Official Metaknight Discussion

[OverLade]

The last 2 pages are like a combo video of Pro ban layin down ****.

 

[Orion*]

so in a subjective question will they (SBR) unban planking if they unban mk? O.o

i actually... think i may go pro ban for the sole reason of financial profit

 

[ph00tbag]

For the record, anyone complaining about planking in Brawl really should go back and play some Melee. It happened frequently in that game, and could be just as bad for some characters. Fighting a Sheik on the ledge was just way too risky for a Falco, so Sheik was free to ledgestall as long as she wanted.

Ledgestalling is part of Smash. MK just happens to be really good at it.

 

[Humpy Thrashabout]

Does anyone know what the "official" Street Fighter community website is? I'm just kind of curious about some of this SF stuff.

 

[ShadowLink84]

THANK YOU! I WAS UNSURE WHO HERE ACTUALLY WAS AWARE OF THE FACT THAT AKUMA DIDN'T WIN EVERY NATIONAL OR LARGE REGIONAL!

Lol. Oh man. I think we must join forces and fight criminal scum.

Like Soap Scum, but the kind that is hard to remove.

Its impossible to remove.
They are like the weird fungus you see in a shanty looking home.
Its there, watching, waiting, and you may beat it back, turn it into nothingness, but it will return.

Edit: Why is Falco even with MK? I thought it was established that MK rams his sword up the fowl's rear in that matchup.

 

[DMG]

For the record, anyone complaining about planking in Brawl really should go back and play some Melee. It happened frequently in that game, and could be just as bad for some characters. Fighting a Sheik on the ledge was just way too risky for a Falco, so Sheik was free to ledgestall as long as she wanted.

Ledgestalling is part of Smash. MK just happens to be really good at it.

You could edge hog Shiek when she did it though. Her UpB has a lot of commitment to it. While she stayed invincible throughout it all, she had to commit more on whether she would Upb to the stage, stay on the edge and wait, use an aerial on someone approaching, etc. She couldn't use an aerial, drop down, use another aerial, jump up, use another aerial, then Upb to the edge. MK is kind of like that.

MK's ledge camping is harder to stop framewise when it comes to trying to take the edge away from him or preventing him from getting the edge. You could prevent Shiek from getting the edge if you played your cards smartly, usually by taking it yourself. In Brawl, taking the edge against MK is usually a very bad thing for your character to be under/side of MK, and kinda offstage.

Oh but Shadowlink, he can kinda go even if he can't plank! I do not Jest, Fierce one!

 

[theunabletable]

Not every Akuma won tournaments.
**** happens. We are human. *shrugs*
Just putting it out there before people start playing with extremes.

Who was the best Akuma in the world?

But, yeah, you're right. Just because M2K loses with MK doesn't mean that MK isn't broken. It's still worth considering that he may not be broken when the best MK in the world doesn't even win big tournies.

Edit: Why is Falco even with MK? I thought it was established that MK rams his sword up the fowl's rear in that matchup.

He isn't even without a ledge grab limit. But with a ledge grab limit it's even, according to Larry.

I mean he 'could' be wrong, but it's really hard to argue with the Falco who always takes M2K to last stock, last game, high percentage about the MK matchup lol...

But, yeah, without a ledge grab limit it's definitely MK favor.

And DMG, you never replied to what I was saying about ledge grab limits.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Who was the best Akuma in the world?

Don't remember.

But, yeah, you're right. Just because M2K loses with MK doesn't mean that MK isn't broken. It's still worth considering that he may not be broken when the best MK in the world doesn't even win big tournies. He isn't even without a ledge grab limit. But with a ledge grab limit it's even, according to Larry.

M2K didn't even know how to catch an item.
Each time he trips he stands straight up and doesnt roll.
He REFUSED to play a defensive MK for several months.
M2K may be the best, but when it comes to changing the way he plays, its like trying to get a 2000lb man to walk without his ankle's shattering from his own weight.
(sorry to all big people)

I mean he 'could' be wrong, but it's really hard to argue with the Falco who always takes M2K to last stock, last game, high percentage about the MK matchup lol.../quote]
Winning is what matters in the MU's.
I REALLY doubt that Falco goes even with MK when Flaco gets zoned so very badly by MK even without planking.

But, yeah, without a ledge grab limit it's definitely MK favor.[/quote
Its an impossible matchup with planking

And DMG, you never replied to what I was saying about ledge grab limits.

NEVAR!

Oh but Shadowlink, he can kinda go even if he can't plank! I do not Jest, Fierce one!

PICS OR IT DIDNT HAPPEN!

 

[demonictoonlink]

Even with no ledge grab limit, try playing as MK against a spammy Falco on FD. I know you can just plank, but good luck getting the lead >__>

But the overall MU would definitely be MKs favor with no LGL. Hopefully there will always be one.

 

[Asdioh]

If only MK could duck under Falco's lasers like Kirby can... oh man @_@

If only grabbing the ledge didn't make you invincible after the third time, like how tethers don't work after three times... oh man @_@


ahem anyway, Unable I still think MK is the best character in the game to the extent where banning him would be the best idea, limits or no. People have been working on the matchup for well over a year now and still, only very few non-MKs stand a chance at taking him out :/

And about plank being timid about grabbing the ledge if the LGL was lower...the point was that he was easily "gaying" Diddy without even having to grab the ledge. He could have had 0 ledge grabs and still timed the match out while Diddy could seriously do nothing but put himself in a risky position while attempting to hit MK. :[

 

[DMG]

I can tell you, though, that saying "30 ledge grabs for MK. If the time runs out check ledge grabs, if MK is over 30 ledge grabs MK loses (or something along those lines)." IS easy to say and enforce, considering a ****ton of tournaments have been doing that for atleast the last like 5 months (since I've been playing in tournaments). How is "if MK goes over 30 (or whatever number is necesary for this (testing would need to be done) ledge grabs and the time runs out, he loses" NOT clean cut?

It is not clean cut because NO MATTER what number you come up with, it is a subjective choice. You can do all the testing in the world you want. There is NO number that would be 100% accepted by the community. Some people feel that 30 is too low. Others think that it is too high. In the end, the number you use is something you CHOOSE, and that TO's can switch or modify to their heart's content.

It would be like saying "You cannot IDC more than 10 times in a match". WHY 10? Sure, maybe the rule that "You cannot IDC more than such and such" is clear cut once you put it into play, but deciding on the number TO USE IN THE FIRST PLACE, IS NOTTTTTTTTTTT NOTTTTTTTTT CLEAR CUT, NEVER WILL BE CLEAR CUT, WILL ALWAYS BE SUBJECTIVE!

Because limiting just him (in an easily enforceable rule) is far better than banning him. Either I'm missing something, or this statement is ridiculously redundant.

Of course planking isn't broken on a stage without ledges... Peach's bomber against a wall isn't broken on stages without walls, either. What's the point in even mentioning it (probably missing something, like I said...)

Enforceable rule (arguable, since you would have to either have all matches recorded or have people watching each match to report about such things)... THAT HAPPENS TO BE CLEARY SUBJECTIVE! And It is your opinion that having a limiting rule on him is better than banning him.

I will use your logic for a second. Planking, as you know, is not possible on quite a few stages in Brawl. You think we should do anything basically BUT ban MK, even if this means limit him. Ok. Now when it comes to planking,I don't think we should ban or limit that. I think we should ban, or limit the stages, that allow planking. I think people would prefer not being split on whether to ban planking, and just simply ban or limit stages that allow planking. How is that NOT easily enforceable? All you do is say on the stage list "Hey you can't have too many stages that allow planking."

 

[ph00tbag]

You could edge hog Shiek when she did it though. Her UpB has a lot of commitment to it. While she stayed invincible throughout it all, she had to commit more on whether she would Upb to the stage, stay on the edge and wait, use an aerial on someone approaching, etc. She couldn't use an aerial, drop down, use another aerial, jump up, use another aerial, then Upb to the edge. MK is kind of like that.

MK's ledge camping is harder to stop framewise when it comes to trying to take the edge away from him or preventing him from getting the edge. You could prevent Shiek from getting the edge if you played your cards smartly, usually by taking it yourself. In Brawl, taking the edge against MK is usually a very bad thing for your character to be under/side of MK, and kinda offstage.

Go back, look at my post, and you'll find a part where I say MK is really good at ledgestalling. You have simply repeated me using a hell of a lot more words than I used. Tell me why the tactic itself is broken instead of putting it only in the context of one character who happens to be ridiculously good at it.

All your post shows is how singluarly broken MK is because of his ledgestalling advantage. Maybe that's your point, though.

 

[ShadowLink84]

I think that was his point.

 

[theunabletable]

M2K didn't even know how to catch an item.
Each time he trips he stands straight up and doesnt roll.
He REFUSED to play a defensive MK for several months.
M2K may be the best, but when it comes to changing the way he plays, its like trying to get a 2000lb man to walk without his ankle's shattering from his own weight.

He does now, though, I assume?
Okay...
But he plays defensive, now.

Winning is what matters in the MU's.

And Larry does win matches against top MKs. A lot.

Hell he wins most of the tournaments here on the west coast against Tyrant.

I REALLY doubt that Falco goes even with MK when Flaco gets zoned so very badly by MK even without planking.

Meh Idk much about the matchup. All I really know is that Larry does really, really well against MKs, and he says that the matchup is even with a ledge grab limit.

PICS OR IT DIDNT HAPPEN!

How about vids?

ahem anyway, Unable I still think MK is the best character in the game to the extent where banning him would be the best idea, limits or no. People have been working on the matchup for well over a year now and still, only very few non-MKs stand a chance at taking him out :/

Meh with a ledge grab limit I don't see him as "too good" at all.

It is not clean cut because NO MATTER what number you come up with, it is a subjective choice. You can do all the testing in the world you want. There is NO number that would be 100% accepted by the community. Some people feel that 30 is too low. Others think that it is too high. In the end, the number you use is something you CHOOSE, and that TO's can switch or modify to their heart's content.

What does it matter if a 30, 40, 50 edge grab limit is subjective? Like what is inherently WRONG with a subjective number?

It would be like saying "You cannot IDC more than 10 times in a match". WHY 10? Sure, maybe the rule that "You cannot IDC more than such and such" is clear cut once you put it into play, but deciding on the number TO USE IN THE FIRST PLACE, IS NOTTTTTTTTTTT NOTTTTTTTTT CLEAR CUT, NEVER WILL BE CLEAR CUT, WILL ALWAYS BE SUBJECTIVE!

It doesn't have to be 100% subjective. Check and see what the average edge grab amounts are for most matches, then put it some amount higher than that.

Anything that you can't really get in a match that doesn't involve planking would probably be a good amount.

But, really, what difference does it make if you make it 30, 40, or 50 ledge grabs? It doesn't matter at all what amount it is, as I can almost assure you (maybe there are very, very, very rare cases of anything else) that if someone times the opponent out as MK and they went over 30 ledge grabs that they were attempting to stall out the clock.

I don't care if the TO makes a subjective choice such as 30 ledge grabs instead of 40 ledge grabs, when neither should be hit without stalling. I couldn't care less if a TO decides 30 ledge grabs instead of 40 for subjective reasons; the outcome is the same.

 

[DMG]

Go back, look at my post, and you'll find a part where I say MK is really good at ledgestalling. You have simply repeated me using a hell of a lot more words than I used. Tell me why the tactic itself is broken instead of putting it only in the context of one character who happens to be ridiculously good at it.

All your post shows is how singluarly broken MK is because of his ledgestalling advantage. Maybe that's your point, though.

The tone I got from your post reading it was that you thought Shiek was better at planking/camping the edge than MK. Reading it again, you were referencing that Planking has always been a part of the game, nothing new, always something to deal with. Not specifically a Sheik vs MK discussion on the ledge haha.

I think that was his point.

Kinda, I was more focused on MK being better at it than Shiek, not necessarily it being broken (although now that I have confirmed some data with Hotgarbage, I am MUCH closer to having everything written up and a long thread posted concerning frame date with MK on the edge, and the cast trying to fight it.)

 

[theunabletable]

^Do you mind if I see the planking data? I don't think you're wrong, but I'm REALLY curious for what the data exactly says.\

Oh and I made an edit to my previous post, in case you haven't noticed.

 

[DMG]

Sure. I am gonna make a very detailed thread tomorrow covering this.

The TL:DR version:

1. Cast is heavily frame disadvantaged when it comes to dealing with planking, even on frame perfect theoretical terms giving them the benefit of the doubt.

2. Unless you powershield his Uairs, he is not technically punishable while planking. Donkey Balls, I know. Blows.

3. Even if you DO powershield his Uairs, you are only guaranteed to steal the edge from him, not guaranteed punishment on him with a drop off aerial or anything. For a lot of characters, getting able to steal the edge from MK is not exactly a "good thing" lol.

 

[ph00tbag]

The tone I got from your post reading it was that you thought Shiek was better at planking/camping the edge than MK. Reading it again, you were referencing that Planking has always been a part of the game, nothing new, always something to deal with. Not specifically a Sheik vs MK discussion on the ledge haha.

Little known fact: Pikachu has a reaaaaaally dumb ledgestall in SSB64.

 

[DMG]

Phoot: I actually know about that. Pikachu in that game is basically cemented forever as the best in the game lol. Nothing can or ever will topple him in that.

 

[theunabletable]

1. Cast is heavily frame disadvantaged when it comes to dealing with planking, even on frame perfect theoretical terms giving them the benefit of the doubt.

2. Unless you powershield his Uairs, he is not technically punishable while planking. Donkey Balls, I know. Blows.

3. Even if you DO powershield his Uairs, you are only guaranteed to steal the edge from him, not guaranteed punishment on him with a drop off aerial or anything. For a lot of characters, getting able to steal the edge from MK is not exactly a "good thing" lol.

O_o

That's...

Well then...

If that's all true... then I'll definitely agree that MK without a ledge grab limit is broken and bannable.

Little known fact: Pikachu has a reaaaaaally dumb ledgestall in SSB64.

Although there isn't a time limit, so is there any point in having a ledge stall in the game? lol

 

[ShadowLink84]

He does now, though, I assume?
Okay...
But he plays defensive, now. And Larry does win matches against top MKs. A lot.

My point is that the best MK user, tends to be stubborn.
haven't we also seen Larry lose more as well?
overall against the top MK i mean.

Hell he wins most of the tournaments here on the west coast against Tyrant.
Meh Idk much about the matchup. All I really know is that Larry does really, really well against MKs, and he says that the matchup is even with a ledge grab limit. How about vids? Meh with a ledge grab limit I don't see him as "too good" at all.

Going on how well ONE person is doing with a character isn't proof of anything.
You can get as close as you want but really, when its last stock high percent for both opponents, thats when you see how REALLY gay people will be in order to win.

 

[hotgarbage]

Meh with a ledge grab limit I don't see him as "too good" at all.

If you haven't already you should check out these two posts:

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=9544720&postcount=3652

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=9585089&postcount=5511


Both make a case for MK being "too good" using data from the current tournament scene..... aka data from tournaments where the vast majority have said ledge grab limits. Though of course the conclusion one would arrive to from looking at the data really depends where you personally decide to draw the "too good" line.

Just making sure you're up to speed here ^____^.

 

[Kaffei]

If you haven't already you should check out these two posts:

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=9544720&postcount=3652

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=9585089&postcount=5511


Both make a case for MK being "too good" using data from the current tournament scene..... aka data from tournaments where the vast majority have said ledge grab limits. Though of course the conclusion one would arrive to from looking at the data really depends where you personally decide to draw the "too good" line.

Just making sure you're up to speed here ^____^.

Just curious, can you show me a recent tourney where an MK won 1st

 

[hotgarbage]

february Fight Fest - 2/26/10
35 Entrants
$7 Entry
Lafayette, La
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=9692185&postcount=91

1: Lee Martin (mk) - $134.75
2: Hyro (tl) - $61.25
3: Jnig (wario) - $36.75
4: Roni (mk) - $12.25
5: Batto (mk / Marth)
5: V (marth)
7: Rickyb (marth)
7: Randall (g&w)

??????

Spoiler

???????????

 

[theunabletable]

My point is that the best MK user, tends to be stubborn.
haven't we also seen Larry lose more as well?
overall against the top MK i mean.

Well, yeah, he has lost more. But every time they've played it's been last match, last set, etc

Maybe it's not 100% completely even, but I really don't know. It's really close to even without a ledge grab maaaaybe in MKs favor by a small amount, but I honestly don't know.

Going on how well ONE person is doing with a character isn't proof of anything.

Usually I'd kinda agree. But really no one plays Falco right other than Larry. He's the only person at all who represents current Falco metagame.

I mean like with MK you do have other people who are close to as good as M2K is, but with Falco, there's really only Larry playing him well.

You can get as close as you want but really, when its last stock high percent for both opponents, thats when you see how REALLY gay people will be in order to win.

Fair enough. Maybe you're right and it's not completely even. It's just hard to argue with Larry who knows the Falco vs MK matchup better than pretty much everyone, and he says it's even.

Although without a ledge grab limit, I don't think anyone can deny that it's definitely really close to even.
@hotgarbage: When I get the time I'll make sure to read those.

??????

A TLink is second place?

Really?

 

[Crow!]

Sure. I am gonna make a very detailed thread tomorrow covering this.

The TL:DR version:

1. Cast is heavily frame disadvantaged when it comes to dealing with planking, even on frame perfect theoretical terms giving them the benefit of the doubt.

2. Unless you powershield his Uairs, he is not technically punishable while planking. Donkey Balls, I know. Blows.

3. Even if you DO powershield his Uairs, you are only guaranteed to steal the edge from him, not guaranteed punishment on him with a drop off aerial or anything. For a lot of characters, getting able to steal the edge from MK is not exactly a "good thing" lol.

If the ledge is taken, where is MK? Can MK just run/glide to the opposite edge with a head start owing to the non-MK player's ledge grab lag? Which characters, if any, would be fast enough to catch MK if he chooses to respond to the ledge grab in this way?

Just trying to bring up more things to consider in the analysis.

 

[DMG]

Profit!

DMG wins 100 coins!

PICK A BUCKET WARIO! LEFT OR RIGHT!

Crow: Depending on when the person hogged him, MK can actually just jump onstage, and start to run away LOL. Or if not, he is guaranteed a free shield onstage almost 100%. His frame window to do it is REALLY big unfortunately.

 

[Dark 3nergy]

YO **** THAT MINI GAME SO HARD

wasted SOO many coins on that

 

[DMG]

Dude did you know that it runs on a pattern? The bucket is not actually random? I made so much money off of it once I had the pattern down.

Wario Land: Super Mario Land 3 was amazing and I wish more games were like that.

 

[demonictoonlink]

A TLink is second place?

Really?

Hyro is the second best Toon Link after Jash. But yeah, the players below him were pretty unheard of. Actually I've heard of Jnig before I think...

Lee Martin is amazing though as well as Hyro!

 

[demonictoonlink]

Dude did you know that it runs on a pattern? The bucket is not actually random? I made so much money off of it once I had the pattern down.

Wario Land: Super Mario Land 3 was amazing and I wish more games were like that.

I learned that patter, too! No really, that game in it's entirety ruled so hard...Getting the world at the end symbolized me becoming a man.

Fail multiquote was a fail...

^
that was an edit...that didn't show as an edit because I edited too soon...fail edit about fail?
Just don't infract me, please...

 

[Dark 3nergy]

i still have it and it was the most amazing wario involved game i ever got excited about. Loving

THIS HAT RIGHT HERE

BADDIES TRY AND MESS WITH AIR BORNE 70mph SHOULDER SLAM GET *****

0:100 MU

HAVE A GOOD DAY BADDIE MC BAD

 

[demonictoonlink]

^^^

The first time I got Fsmashed by Wario I was like, "What the **** is this cheap *** ****?!?!"
Then I thought about how it would be if he had the jet pack and I shut up.

 

[Asdioh]

Wario's Fsmash is so stupid. IT DOESN'T NEED SUPERARMOR.
In that case, give Kirby's fsmash superarmor, or ban all Superarmor KO moves (like DK paunch, G&W upsmash, wario fsmash)

I'm gonna go make a thread about that now


no but seriously, where has the serious MK debate between the likes of Overswarm and Omni gone?

it was interesting...

 

[Col. Stauffenberg]

Usually I'd kinda agree. But really no one plays Falco right other than Larry. He's the only person at all who represents current Falco metagame.

There's still SK92...

 

[demonictoonlink]

Wario's Fsmash is so stupid. IT DOESN'T NEED SUPERARMOR.
In that case, give Kirby's fsmash superarmor, or ban all Superarmor KO moves (like DK paunch, G&W upsmash, wario fsmash)

I'm gonna go make a thread about that now


no but seriously, where has the serious MK debate between the likes of Overswarm and Omni gone?

it was interesting...

Agreed it was interesting. Those posts were always huge though. Sounds like too much work to keep doing.

 

[Crow!]

...no but seriously, where has the serious MK debate between the likes of Overswarm and Omni gone?

it was interesting...

Overswarm has been doing stuff this weekend. Like playing Brawl. Prior to leaving you can see OS trying to do the usual debate stuff with Adumbrodeus, but he didn't make a very good debate partner... OS's debate methods depend on his opponents wanting to sound smart, and Adum eventually just more or less admitted he was trolling, and there's not much you can do to counter that.

Omni's been less active in this debate for a while now.

Me, I'm waiting for Ankoku to finalize the next month's worth of data before continuing... seems silly to post something that'll be outdated in a couple days. Sounds like DMG has some relevant stuff in the works, too.

So don't worry, the thread will stay interesting for the near future... provided some anti-ban step up to the plate, anyway.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I don't see why we haven't temp-banned yet.

 

[Asdioh]

because he's not overpowered

Because there are a lot of MK mains that wouldn't like that :[

 

[Zankoku]

Overswarm has been doing stuff this weekend. Like playing Brawl. Prior to leaving you can see OS trying to do the usual debate stuff with Adumbrodeus, but he didn't make a very good debate partner... OS's debate methods depend on his opponents wanting to sound smart, and Adum eventually just more or less admitted he was trolling, and there's not much you can do to counter that.

Omni's been less active in this debate for a while now.

Me, I'm waiting for Ankoku to finalize the next month's worth of data before continuing... seems silly to post something that'll be outdated in a couple days. Sounds like DMG has some relevant stuff in the works, too.

So don't worry, the thread will stay interesting for the near future... provided some anti-ban step up to the plate, anyway.

You're waiting for nothing. February's been up for a while now.