Official Metaknight Discussion

[ElDominio]

Why is that an auto-bad thing? Why does that equate to broken? A really good character has few bad match-ups, correct?

So why is it so negative that the unanimously decided and rarely contested BEST CHARACTER IN THE GAME has no bad match-ups?

Because it forces people to learn MK to get an EVEN matchup. I don't want to play MK ever. Yet I am forced to because it is the only way out against one....

 

[UltiMario]

EVERYONE is forced to learn Match-ups, and many people have a "personal bad-match up" or a match-up they dislike doing. Simply not wanted to fight MKs means nothing, Domino.

 

[Excel_Zero]

Originally Posted by a wise man
Making a game 'more fun' or 'more better' or 'more attractive to play' is NOT and NEVER will be the goal of competition. These things are not our job or place as competitive gamers. Our only job is to win and or try to be the best, and walk the path of self improvement.

The only sane path in the face of a broken game is to play a different one. Banning is never the answer. Subjectivity is the enemy of fair competition.

I just wanted to post this. ^^

Oh and also, I wanted to point out that NOT every Puerto Rican player that went to Pound and quit Brawl quitted because of MK. I personally quit Brawl because I don't like the defensive way the game has, and I prefer Melee. Stop saying PR is not playing Brawl because of MK because that is not entirely true (to whoever said it first).

 

[Code Lyon]

Who said anything about PR? >.>

 

[fkacyan]

1. MK is in his own tier

2. Why are people-scratch that- MAJORITY of the community upset toward MK?

I'm going to fix two things for you:

1) The tier list the SBR makes is the best interpretation of the absolute tier list that is 'present'* in the game when it is released, based on the current metagame. There is a possibility that is is wrong. Small, but possible.

2) A majority of the polled community. Self-selection bias is one of the reasons that it's hard for me to take it seriously.

I would like to say this to the people left in the strict anti-ban camp:

Many of pro-ban's arguments are valid. However, only one points to any type of conclusion, and that is that planking is unbeatable. If we manage to limit that without damaging the game's integrity, we are left with their position and what backs it up, which is roughly as follows:

"We believe that MK should be banned because we feel that his dominance is the direct cause of the slow decay of tourney attendance, and believe that removing him would solve this and would also make for a more diverse viable roster, as supported by our data."

There are several ways to counter this position. You can do as you are doing, which is hope that some data gathered with MK will somehow change their minds (it won't), or you can advocate a temp ban in the hopes that the data gathered from such a ban would prove pro ban wrong, as I am. It's the best option. In the event that he is banworthy, you've probably learned a new main and have had it proven to you that the game is better without him. In the event he isn't, you have probably learned a new character who you will now have an easier time beating and can dismiss people who continue to complain about MK as whiners.

I fail to see where either side loses in a temp ban. Of course, planking data and MLG notwithstanding.

EDIT: Nobody has drawn a conclusion about PR as a whole. I just said that if a region quits because of MK and we have by some procedure determined he is OK, that region is a region of scrubs, because they are giving up due to a perceived imbalance that is a result of some bizarer personal ruleset that says they cannot beat MK, but using him or a character that does better would be cheap, etc.

 

[Jack Kieser]

I just wanted to post this. ^^ [Referring to some Sirlin quote]

Try not to speak in absolutes, because it tends to make you look like an idiot for insinuating you know everything about everything.

10absolutesarebad

 

[UltiMario]

In response to Excel....

Everyone cool is going to quit Brawl for Project: M when it comes out, BTW.

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

I just wanted to post this. ^^

Oh and also, I wanted to point out that NOT every Puerto Rican player that went to Pound and quit Brawl quitted because of MK. I personally quit Brawl because I don't like the defensive way the game has, and I prefer Melee. Stop saying PR is not playing Brawl because of MK because that is not entirely true (to whoever said it first).

Then I guess we will no longer enhance the metagame to make the game possibly better.

You dummies put so much emphasis on competition that your attention toward the diversify of the community becomes obsolete

 

[Matador]

Because we have rules in place to limit him. Ledge grab limits are, quite clearly, a rule that only MK really needs. You can beat planking pits and G&Ws. It has been, however, proven with frame data that in perfect play AND in normal play (where the gap only widens), MK's planking is unbeatable. The only thing you can do against it is to grab the ledge against him by PSing an uair and SDIing in shield really well. That's ALL.

He's broken because of a tactic that's currently being limited and that the best (and even mediocre) MKs aren't using? He's broken because, if done perfectly (meaning that plenty of MKs who use this tactic don't use it correctly) there's only one way to beat his planking?

Really?

Only one?

I don't mean to grasp at straws here, but doesn't that still make it a beatable tactic? Furthermore, doesn't the fact that the best MKs refrain from using this tactic mean that it's not as big an issue as it's being made out to be?

Think about it, plenty of characters need things banned to remain legal. Granted, these are surgical bans which we're all now conditioned to despise, but walk-off stages are banned because of D3 (amongst few other things). ICs freeze glitch in Melee was banned for them to remain legal. Stalling was banned in order for stall-capable character to remain legal.

How is planking any different, especially since there are rules in place to limit it?

Overcentralizing. Over being the keyword. I'll admit, this is subjective.

What decides the limit between overcentralizing and simply playing the role as the best character?

How many people have quit because of MK.

Why are we catering to players who don't want to deal with a character that's widely accepted as beatable? There are plenty of respectable competitive games that have obstacles comparable to MK that are the cause of some players quitting...why tailor the rules to their needs?

They bring money, sure. They bring some form of competition. However, there's an inherent issue with the idea of sacrificing competition for the sake of larger pots and less *****ing.

Read DMG's thread. It is literally unbeatable, when done right, by EVERYONE.

EDIT: Also, Marth has counters. Take from that what you will.

If it's unbeatable, then it's unbeatable. Your first quote says different though, and it's obviously not being practiced as much as it should in real tourney play because not every MK is using it. Also, there are ledge limits...why is planking still an issue with ledge limits?

Marth has a few counters just like MK has a few characters that can viably contend against him in tournament play. They both limit the same way.

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

In response to Excel....

Everyone cool is going to quit Brawl for Project: M when it comes out, BTW.

That scrub project? Who cares?

People who divide the community and are crybabies toward original games.

 

[Turbo Ether]

In response to Excel....

Everyone cool is going to quit Brawl for Project: M when it comes out, BTW.

Nope. MLG will keep people interested in vBrawl.

 

[ElDominio]

EVERYONE is forced to learn Match-ups, and many people have a "personal bad-match up" or a match-up they dislike doing. Simply not wanted to fight MKs means nothing, Domino.

Erm, I said, I learned MK to know how to play one, with MK himself.
Moar lern2reeds...

I just wanted to post this. ^^

Oh and also, I wanted to point out that NOT every Puerto Rican player that went to Pound and quit Brawl quitted because of MK. I personally quit Brawl because I don't like the defensive way the game has, and I prefer Melee. Stop saying PR is not playing Brawl because of MK because that is not entirely true (to whoever said it first).

Twas me, lol. I said most, because I knew there were some other reasons. But, I ask, did MK have anything to do? At all?

 

[Matador]

Because it forces people to learn MK to get an EVEN matchup. I don't want to play MK ever. Yet I am forced to because it is the only way out against one....

There are plenty of good players out there who beat GOOD MKs without using MK. Some of them use low tiers...some use the worst characters in the game. You don't NEED an even match-up to beat MK. You're not FORCED to do anything.

Well...besides being forced to get better at the game. It's like this for any competitive fighting game, ever. The best character in the game is the best for a reason...they are better than every other character in the game. There are inherent advantages to using the best character in the game. If you don't want to use them and still want victory and success in competitive gaming, then you've signed a contract stating:

"I hereby agree to the fact that I'm willingly putting myself at a disadvantage by using a character inferior to the best character in the game, and that every opponent I face will likely be at an advantage against me. I have no right to complain about this, because I have the same opportunity to choose the best character that my opponents do, I just refuse to seize said opportunity."

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

None of those rules were in effect at the tourney I went to. Its not that I think MK goes even, but I can't say "oh gee he's too good". If I can make him broken I'll go pro-ban but till then not so much.

so there was no LGL? if you didn't plank then you had the chance to make him broken and didn't take it

 

[WindMajor]

Erm, I said, I learned MK to know how to play one, with MK himself.
Moar lern2reeds...



Twas me, lol. I said most, because I knew there were some other reasons. But, I ask, did MK have anything to do? At all?

He's trying to say that not all of PR quit Brawl, not all of the PR Pound4 guys quit, and of the fraction that DID quit, not all 100% of them quit because of MK.

However, the forums closed down because threads kept being derailed from the original topic, to Melee vs. Brawl, to Brawl vs. MK. A lot of people have quit, but there are still a couple of dedicated players that will continue to play Brawl.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Wayyyy late here, but this has been on my mind as of recent, and I'd like to discuss this with you. (if you'd humor me; it's probably already been touched somewhere in this beast <____>)

At what point exactly do you consider a character to be "negated"?

Check my blog.

But 75%+1 of the otherwise viable characters are negated by this character.

Wrong. Ican Ooze is godlike. I've never played that game before, and I bet you $100 that I could beat the best non Ivan-Ooze-player of that game with no trouble at all. Trying to Compare Ivan Ooze, and even Akuma to Meta Knight, is possibly one of the most ******** things the pro-ban could do, because it IS possible to beat a any given Meta Knight, it is NOT possible to beat Ivan Ooze. Pro-bans even admitted for who knows how long now that MK was not broken, and would never ban MK based on his broken and unbeatableness. You certainly can't ban him this way now without breaking your own words and logic. You guys set that in STONE day

WRONG, they were wrong and you are wrong.


The situation changed, given frame perfect planking, mk is only vulnerable for 6 frames, but the problem is he gets to do 2 invincible (one entirely, one till halfway through), and I have yet to find anything that can get through that reliably.


Period.

 

[fkacyan]

The situation changed, given frame perfect planking, mk is only vulnerable for 6 frames, but the problem is he gets to do 2 invincible (one entirely, one till halfway through), and I have yet to find anything that can get through that reliably.

Oh, that's an easy one - A lingering hitbox projectile fired from below the stage.

It's just that MK would be gimping you and not planking if you were over there. :|

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

There are plenty of good players out there who beat GOOD MKs without using MK. Some of them use low tiers...some use the worst characters in the game. You don't NEED an even match-up to beat MK. You're not FORCED to do anything.

Well...besides being forced to get better at the game. It's like this for any competitive fighting game, ever. The best character in the game is the best for a reason...they are better than every other character in the game. There are inherent advantages to using the best character in the game. If you don't want to use them and still want victory and success in competitive gaming, then you've signed a contract stating:

"I hereby agree to the fact that I'm willingly putting myself at a disadvantage by using a character inferior to the best character in the game, and that every opponent I face will likely be at an advantage against me. I have no right to complain about this, because I have the same opportunity to choose the best character that my opponents do, I just refuse to seize said opportunity."

Potential outliers like FOW don't count.

 

[bigbucks]

Potential outliers like FOW don't count.

Then who counts? the scrubby players ?

 

[Code Lyon]

Then who counts? the scrubby players ?

Yes you count. Lol Jk

Forreal though we've answered this too many times. MK effects everyone on all levels. HENCE THAT'S THE COMMUNITY. If you remember anything from math outliers mess up set of data which makes them invalid son.

 

[Matador]

Potential outliers like FOW don't count.

Yes you count. Lol Jk

Forreal though we've answered this too many times. MK effects everyone on all levels. HENCE THAT'S THE COMMUNITY. If you remember anything from math outliers mess up set of data which makes them invalid son.

How do they not count? Simply because the majority of players aren't good, we label the the good players "outliers" and they no longer count? That is utterly ridiculous.

There are PLENTY of players that beat MKs...those MKs don't have to be Tyrant or M2K (who're also far from undefeated)...but there are good players beating good MKs with characters that aren't MK...mediocre players beating mediocre MKs...why is this being ignored? The only thing I'm hearing that he's dominating...

Like the best character in the game is magically supposed to be doing something other than exactly that...

 

[Code Lyon]

Augh bad comparisions are bad comparisions but.... Fox is best character in Melee, he doesn't dominate like MK does.

 

[Matador]

Augh bad comparisions are bad comparisions but.... Fox is best character in Melee, he doesn't dominate like MK does.

Do you know why Fox is the best character in Melee?

 

[Code Lyon]

Something about in frame/theory he is the best? augh this is where i get burned >.>

 

[etecoon]

fox NEVER dominated results in melee period, he is "the best" only by theorycraft, the same as people who claim that diddy/snake/falco/ice climbers are actually better than MK.

 

[Code Lyon]

I Guessed Right!

 

[Matador]

Something about in frame/theory he is the best? augh this is where i get burned >.>

That's right. No doubt he's, in practice, one of the best characters...but the reason he's on the top of the tier list is because of a frame-perfect theory "if played like this!" kinda thing...not because he dominates.

That said, Melee has a much better balance than Brawl does when it comes to tiers...but it's not MK's fault, no matter how much you might want to believe it.

 

[Code Lyon]

I still support a tem ban to see how the characters would evolve.

 

[Matador]

What would a temporary ban do?

 

[etecoon]

a temp ban, assuming that TO's followed it, would give solid data on what an MKless metagame might look like. just information, it wouldn't cause "characters to evolve", that idea is silly IMO

 

[Code Lyon]

Has been explained before....

 

[Nanaki]

The issue is, if pro-ban is correct, then MK is going to gay up the MLG pro circuit so ****ing hard, you'll need a crowbar to remove the **** (SSBB) from its ***. Shame they run CS (they run CS, right?) which is part of the orange box. :V

If we're right, and MK makes it to MLG, then Brawl will NEVER return to MLG. And that might be the shock that kills it for good.

Just wanted to point out, MLG is not running CS this year.

I would respond to Matador, but I've responded to the planking argument several times now and I'm, quite honestly, sick of it.

Here's the quick n dirty version:

-It wasn't known until recently precisely how broken MK's planking is on a frame-by-frame basis. His planking is, when performed correctly, unbeatable without a substantial mistake by the MK. You also have 10 frames to buffer the most difficult portion, so it's not as though it's anywhere near impossible to perform correctly. All he needs is the lead and he wins.

-LGL's potentially limit things that aren't truly broken (MK's ledge game that's not involving his perfect planking and/or GW/Pit planking) and are anti-competitive (e.g. 'It's just a good tactic, but not unbeatable! Why are you banning it?).

-I (and others) are trying to form other rules to stop planking, but so far we're pretty unsuccessful. It's not easy to separate 'broken' planking from the 'non-broken' variety.

-As the stakes get raised (MLG), people will play however they have to in order to win, even if they have to sit on the edge for 8 minutes each round throughout an entire tournament.

I'm not going to respond to your response until later, as I have a wicked migraine and am going to nap now. Feel free, though.

 

[Matador]

Has been explained before....

Forgive me for not sifting through 576 pages of almost entirely bull****...I quite honestly don't have time like that to waste.

I'd like to see what BB's metagame would look like without Rachel...

Or SF4's without Sagat...

or 3S without Yun/Chun...

Still not sure exactly what it'd do though. If it's to see if removing that character will somehow jenga this game into becoming somewhat balanced...I wouldn't hold my breath. There's many more problems with this game than simply MK.

 

[adumbrodeus]

How do they not count? Simply because the majority of players aren't good, we label the the good players "outliers" and they no longer count? That is utterly ridiculous.

What that means is that they don't follow the general statistical trend of the character's progression by a massive margin.


Statistically speaking, those results are attributed to either sampling error or a heavy tailed distribution (in the latter case this indicates high kurtosis, in laymen's terms, they indicate that the population has infrequent massive deviations... hmmm, sounds like a situation you know?).


This means that they cannot be considered reflective of the population as a whole. Like it or not, mathematically speaking, Ally and ADHD are outliers in terms of their character.

 

[Matador]

What that means is that they don't follow the general statistical trend of the character's progression by a massive margin.


Statistically speaking, those results are attributed to either sampling error or a heavy tailed distribution (in the latter case this indicates high kurtosis, in laymen's terms, they indicate that the population has infrequent massive deviations... hmmm, sounds like a situation you know?).


This means that they cannot be considered reflective of the population as a whole. Like it or not, mathematically speaking, Ally and ADHD are outliers in terms of their character.

I know what it means. I'm just saying that it's a ridiculous idea...they aren't test scores or experiment data...

Ally and ADHD (and many many many others) represent a theoretically unlikely event (MK being beaten consistently at high level play) turning into a frequent event...the difference between this and outliers, as the community puts it, is that everyone KNOWS in a test with outliers that those heights are reachable...however, if ADHD/Ally hadn't beaten M2K, if FOW hadn't beaten Tyrant, if Reflex/_X_ hadn't been placing high, then we'd no doubt consider it nearly impossible to beat high level MKs with those characters.

The problem with the whole outlier idea is that, if I were to miraculously beat M2K tomorrow in tourney with Mario, I would be labeled a statistical outlier and put aside, rather than further proof that, at high level play, MK can be beaten.

Isn't M2K himself a statistical outlier? The only thing that keeps him out of that category is that he plays MK, correct?

I would respond to Matador, but I've responded to the planking argument several times now and I'm, quite honestly, sick of it.

It's a long thread...if I could go back and quote you, I would...I know how annoying it is to repeat yourself.

-It wasn't known until recently precisely how broken MK's planking is on a frame-by-frame basis. His planking is, when performed correctly, unbeatable without a substantial mistake by the MK. You also have 10 frames to buffer the most difficult portion, so it's not as though it's anywhere near impossible to perform correctly. All he needs is the lead and he wins.

-LGL's potentially limit things that aren't truly broken (MK's ledge game that's not involving his perfect planking and/or GW/Pit planking) and are anti-competitive (e.g. 'It's just a good tactic, but not unbeatable! Why are you banning it?).

LGLs are anti-competitive? How so? They don't seem any more anti-competitive than stalling rules.

-I (and others) are trying to form other rules to stop planking, but so far we're pretty unsuccessful. It's not easy to separate 'broken' planking from the 'non-broken' variety.

So banning the entire character is the alternative? What's wrong with banning planking and getting officials over to observe matches if there's planking?

There have to be solutions other than banning a perfectly fine character aside from that.

-As the stakes get raised (MLG), people will play however they have to in order to win, even if they have to sit on the edge for 8 minutes each round throughout an entire tournament.

How is that any different from Falco laser -> phantasm or Snake's ridiculous nade camping...

That's my problem with Brawl on MLG in general though...I DO see your point and something needs to be done. If it's because of planking, then I can sort of see how this conclusion could come up, but the issue is NOT MK limiting characters or overcentralizing or anything of that nature...he's not a temporary ban-fixable problem...planking aside, he's just the game's best character...nothing more.

 

[ElDominio]

The problem with more rules is the automatic added expenses in hosting a tournament and the extra manpower that will make hosting tournaments more expensive and tedious to host.

I already discussed this...

 

[etecoon]

How is that any different from Falco laser -> phantasm or Snake's ridiculous nade camping...

snake's nade camping is more entertaining to watch. it's sad but this is really what the "MLG will kick us out for being too boring if we don't ban MK!" argument comes down to.

 

[Matador]

The problem with more rules is the automatic added expenses in hosting a tournament and the extra manpower that will make hosting tournaments more expensive and tedious to host.

So...ban MK because it's "easier"?

Besides, what extra man-power would be needed? You stop the match, request a TO over, and they catch a potential breach in ruleset. What good are ANY of the rules if none of them are enforced?

I already discussed this...

Then quote it or something. I'm not going back in this 576 page thread to look for one-liners.

 

[ElDominio]

So...ban MK because it's "easier"?

Besides, what extra man-power would be needed? You stop the match, request a TO over, and they catch a potential breach in ruleset. What good are ANY of the rules if none of them are enforced?

Then quote it or something. I'm not going back in this 576 page thread to look for one-liners.

I gave you a TL;DR.

Thing is, you stop a match, which by default breaks the flow of the match.

Then it goes two ways
1) Judge declares planking, MK looses
2) No stalling, whoever called it out gets a nice DQ for pausing. If not, good (AFAIK you get a DQ for pausing... correct me if I'm wrong), Brawl matches will take longer, which is another thing TOs usually try to avoid.

 

[Cold Fusion]

Typically, only outliers beat MK's. This means MK is beatable, but to an unreasonable degree. The only way most people get by MK is by using MK.