK is only OP without these rules, so if these are in place, I'm thinking Brawl would still be cool enough to keep for another season.

when has that ever been pro-ban's case?

The only sane path in the face of a broken game is to play a different one. Banning is never the answer. Subjectivity is the enemy of fair competition.

Well, it looks like we should all play different games. We've already banned items, stages, etc. but more importantly we've banned things like IDC, and we are clearly in need of banning Metaknight's planking (though doing that is pretty much impossible, which is why banning the character is so much easier)

:[

 

[Jack Kieser]

Well, it looks like we should all play different games. We've already banned items, stages, etc. but more importantly we've banned things like IDC, and we are clearly in need of banning Metaknight's planking (though doing that is pretty much impossible, which is why banning the character is so much easier)

:[

This is part of why I only take Sirlin with a grain of salt / think he's a pretentious ****.

 

[salaboB]

This is part of why I only take Sirlin with a grain of salt / think he's a pretentious ****.

Akuma says hi to Sirlin.

Mostly, the guy is just taken out of context.

 

[KevinM]

The doubles results are not there to say "OMG im going proban"

I just want you to look at all those nationals/regionals and think about the results.

Xyro not to call you out or anything but name a melee team that didn't have a fox on their team that won a tournament or made in the top 16 like ever.

(Husband and Wife...)

That's about it literally, there have been rare occasions such as Darc and Scar but for the most part you need a fox on your team or you lose.

 

[Matador]

No, I'd say ADHD is better than the rest.

Nobody said MK was unbeatable, learn to read before you try to debate please.

YOU said that, in a nutshell, M2K is not properly playing the match-up. If he were playing it correctly, then ADHD, who's an outlier and far beyond any other Diddy, would not win vs M2K.

That would make him virtually unbeatable to any other Diddy besides ADHD who still wouldn't be winning nearly as frequently as now.

Therefore, since the best MK in the world isn't playing the match-up correctly and MK is still being debated as overcentralizing the game and unbeatable by anything but outliers...WHO exactly is using MK in the way that's being described? M2K obviously isn't.

Who's doing this planking? Who's playing the way that MK SHOULD be played and, consequently, should be banned for?

Before you see me use the word "unbeatable" and boygasm (DA K.I.D. copyright) all over the place because you've found an unrelated "hole" in my argument, actually read my post and see the point I'm making.

 

[ShadowLink84]

I AM FAST ON THE REFRESH. I'd rather not go into why. It's more embarassing than anything else. >_>

I have a feeling you made a video and hit F5 really often.

Not really true. Rewording it makes it easier to examine, and in some cases it's not even possible to examine something without rewording it. The most common example I can think of in this case is the way you use trigonometric identities to make sense of complicated functions in calculus without actually changing the equation itself.

That is a TERRIBLEE example because in th e case of calculus, in many points you are unable to solve the actual equation without the conversions.

In this case, it does not sound comparable.
Math=/=English.

Yes I did that on purpose just to annoy you.

I said I was an idiot for talking about something that is vastly unpopular.quote]
That the populace that quit is whiny

For reference, my original post on the issue:

I shall translate then.

"They are whiny scrubs, but if I am wrong, i'll just act as if I didn't intend such a thing and have a nice little bit of insurance."

I have, since the beginning, stated that there is a possibility that quitting over MK is perfectly legit.

If you truly belieed tis ten you would not have needed the aforementioned comment would you?

I didn't say one could adequately determine who should have input. One can far more easily identify a subset of the people who should not, however.

It is very easy to pick out those who act to the extreme, it is not ane xtreme to quit the game when it seems you cannot overcome a matchup that is also not only a difficult one, but the most popular as well.

In tournament, people whip out Mk against my Sonic when they main Falco.
It's a bit...iffy you know?

Fair enough. As said above, however, if the 9000 I exclude in said experiment admit that they would give up if the 'x' factor was in play, which we guaranteed would be, they would not be useful for the purposes of the experiment. This is what I'm trying to get at here, at least with that point.

The same could be said for the 1000.
M2K and several others are willing to quit if MK is banned.
Is that not the same as whatt he PR community did? Quitting over one character?

I worded that poorly. The debate, which is whether or not we should listen to the community's population, is valid. A sub-debate within that, which is what samples of the population should be listened to in order to make such a decision, is valid by definition of being contained within the first one.

Except now you would need a criteria, one that isn't inherently arbitrary.

I saw something on 571 that made me giggle btw.

-MK is killing the smash community (example: PR).

The only part of the Smash community that is dying from Meta Knight is the chunk of the community that posts in this thread.

X_X

 

[salaboB]

YOU said that, in a nutshell, M2K is not properly playing the match-up. If he were playing it correctly, then ADHD, who's an outlier and far beyond any other Diddy, would not win vs M2K.

That would make him virtually unbeatable to any other Diddy besides ADHD who still wouldn't be winning nearly as frequently as now.

First: Do any other Diddy's beat M2K? If not, then it would seem he is virtually unbeatable to any other Diddy than ADHD already.

Second: There's more to beating Diddy than just playing well against his specific tricks. Other people have worked out tactics that MK has to deal with nanners, and can point out when M2K isn't utilizing them. It's basically like shifting the MU to 55:45 Diddy when it should be 55:45 MK (Or more, I don't know where it would fall) but that doesn't mean it's unwinnable for M2K or would be utterly unwinnable for ADHD -- it's just easier for Diddy than it would be if M2K used all the discovered ways to shut him down.

 

[ADHD]

Nobody use shadow beating me this weekend as an excuse for banning the char, seriously lol. He's beaten me many times before this. I know this is random, but people are definitely getting at this, and I'm sorry I gave some dog food to them.

 

[Vyse]

1. Diddy deserves a little more credit than being a gimmick character
2. About Puerto Rico:

I just wanted to post this. ^^

Oh and also, I wanted to point out that NOT every Puerto Rican player that went to Pound and quit Brawl quitted because of MK. I personally quit Brawl because I don't like the defensive way the game has, and I prefer Melee. Stop saying PR is not playing Brawl because of MK because that is not entirely true (to whoever said it first).

 

[etecoon]

oh, I don't mean to say that diddy's success is entirely unwarranted. he is a very good character that has many safe options in most situations, I think he's better than snake tbh. I think that he does benefit from inexperience and unwillingness to adapt to items though

 

[Kewkky]

1. Diddy deserves a little more credit than being a gimmick character
2. About Puerto Rico:

Thank you, Vyse.

I trully have no idea who got the random idea that MK killed PR's smash community. Whenever I talk about our communityafter Pound4, I always say that "it's taking a break after all the money we spent, we can't afford to go to tourneys for a while so we're minding our own business until further notice".

 

[ShadowLink84]

Nobody use shadow beating me this weekend as an excuse for banning the char, seriously lol. He's beaten me many times before this. I know this is random, but people are definitely getting at this, and I'm sorry I gave some dog food to them.

The first and second sentence make me go ????
The last part in regards to dog food makes me go WTF ARE YOU HIGH!?

 

[etecoon]

it's funny because that probably is going to get discussed MORE now, why you paranoid lol

 

[Karcist]

Nobody use shadow beating me this weekend as an excuse for banning the char, seriously lol. He's beaten me many times before this. I know this is random, but people are definitely getting at this, and I'm sorry I gave some dog food to them.

How does "he's beaten me many times before this" negate the ability to use that in an argument?

 

[fkacyan]

Yes I did that on purpose just to annoy you.

Man, you made me sadface irl.

it's funny because that probably is going to get discussed MORE now, why you paranoid lol

I'd imagine it's because he doesn't mind the MK matchup and banning MK would force him to play his actual counters more and this pick up a secondary or something.

 

[Vyse]

I think ADHD is trying to say it's more of a player vs player thing more than it's a Character vs Character thing.

 

[salaboB]

I think ADHD is trying to say it's more of a player vs player thing more than it's a Character vs Character thing.

Wouldn't that mean his victories against M2K don't show anything about MK, then?

 

[Matador]

First: Do any other Diddy's beat M2K? If not, then it would seem he is virtually unbeatable to any other Diddy than ADHD already.

Perhaps...he obviously knows the match-up to some extent if he only loses to ADHD...enough to beat most of the Diddys he faces.

Second: There's more to beating Diddy than just playing well against his specific tricks. Other people have worked out tactics that MK has to deal with nanners, and can point out when M2K isn't utilizing them. It's basically like shifting the MU to 55:45 Diddy when it should be 55:45 MK (Or more, I don't know where it would fall) but that doesn't mean it's unwinnable for M2K or would be utterly unwinnable for ADHD -- it's just easier for Diddy than it would be if M2K used all the discovered ways to shut him down.

When the time comes that an MK comes around who is the embodiment of every pro-ban argument (utilizes perfect planking, knows the Snake/Diddy match-up to the 'T', plays totally willing to do whatever it takes to win) then I don't see a reason to bring up this theoretical MK that can beat everyone.

Why are we banning what does not yet exist?

 

[Karcist]

I think ADHD is trying to say it's more of a player vs player thing more than it's a Character vs Character thing.

Which goes to show that he believes his and Ally's wins over MK are trivial anecdotal evidence, whether he'll admit it now or not.

 

[hotgarbage]

I think he's trying to say that one MK has finally learned the matchup and that MK in reality ***** Diddy and should be banned.
*eats dog food*

 

[Asdioh]

Nobody use shadow beating me this weekend as an excuse for banning the char, seriously lol. He's beaten me many times before this. I know this is random, but people are definitely getting at this, and I'm sorry I gave some dog food to them.

 

[Vyse]

I think we should all wait for ADHD to explain what he meant >.>

EDIT:
1. Asdioh, don't do that
2. I Lol'd

 

[Dark 3nergy]

its ok im having a hard time understanding what he said and asdioh pretty much put my thoughts into pictures



yo asdioh re edit that and put a epic picture of obama in it

 

[ShadowLink84]

Man, you made me sadface irl.

XD I do it alot.

I'd imagine it's because he doesn't mind the MK matchup and banning MK would force him to play his actual counters more and this pick up a secondary or something.

O.O