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Official Metaknight Discussion

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OverLade

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Meh, I'm going to have to switch from pro-ban to on the fence now. I think Diddy goes even with MK, or close enough to even for him not to "just **** everyone". I played GDX last weekend and the weekend before in tournament, and I feel like I know the matchup, it's just really not easy to win regardless of how well you know it.

I'll be going to Texas this weekend and I'll get to play Gnes/Fliphop/Dao. Depending on what I learn there will determine my stance on what should be done with MK...

EDIT:
**** Xyro just ninja'd everyone.
 

JRob

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What Florida tournaments even allow you to play the matchup correctly, Red?

Edit: lol at those doubles results convincing everyone.
 

Spelt

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i think he's talking about LGL's in florida.
i doubt it's even if they don't exist.
 

Xyro77

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The doubles results are not there to say "OMG im going proban"

I just want you to look at all those nationals/regionals and think about the results.
 

Spelt

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Xyro's telling other people not to go proban just because of his post.


edit: ninja'd...
 

ShadowLink84

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Look at Akuma. He was given something that no one else had by a long shot. People deemed him, or the tactic, as broken. What did they do about it? HONESTLY, they could have said "Hey Akuma, don't use Air Fireball/extremely good tool you were given/smart strategy". But they didn't do that. Instead of trying to remove or prevent the moves or tactics that were deemed broken, they simply removed the character. They had an instance where they could have obviously targeted Akuma Exclusively with a rule preventing him specifically from doing that, as he was the only one who could attempt to do it. For MK however, everyone can do it, making it MUCH harder to fairly make a rule that targets him specifically WITHOUT also affecting other characters. Even if you COULD make a rule that was really good, Why make or use that rule in the first place? I don't think people ask that question enough.

Why should MK be any different? Why should we make rules to prevent him from using tactics, if we deem those/him broken? Why not just remove the actual character?

If you deem strategies like Planking or Scrooging with MK as "broken", why even attempt to ban or limit them instead of just getting rid of the character?
When you need to ban a character's move that clearly is enough to ban the character.
Implementing a LGR is NOT the same as banning the aerial fireball.

Let alone there were several things that made Akuma broken.
Legs were invincible.
Red fireball was the perfect frame trap
Long combo's that resulted in a dizzy.

The air fireball was only ONE of the many problems with Akuma in SF2.

Hell if the only broken aspect of Akuma was the aerial fireball, he would still be worth banning, because if you need to go to such an extent, then clearly the character should not be legal.
If you need to limit the character in such a method, you would also be setting a standard, let alone the fact that its foolish to do such a thing.


The MK situation is not comparable. Nor was Jiggly's or Peach's.
It was only within that ONE aspect in which those respective moves were broken (stalling) which was clearly viewable (IDC is more difficult).

Akuma=/=those cases.

Please do not bring up Akuma.
 

Asdioh

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Meh, I'm going to have to switch from pro-ban to on the fence now. I think Diddy goes even with MK, or close enough to even for him not to "just **** everyone". I played GDX last weekend and the weekend before in tournament, and I feel like I know the matchup, it's just really not easy to win regardless of how well you know it.

I'll be going to Texas this weekend and I'll get to play Gnes/Fliphop/Dao. Depending on what I learn there will determine my stance on what should be done with MK...

EDIT:
**** Xyro just ninja'd everyone.
So playing a Diddy I've never heard of convinced you that MK might not be banworthy, and now you're going to go get ***** by even better Diddys (unless you improve on the matchup, of course) and you think that won't convince you even further?

I don't know how good you are at the Diddy matchup, but I'm still not convinced it's even, and definitely not in Diddy's favor (not that I've really heard people claim that)

Basically I'm begging you to come back to the proban side.
not really :p
 

Master Raven

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FL doesn't officially implement LGLs in most tournies, many of the players just don't wanna plank/scrooge/whatever

Also I have grown completely apathetic about the MK issue and don't give a flying **** what'll happen to him at this point.

Also also I kinda agree about MK in doubles, LOL

@Asdioh, GDX is pretty well-known.
 

Zankoku

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People who never heard of GDX pay zero attention to non-traveling part of the Florida scene.
 

DMG

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DMG#931
So what do you do? Do you think a LGL is a good idea?

"If you need to limit the character in such a method, you would also be setting a standard, let alone the fact that its foolish to do such a thing."

If Planking is broken, what do you do? Do you try and ban the tactic, the character abusing it, or neither? If you have an overpowered strategy, that is not able to be labeled clearly as stalling, and the best character now reaches a "bannable" level because of this tactic, what do we do?

I'm fully aware of what made Akuma broken. It was more than the Fireball, although the Fireball on its own was a load of over powered crap lol. It's clear that the two cases are NOT entirely similar, HOWEVER I think people can learn a lot by looking at the approach they took in handling that situation. Their approach was to ban the character, not to limit him in any way with rules that either specifically limited him, or rules that limited the cast in general.
 

M@v

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You have to remember when talking about planking that mk isn't the only one that can do it. Sure, he's the best at it, but consider G&W. He has pretty nasty planking as well.

Keep that in mind when discussing that rule :/
 

DMG

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Mav: G&W's planking has holes in it to exploit. It is strong, but it does not skyrocket him as a character.

If G&W is unanimously agreed to be lower than top 5, or even top 8, then it's hard to argue that planking is broken for him. Sure, it may be "effective" for him, but it is not proven to be "broken".

I just find it odd that people tell me "Yo Dawg, G&W can Plank MAD sick" and then when I ask them where he should be ranked, they say "Oh naw he's not top 5/8, he might not even be top 10" lol. Same with Pit. Like if planking was TRULY that good for them, you would think they would be ranked somewhere in the ballpark of top 5-8. Even if they reached that level, saying that planking is "broken" for them in particular could be hard as you have a nice bunch of characters also ahead of them.
 

DMG

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DMG#931
Hey GDX is legit. I personally vouch for him. +10 Cred GDX
 

Masky

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he also went to HOBO and got *****. i think he got last
Ah yes, what better way to get people to travel to your tournaments than to make fun of them. brb buying my plane ticket!!

and I'm pretty sure that was like... half a year ago or something around that
 

Xyro77

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i didnt make fun of him. i was reminding florida that they aint so hot(whobo 2 trash talk). relax, florida know swhat im talking about
 

DMG

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Like I said, I vouch for him as far as being legit is concerned. I met him at Genesis actually. Maybe one of the HOBO's too, dunno if I was at that one or not. I wanna say I was lol
 

ShadowLink84

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So what do you do? Do you think a LGL is a good idea?

"If you need to limit the character in such a method, you would also be setting a standard, let alone the fact that its foolish to do such a thing."

If Planking is broken, what do you do? Do you try and ban the tactic, the character abusing it, or neither? If you have an overpowered strategy, that is not able to be labeled clearly as stalling, and the best character now reaches a "bannable" level because of this tactic, what do we do?

I'm fully aware of what made Akuma broken. It was more than the Fireball, although the Fireball on its own was a load of over powered crap lol. It's clear that the two cases are NOT entirely similar, HOWEVER I think people can learn a lot by looking at the approach they took in handling that situation. Their approach was to ban the character, not to limit him in any way with rules that either specifically limited him, or rules that limited the cast in general.
True, and I do admit that it is rather discerning when we repeatedly have to restrain Metaknight repeatedly rather than just ban him off the bat.
It would be understandable of the planking in itself, entirely was broken, but with how Metaknight is repeatedly being restricted, it is rather perturbing.

I don't agree with he ledge grab limit.
Metaknight has his methods of circumventing it, via either scrooging or air camping.

METAKNIGHT PLANKS THE BEST.
Wait, but why didn't we limit it when G&W and Pit do it?
METAKNIGHT IS SCROOGING!

Though if I remember correctly, Pit's glide speed was faster.

It just seems like alot of the rulings are based around what metaknight is doing with the tactic, moreso than the tactic itself.
 

Atomsk_92

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Once again, Mew2King doesn't win a major that ADHD and Ally are at. Go figure.




Ban Metaknight Yo!
 

JRob

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FL doesn't officially implement LGLs in most tournies, many of the players just don't wanna plank/scrooge/whatever
Did some research out of curiosity.


ZP Monthlies said:
- All forms of stalling are banned. Stalling- The act of deliberately avoiding any and all conflict so that one may make the game unplayable. This includes MK infinite cape, or any form of stalling under the stage (DK spin, sonic charge B, snake infinite down B teching, etc). Stalling can result in a forfeit of that match for the player thats "stalling" by a TO or judge.
WATO 5 said:
To the brawlers: I don't want to deal with any ledge grab rule BS. If you guys don't sort it out if a situation like that arises, I'll just give the Set to the player/team that played less gay. .__.
C.A.G.S. said:
All forms of stalling are banned. Stalling is defined as the act of deliberately avoiding any and all conflict so that one may make the game unplayable. This includes MK infinite cape, or any form of stalling under the stage or on the ledge (DK spin, sonic charge B, snake infinite down B teching, planking, etc). Stalling can result in a forfeit of that match for the player thats "stalling" by a TO or judge. Please call me (Lio) over if you suspect there to be a stalling issue.

Anti-Planking Rule: If you have more than 60 ledge grabs at the end of the match, you have forfeit your win for that match
Next Level Lan and Cecil present: The Inaugural Brawl said:
[Doesn't mention anything about stalling or LGLs.]
^Last four FL tournaments posted in the Atlantic South forum.

Looks like a normal state... >_>
 

Master Raven

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I dunno what you're implying by "normal state", but even then nobody really bothers to plank/scrooge/starfish regardless of whether LGLs are implemented or not from what I can tell, or at least, I've never heard any reports of time outs or anything like that around here.

</almost timed out Nick Riddle last year>
 

JRob

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Just sayin that Florida looks normal, as in I believe most TOs make anti-ledge-camping rules. Nothin evil or anything. Lol, though I still fail to understand why.
 

DMG

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Mav: That's the thing though. If planking was "OMG WTF AJDAJKDSA" for G&W, you would assume he would be ranked much higher, right? Like, on a top 5-8 level? Besides the fact that I've looked at it extensively from both sides concerning his planking, you would think that if his planking was truly godly, that it would reflect in how people felt the character should be placed.
 

M@v

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But you really don't see people planking BECAUSE of the rule though :/. I've played G&Ws that plank. It sucks. But none of them were patient enough to plank for long.
 

DMG

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When I asked you, I asked you concerning his planking FULL on. I don't like talking about matchups in the light of "Semi planking". I either do it full on, or none at all (cause if you go to a strict tournament, you might not be able to use that strategy lol).

So basically, if he is allowed to plank fully, how do you personally rank him?
 

Gnes

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Mav: G&W's planking has holes in it to exploit. It is strong, but it does not skyrocket him as a character.

If G&W is unanimously agreed to be lower than top 5, or even top 8, then it's hard to argue that planking is broken for him. Sure, it may be "effective" for him, but it is not proven to be "broken".

I just find it odd that people tell me "Yo Dawg, G&W can Plank MAD sick" and then when I ask them where he should be ranked, they say "Oh naw he's not top 5/8, he might not even be top 10" lol. Same with Pit. Like if planking was TRULY that good for them, you would think they would be ranked somewhere in the ballpark of top 5-8. Even if they reached that level, saying that planking is "broken" for them in particular could be hard as you have a nice bunch of characters also ahead of them.
LOL r u serious...i hope zac planks the **** out of u one tourney so u can realize the mistake in this post. Planking with gaw is broken, hence why zac was about to eliminate ADHD from tourney at HOBO 21, a 65-35 matchup against a "better" player. Some chrs. simply have no options against it.
 

JRob

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But you really don't see people planking BECAUSE of the rule though :/.
Which is why TOs need to keep it legal.

Imagine if TOs banned Pit before the game came out.

"WHY IS PIT BANNED?"
"Cuz he's too good."
'NO HE ISN'T!"
"Prove it. lulz."
".__."
 
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