Official Metaknight Discussion

[swordgard]

LOL r u serious...i hope zac planks the **** out of u one tourney so u can realize the mistake in this post. Planking with gaw is broken, hence why zac was about to eliminate ADHD from tourney at HOBO 21, a 65-35 matchup against a "better" player. Some chrs. simply have no options against it.

Or ADHD doesnt know how to fight it. Or his char is one of the few that doesn't beat it. Don't do black or white scenario please. I hope one day you see how bad your post was.

 

[DMG]

LOL r u serious...i hope zac planks the **** out of u one tourney so u can realize the mistake in this post. Planking with gaw is broken, hence why zac was about to eliminate ADHD from tourney at HOBO 21, a 65-35 matchup against a "better" player. Some chrs. simply have no options against it.

Gnes you don't understand my master plan. But it's ok.

Although I must say Gnes, if Planking destroys Diddy Kong, why label the matchup as 65:35 in Diddy Favor? I mean, technically you should factor in planking when talking about the matchup. If it's that strong for him, I doubt it's truly 65:35.

Or ADHD doesnt know how to fight it. Or his char is one of the few that doesn't beat it. Don't do black or white scenario please. I hope one day you see how bad your post was.

Eh you don't understand my master plan either. But it's ok.

 

[swordgard]

Gnes you don't understand my master plan. But it's ok.

Although I must say Gnes, if Planking destroys Diddy Kong, why label the matchup as 65:35 in Diddy Favor? I mean, technically you should factor in planking when talking about the matchup. If it's that strong for him, I doubt it's truly 65:35.




Eh you don't understand my master plan either. But it's ok.

Or maybe im embracing it

 

[OverLade]

I think he means the ruleset.

I was told LGLs were very common there.

So playing a Diddy I've never heard of convinced you that MK might not be banworthy, and now you're going to go get ***** by even better Diddys (unless you improve on the matchup, of course) and you think that won't convince you even further?

I don't know how good you are at the Diddy matchup, but I'm still not convinced it's even, and definitely not in Diddy's favor (not that I've really heard people claim that)

Basically I'm begging you to come back to the proban side.

Spoiler

not really

Hey GDX is legit. I personally vouch for him. +10 Cred GDX

Matchups in this game become so subjective that it's dumb.

You just have to look at "who loses to who" to know who's going to john about the matchup. And in the one friendly I played Gnes I beat him, but the day afterward I lost to GDX 1-2 in tourney.

Since I started practicing the matchup me and GDX go close (I win a slight majority), I just feel like the matchup is really difficult to execute unless you get gimps. You get him away from the bananas, but if you misread once and get Bthrow'd suddenly he's set the stage up against you. It's likely in MKs favor due to "the ability to gimp" but other than that I don't feel like MK really has anything on diddy outside of reads while on the ground.

And lol@Swordgard I love how blunt you are

 

[Atomsk_92]

Once again, Mew2King doesn't win a major that ADHD and Ally are at. Go figure.




Ban Metaknight Yo!

This ^

..

 

[Xyro77]

Ok atmosk, i will. Just for you. HOBO 24 and beyond will be meta ban.

 

[Gnes]

Matchups in this game become so subjective that it's dumb.

You just have to look at "who loses to who" to know who's going to john about the matchup. And in the one friendly I played Gnes I beat him, but the day afterward I lost to GDX 1-2 in tourney.

Since I started practicing the matchup me and GDX go close (I win a slight majority), I just feel like the matchup is really difficult to execute unless you get gimps. You get him away from the bananas, but if you misread once and get Bthrow'd suddenly he's set the stage up against you. It's likely in MKs favor due to "the ability to gimp" but other than that I don't feel like MK really has anything on diddy outside of reads while on the ground.

And lol@Swordgard I love how blunt you are

U liked HARD camping me in a friendly didnt u...i hope gdx crushes your soul

edit:@swordguard...uhh...i said some chrs. have no options against it, ADHD had 7/8 minutes(and thats just 1 game) to LEARN how to fight it, and I've had the experience as well, diddy cant stop it. So how exactly was my post bad?

 

[Atomsk_92]

I'm gonna type [/sarcasim] next to everything that's a joke.

 

[Asdioh]

Sorry Atomsk, but you were serious.

 

[OverLade]

U liked HARD camping me in a friendly didnt u...i hope gdx crushes your soul

Cmon I didnt even camp you that hard, I just couldn't find out how to approach, which means you were doing your job right .

Look forward to many friendlies this sat lol.

 

[Atomsk_92]

Sorry Atomsk, but you were serious.[/sarcasim]

Fix'd

..

 

[Gnes]

Cmon I didnt even camp you that hard, I just couldn't find out how to approach, which means you were doing your job right .

Look forward to many friendlies this sat lol.

LOL u dont have to approach...i will...eventually...cuz im stupid , when u coming in?

 

[DMG]

Atomsk failed to get Doubles, I shall get Triples.

 

[swordgard]

U liked HARD camping me in a friendly didnt u...i hope gdx crushes your soul

edit:@swordguard...uhh...i said some chrs. have no options against it, ADHD had 7/8 minutes(and thats just 1 game) to LEARN how to fight it, and I've had the experience as well, diddy cant stop it. So how exactly was my post bad?

7/8 minutes isnt that long, I consider that you need much more in depth experience to fight something like that.

Also, its not because diddy can't stop it that its broken and should be banned. Be less biased son. Maybe X character should simply get a boost cause hes good vs it. Let the game balance itself out or ban the characters which are overcentralizing. Don't ban something just because it beats your character and your mad about it.

 

[Asdioh]

It's spelled "sarcasm"

Where the crap is Overswarm?
Where the crap is
stuff

 

[demonictoonlink]

Fix'd

..

Good idea. Though the misspelling makes the sarcasm seem sarcastic so IDK...

Does anyone have the full results for Viridian City? I hear there weren't many MKs in top 8.

ban MK [sarcasim]

 

[OverLade]

LOL u dont have to approach...i will...eventually...cuz im stupid , when u coming in?

Im more of a crowdpleaserknight than a timeoutngetmunayknight. I'll lose and keep approaching before I time someone out lol.

And I'm coming in on Friday and 9pm. I doubt I'll be able to attend the smashfest the night before so instead I'll mediate over some Dojo vs Gnes videos

I'll get to the venue early tho.

 

[Gnes]

7/8 minutes isnt that long, I consider that you need much more in depth experience to fight something like that.

Also, its not because diddy can't stop it that its broken and should be banned. Be less biased son. Maybe X character should simply get a boost cause hes good vs it. Let the game balance itself out or ban the characters which are overcentralizing. Don't ban something just because it beats your character and your mad about it.

U know whats funny, throughout writing that post it never occurred to me to ban planking. But i cant really stop the "biased" part, considering if the gaw goes in with full intent to plank against diddy once he gets a stock lead, that pretty much ends the set if he wins game 1. I do completely agree with ur statement though.

What chr. besides mk can theoretically stop GAW's planking, the only one ive seen first hand is toon link, and thats because the gaw in question made a mistake.

 

[demonictoonlink]

Toon Link. You don't ****ing plank Toon Link.

(like you said)

And I just wanna say, MK doesn't automatically destroy GaW's planking. It's still even hard for MK, but he can do it.

I think Tink is the BEST anti-plank character available. Doesn't really matter though, because if GaW or especially MK aren't planking, then Tink has to fight them normally...and that doesn't necessarily work against MK.

 

[theONEjanitor]

While I think this is blatantly obvious, the problem is that honest, there isn't much proof tournament wise about planking. We have sets here and there, but not tournaments won because of it, or MASSIVE upsets because of it. Sure, on paper it IS broken (I have looked at the edge frame data, it's broken even under frame perfect theoretical terms for the person trying to fight it), but it's sadly not been proven IMO in tournament enough.

Not only that, but then you have the issue of "Ok, with these things allowed, he is Bannable, why not just go ahead and ban him instead of making up a subjective rule that also hurts other characters, and might not even work correctly in the first place?" or "Is Planking a facet of the game that you can reasonably regulate?". I think you could argue for either side in either instance.




Here is what is the problem. Almost ALL of these tournaments you see people doing well at like ADHD or Ally, there are Planking rules or rules in place that limit MK.

In a Metagame that involves a Ledge Grab Limit, MK is STILL arguably a bannable character (depends on your criteria, but for a few reasonable criteria sets out there he is bannable). He may not be 100% clear bannable with rules like that in place, but WHY have those rules in the first place?

I've heard the argument "There's nothing wrong with a character to be the best, or to be the most popular/centralize the game". Ok. Now why won't you let this character play with the edge to his hearts content? What's wrong with him being the best at grabbing the edge a lot safely? So what if he centralizes the game around grabbing the edge? How is this a bad thing?

Not only that, but let's assume that it's 100% bad/broken for MK to be allowed to play with the edge like that. In that circumstance, IF YOU ARE BASICALLY SAYING THAT THE CHARACTER, WHEN PLAYING WITH THE EDGE IS TOO GOOD, WHY NOT BAN THE CHARACTER? Think about it: EVERY CHARACTER IN THE GAME CAN PLANK, OR ATTEMPT TO PLANK. The Edge is not something reserved for solely MK. MK is simply playing the game, as it is given to him, as everyone else can attempt, and he just so happens to be the best at it. If it's too powerful for him to do, why make rules that also hamper the opportunity for other characters to attempt it?

Our community is trying to ban or prevent the best character in the game, from using tactics that everyone else can. Sure, maybe they SUCK at it, but oh well, too bad so sad.

Look at Akuma. He was given something that no one else had by a long shot. People deemed him, or the tactic, as broken. What did they do about it? HONESTLY, they could have said "Hey Akuma, don't use Air Fireball/extremely good tool you were given/smart strategy". But they didn't do that. Instead of trying to remove or prevent the moves or tactics that were deemed broken, they simply removed the character. They had an instance where they could have obviously targeted Akuma Exclusively with a rule preventing him specifically from doing that, as he was the only one who could attempt to do it. For MK however, everyone can do it, making it MUCH harder to fairly make a rule that targets him specifically WITHOUT also affecting other characters. Even if you COULD make a rule that was really good, Why make or use that rule in the first place? I don't think people ask that question enough.

Why should MK be any different? Why should we make rules to prevent him from using tactics, if we deem those/him broken? Why not just remove the actual character?

If you deem strategies like Planking or Scrooging with MK as "broken", why even attempt to ban or limit them instead of just getting rid of the character?

Planking is banned because its stalling, not because it's broken. How "good" a strategy it is is irrelevant. It's stalling the match, which has been against the rules since day one.

 

[Code Lyon]

Quick question >.< What is the ratio of MK vs. Lucas?

EDIT: and stalling is broken right?

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Debated between 60-40 to 65-35

IMO 65-35
ICO 60-40

 

[Atomsk_92]

Atomsk failed to get Doubles, I shall get Triples.

I always get doubles. I'm a doubles god.

 

[OverLade]

Planking is banned because its stalling, not because it's broken. How "good" a strategy it is is irrelevant. It's stalling the match, which has been against the rules since day one.

Stalling is only stalling if it's unbeatable/not practical to fight against...

 

[theONEjanitor]

Stalling is only stalling if it's unbeatable/not practical to fight against...

No stalling is stalling when the player stalling is intending to stall. lol

If it's clear that you are stalling the match and not intending to fight, what you are doing is DQ worthy, regardless of whether what you are doing is "beatable" or not.

in melee, you could stall the match by spamming side b below the ledge with peach. it wasn't unbeatable by any means, most every character could do something about it (depending on the stage, and peaches location), yet it was SPECIFICALLY banned, because its stalling.

 

[M@v]

When I asked you, I asked you concerning his planking FULL on. I don't like talking about matchups in the light of "Semi planking". I either do it full on, or none at all (cause if you go to a strict tournament, you might not be able to use that strategy lol).

So basically, if he is allowed to plank fully, how do you personally rank him?

Fully? Hmmm I'd probably put him up one or two more spots then. Like DDD couldnt do much against him unless he times a drop-off bair just right, for example. Marth would have a harder time, but would still beat GW. Wario i dunno; I don't think I've ever watched a tourney GW vs wario match lol. I dont use either of them.

 

[Code Lyon]

You avioded my question. Stalling is broken right?

 

[theunabletable]

So you think planking should be limited but not Scrooging (Scrooging on SV does not rely on the edges...)?

We should deal with what to do about planking before working on anything else, imo. One step at a time.

And 30-35 edge grabs could be used to stall the remaining 1/4 or 1/3 of the game, so it in no means solves the problem at all, especially when they can CP a stage that normally has periods of waiting like PS1 or CS.

30-35 might not be good enough. I DO NOT KNOW. Although considering I haven't see M2K or anyone be able to beat players like Larry/ADHD/Ally because of planking with only 30-35 ledge grabs, 30-35 might be a fine number. Maybe less. We can't be sure, yet, though.

And if you make the LGL too small, you risk disqualifying characters that not done anything worthy of being limited, more specifically characters with item setups (TL, Diddy, Link) and Pit's Planking, which has not been shown to be a problem.

And what's inherently wrong with just limiting MK's planking?

I mean, sure, you could say "if you acknowledge that the technique is broken why not ban MK altogether" and there is some reason in that. But banning a character because of a technique that a lot of people don't even use when that technique can be EASILY limited hurts the community FAR WORSE than having a simple ledge grab limit applicable only to MK on timeout.

Why wasn't this approach done with Akuma? Wouldn't it be easy to say, "No aerial fireballs"?

I don't know street fighter at all, really, so I can't answer that at all.

I can tell you, though, that saying "30 ledge grabs for MK. If the time runs out check ledge grabs, if MK is over 30 ledge grabs MK loses (or something along those lines)." IS easy to say and enforce, considering a ****ton of tournaments have been doing that for atleast the last like 5 months (since I've been playing in tournaments).

I don't believe in limiting a character, unless it deals with something CLEAN CUT that you can remove, that is a 100% problem.

How is "if MK goes over 30 (or whatever number is necesary for this (testing would need to be done) ledge grabs and the time runs out, he loses" NOT clean cut?

Why should we limit him, or the rest of the cast, from doing it?

Because limiting just him (in an easily enforceable rule) is far better than banning him.

It's not broken on stages that have no edges or stages you cannot fly under, is it?

Either I'm missing something, or this statement is ridiculously redundant.

Of course planking isn't broken on a stage without ledges... Peach's bomber against a wall isn't broken on stages without walls, either. What's the point in even mentioning it (probably missing something, like I said...)

 

[OverLade]

No stalling is stalling when the player stalling is intending to stall. lol

If it's clear that you are stalling the match and not intending to fight, what you are doing is DQ worthy, regardless of whether what you are doing is "beatable" or not.

in melee, you could stall the match by spamming side b below the ledge with peach. it wasn't unbeatable by any means, most every character could do something about it (depending on the stage, and peaches location), yet it was SPECIFICALLY banned, because its stalling.

How is it not unbeatable? When we say unbeatable, we don't mean it forces timeout, we mean it forces the opposing character to take a huge risk. Im sure Falco players wouldn't be happy to jump down and go for a backair stage spike.

That's why the tactic is banned, because it puts other characters at a severe tactical disadvantage, not because the opponent can't be touched. MK planking on the other hand, MK is untouchable...

 

[Asdioh]

Because as has been said many times, whatever number we choose for a ledgegrab limit will be subjective, and there are other methods of "planking" that Metaknight especially can do. I'm pretty sure Plank himself has a perfect example in his signature, lemme go get it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fbmu8fGcWaw here it is.

"air planking"

edit: edge grabs: 31. LOL
He didn't even need to grab the edge at all like he did at one point, and a lot of his edge grabs were actually that big rock during the rock change on PS1.


I've said it before, I'll say it again: If Metaknight is losing, it's not the character that lost.

 

[DMG]

Planking is banned because its stalling, not because it's broken. How "good" a strategy it is is irrelevant. It's stalling the match, which has been against the rules since day one.

Wario running away in the air for 8 minutes onstage is stalling then. I'm obviously not trying to fight people, so you gotta DQ me for not fighting EVEN when it's clear that the tactic is beatable?

There's a difference between stalling, and attempting to stall or doing actions that are ALMOST stalling. Planking isn't 100% stalling. You can't just say "Hey Bro, grabbing the edge is stalling". lol

Stalling is only stalling if it's unbeatable/not practical to fight against...

Indeed. If you are trying REALLY hard to avoid conflict as much as possible, but yet your actions are extremely beatable, then it matters not. I think the problem is that he has a predetermined perception that planking is stalling, or that the only reason people plank is to stall for time. Personally I would plank just to stay offstage against Falco or Diddy. Why fight them on their terms, when you can take things to the edge?

No stalling is stalling when the player stalling is intending to stall. lol

If it's clear that you are stalling the match and not intending to fight, what you are doing is DQ worthy, regardless of whether what you are doing is "beatable" or not.

in melee, you could stall the match by spamming side b below the ledge with peach. it wasn't unbeatable by any means, most every character could do something about it (depending on the stage, and peaches location), yet it was SPECIFICALLY banned, because its stalling.

The thing is that those actions are CLEARLY visible. When you try to stall with Peach or Jigglypuff, you are FORCED to use Side B, and you can say "Hey, don't use Side B in a stalling fashion". With MK, he isn't limited to simply a single move, or a predetermined set of moves or actions. The only thing he has to do is eventually regrab the edge, or land somewhere.

Like you said, it was SPECIFICALLY banned for stalling. Planking, by its very nature, is NOT a simple/one trick pony that is easy to pick out and be specific about. If I am planking with different patterns/using different stuff, how could you encompass everything while still specifically only targeting one thing? You can't, plain and simple.

How is it not unbeatable? When we say unbeatable, we don't mean it forces timeout, we mean it forces the opposing character to take a huge risk. Im sure Falco players wouldn't be happy to jump down and go for a backair stage spike.

That's why the tactic is banned, because it puts other characters at a severe tactical disadvantage, not because the opponent can't be touched. MK planking on the other hand, MK is untouchable...

Indeed, framewise he is untouchable. Which is sad.

 

[Tien2500]

DMG how is that post going in depth with MK's planking frames going? It should be interesting.

 

[OverLade]

DMG how is that post going in depth with MK's planking frames going? It should be interesting.

It's ****, that's all I have to say about it....

 

[theunabletable]

Because as has been said many times, whatever number we choose for a ledgegrab limit will be subjective

I'd rather have a subjective rule (than a rule that splits the community even further and causes tons of people (including someone as good as M2K, for instance) to quit, tbqh.

And it's not THAT subjective. It's not as subjective as "you're allowed to side-B against a wall as Peach, but you can't stall with it", for instance. It's a subjective number, but they're number that won't really appear in matches unless you're intending to plank and time out.

and there are other methods of "planking" that Metaknight especially can do. I'm pretty sure Plank himself has a perfect example in his signature, lemme go get it.

Once again, let's focus on ledge planking before going on to things like scrooing or air camping.

 

[hotgarbage]

Planking is banned because its stalling, not because it's broken. How "good" a strategy it is is irrelevant. It's stalling the match, which has been against the rules since day one.

Stalling: The act of deliberately avoiding any and all conflict so that one may make the game unplayable. Running away from an opponent to reach a better position is not stalling, while doing an infinite grab endlessly against a wall is. Any infinite chain grabs must end quickly after 300% has been reached so as to prevent excessive stalling.

What you personally consider stalling and what the SBR considers stalling are apparenlty two very different things.

 

[Asdioh]

fine then unable, let's say the ledge grab limit is set to 30, which is the lowest I've seen suggested. The video I just linked had Plank grabbing a ledge (remember this includes the rock on PS1, uh-oh, already found a flaw in the ledge grab limit plan!) 31 times, and it was obvious that he could have easily gone under 10 ledgegrabs in that match, if he had chosen to do so.

Well, I dunno about you, but it looks like the ledge grab limit is a bogus "solution," and it will only screw over characters like Pit, while leaving MK mostly unaffected. It will also screw over characters like Link, if their tether regrab x3 counts as 3 ledge grabs.

This has been done before: MK found ways around it, MK is the problem.

Once again, let's focus on ledge planking before going on to things like scrooing or air camping.

How about we put (at least) a temporary ban on MK, and THEN focus on ledge planking, air camping, and "scrooging" (no idea where that term came from) IF those problems present themselves?

You guys need to realize that many people consider MK "definitely bannable" regardless of whether planking/whatever rules are in place. I don't want MK banned because I have been planked in a match (I haven't, and I would obviously lose if I was) but because I fully understand what MK is capable of, and no other character has such an obvious lack of weaknesses.

 

[OverLade]

^so much ****.

edit:
Meaning Hotgarbages post.

 

[theunabletable]

fine then unable, let's say the ledge grab limit is set to 30, which is the lowest I've seen suggested. The video I just linked had Plank grabbing a ledge (remember this includes the rock on PS1, uh-oh, already found a flaw in the ledge grab limit plan!) 31 times, and it was obvious that he could have easily gone under 10 ledgegrabs in that match, if he had chosen to do so.

Well there ya go. He could have easily gone under 10 ledge grabs if he had wanted to. If there was a 30-35 ledge grab limit, I'm sure he would have been much more timid with how many times he grabbed the ledge.

Well, I dunno about you, but it looks like the ledge grab limit is a bogus "solution," and it will only screw over characters like Pit, while leaving MK mostly unaffected. It will also screw over characters like Link, if their tether regrab x3 counts as 3 ledge grabs.

That's why I'm saying a ledge grab limit that ONLY affects MK.

This has been done before: MK found ways around it, MK is the problem.

Yeah ledge grab limits have been done before, and notice that MK has even matchups (such as Falco) when there's a ledge grab limit. I don't see him bannable when there's a ledge grab limit.

Maaaaaaybe something needs to be done for scrooging eventually, but planking is generally considered "more broken" so I figure we should focus on it first.

How about we put (at least) a temporary ban on MK, and THEN focus on ledge planking, air camping, and "scrooging" (no idea where that term came from) IF those problems present themselves?

Why ban a character that doesn't seem to be bannable (if there's a ledge grab limit, anyways)?

You guys need to realize that many people consider MK "definitely bannable" regardless of whether planking/whatever rules are in place. I don't want MK banned because I have been planked in a match (I haven't, and I would obviously lose if I was) but because I fully understand what MK is capable of, and no other character has such an obvious lack of weaknesses.

Lack of weaknesses? Falco, Diddy, and Snake (and somewhat ICs, but stage dependant, really) say "hi".

I see him as the best character in the game. I don't see how that makes him bannable at all. You don't HAVE to play MK to win. I mean if MK is SOOOOO broken (not all pro-ban think he's broken. If you don't think he's broken then this doesn't apply to you) shouldn't the best player using him actually win tournaments?

 

[ShadowLink84]

Not every Akuma won tournaments.
**** happens. We are human. *shrugs*
Just putting it out there before people start playing with extremes.

 

[DMG]

THANK YOU! I WAS UNSURE WHO HERE ACTUALLY WAS AWARE OF THE FACT THAT AKUMA DIDN'T WIN EVERY NATIONAL OR LARGE REGIONAL!

Lol. Oh man. I think we must join forces and fight criminal scum.

Like Soap Scum, but the kind that is hard to remove.