Official Metaknight Discussion

[Masmasher@]

Ok answer this or give an estimate.

How many times has a MK won a top-of-the-metagame tourney compare to other characters?

Lol can some one please this guy crow's chart of MK compare to other people so I don't to keep going on with this?

EDIT: Mariob that guy listen to him.

yeah cause i obviously havent read the entire thread as i have stated 100 some odd pages back. (yes that was sarcasm)

look... crows data shows POTIENTIAL to overcentralize. but thats the thing. metaknight has showed this "potiential" for years now. but yet he gets managed.

 

[Turbo Ether]

Poor NinjaLink was literally one-hit away from knocking M2K out of losers.

 

[BSP]

Is over centralization not worthy of a ban?

The results of this tourney made me reconsider my position, but because of Pound 4 results alone (Over 50% of matches were MK v. X) we shouldn't draw any conclusions on this tournament alone and should look at the overall trend.

His centralization damages the metagame/community. They go hand in hand to basically.

What he said. Overcentralization is damaging to the metagame, and is included in what I said.

 

[Code Lyon]

yeah cause i obviously havent read the entire thread as i have stated 100 some odd pages back. (yes that was sarcasm)

look... crows data shows POTIENTIAL to overcentralize. but thats the thing. metaknight has showed this "potiential" for years now. but yet he gets managed.

Lol wow you don't what you were reading then. It was not showing potential it was the real thing. Lol i see you not gonna listen and say facts are theorycraft. So...i'm done agruing with you.

 

[rvkevin]

Poor NinjaLink was literally one-hit away from knocking M2K out of losers.

Remember what happened last time they played? I'll give you a hint, it didn't turn out pretty for Diddy.

 

[Zankoku]

Keep it civil, guys.

rvkevin: Last time they played was yesterday, you're a bit out of date.

 

[Code Lyon]

Sorry Ankoku.

 

[Turbo Ether]

Remember what happened last time they played? I'll give you a hint, it didn't turn out pretty for Diddy.

So? The more recent set (yesterday) is more relevant than that set from over a month ago. It's evident that NinjaLink adjusted his strategy/improved and the set was significantly closer this time around.

 

[<π]

Overcentralization o·ver·cen·tral·i·za·tion, noun
1. L.O.L.
2. A joke.

 

[Spelt]

sounds like something that came from urbandictionary

 

[Masmasher@]

Lol wow you don't what you were reading then. It was not showing potential it was the real thing. Lol i see you not gonna listen and say facts are theorycraft. So...i'm done agruing with you.

yes because thats what overcentralization is...
the data isnt conclusive.

 

[rvkevin]

So? The more recent set (yesterday) is more relevant than that set from over a month ago. It's evident that NinjaLink adjusted his strategy/improved and the set was significantly closer this time around.

Maybe my point wasn't clear enough...I don't think gauging someones skill off of one day is smart. Maybe NL is getting to ADHD status, or maybe M2K isn't the robot we think he is.

 

[Turbo Ether]

Maybe my point wasn't clear enough...I don't think gauging someones skill off of one day is smart. Maybe NL is getting to ADHD status, or maybe M2K isn't the robot we think he is.

Either scenario is certainly possible.

 

[rvkevin]

Either scenario is certainly possible.

Exactly, and each scenario leads to opposite conclusions.

If NL is getting to ADHD status, then Diddy is a viable alternative to MK. If M2K is not the robot we think he is, then that is a testament to MK's ability, namely playing bad and still being able to win. That's why looking at individual tournament results are pointless and we need to look at the trend. It doesn't mean much saying X was so close to winning against someone when you look at their record and find X is 0-10 against them.

 

[DMG]

Without those rules, he's clearly bannable.

While I think this is blatantly obvious, the problem is that honest, there isn't much proof tournament wise about planking. We have sets here and there, but not tournaments won because of it, or MASSIVE upsets because of it. Sure, on paper it IS broken (I have looked at the edge frame data, it's broken even under frame perfect theoretical terms for the person trying to fight it), but it's sadly not been proven IMO in tournament enough.

Not only that, but then you have the issue of "Ok, with these things allowed, he is Bannable, why not just go ahead and ban him instead of making up a subjective rule that also hurts other characters, and might not even work correctly in the first place?" or "Is Planking a facet of the game that you can reasonably regulate?". I think you could argue for either side in either instance.

MK isn't broken at the top of the metagame, that's already out the window. He's not broken really, just difficult.

The only arguement that should be considered is damaging to the metagame/community.

Here is what is the problem. Almost ALL of these tournaments you see people doing well at like ADHD or Ally, there are Planking rules or rules in place that limit MK.

In a Metagame that involves a Ledge Grab Limit, MK is STILL arguably a bannable character (depends on your criteria, but for a few reasonable criteria sets out there he is bannable). He may not be 100% clear bannable with rules like that in place, but WHY have those rules in the first place?

I've heard the argument "There's nothing wrong with a character to be the best, or to be the most popular/centralize the game". Ok. Now why won't you let this character play with the edge to his hearts content? What's wrong with him being the best at grabbing the edge a lot safely? So what if he centralizes the game around grabbing the edge? How is this a bad thing?

Not only that, but let's assume that it's 100% bad/broken for MK to be allowed to play with the edge like that. In that circumstance, IF YOU ARE BASICALLY SAYING THAT THE CHARACTER, WHEN PLAYING WITH THE EDGE IS TOO GOOD, WHY NOT BAN THE CHARACTER? Think about it: EVERY CHARACTER IN THE GAME CAN PLANK, OR ATTEMPT TO PLANK. The Edge is not something reserved for solely MK. MK is simply playing the game, as it is given to him, as everyone else can attempt, and he just so happens to be the best at it. If it's too powerful for him to do, why make rules that also hamper the opportunity for other characters to attempt it?

Our community is trying to ban or prevent the best character in the game, from using tactics that everyone else can. Sure, maybe they SUCK at it, but oh well, too bad so sad.

Look at Akuma. He was given something that no one else had by a long shot. People deemed him, or the tactic, as broken. What did they do about it? HONESTLY, they could have said "Hey Akuma, don't use Air Fireball/extremely good tool you were given/smart strategy". But they didn't do that. Instead of trying to remove or prevent the moves or tactics that were deemed broken, they simply removed the character. They had an instance where they could have obviously targeted Akuma Exclusively with a rule preventing him specifically from doing that, as he was the only one who could attempt to do it. For MK however, everyone can do it, making it MUCH harder to fairly make a rule that targets him specifically WITHOUT also affecting other characters. Even if you COULD make a rule that was really good, Why make or use that rule in the first place? I don't think people ask that question enough.

Why should MK be any different? Why should we make rules to prevent him from using tactics, if we deem those/him broken? Why not just remove the actual character?

If you deem strategies like Planking or Scrooging with MK as "broken", why even attempt to ban or limit them instead of just getting rid of the character?

 

[Code Lyon]

Omg DMG is blasting *****s

 

[Spelt]

proban argument i haven't heard yet.
good stuff.

 

[DMG]

I'm not even Proban dawg lol. I'm just saying "Hey, either the character is not ban worthy and you need to shut the hell up about planking, or the character is banworthy and maybe there is a better alternative that trying to "limit" him"

Same principle as the people who think Snake is the best in the game WHILE MK is allowed to plank, but want planking banned. "Hey, either MK is broken with Planking, or if Snake is better than him why ban planking?"

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Is over centralization not worthy of a ban?

The results of this tourney made me reconsider my position, but because of Pound 4 results alone (Over 50% of matches were MK v. X) we shouldn't draw any conclusions on this tournament alone and should look at the overall trend.

Overcentralization o·ver·cen·tral·i·za·tion, noun
1. L.O.L.
2. A joke.

I'm going to step in at this point and say, anyone who DOESN'T see overcentralization as a legitimate reason to ban a character is a ****ing idiot. It's that simple. Virtually every other valid ban criteria can be led back to overcentralizing (other than things like a character who causes the game to crash every match).

proban argument i haven't heard yet.
good stuff.

It's been around for a while, and it makes perfect sense.



BTW, what's up with OMAR and the anti-ban, anti-BBR-ruling brigade? I'm getting worried.

 

[Spelt]

but that's what proban is saying too. :/
obviously it would be nice for proban if mk was banned instead of making all of these random rules to limit him.

 

[DMG]

You can be Anti Ban and opposed to Planking Rules/limits for the reasons I stated. It's not limited to anyone or any particular "side". It's just common sense or being smart about it IMO.

 

[rvkevin]

DMG, if planking is broken, then wouldn't that fit the description of stalling? It would be like banning other characters for being broken for having stalling techniques (Peach bomber, Jiggly Rising Pound), but instead we just say this can't be used for stalling...

 

[theunabletable]

Here is what is the problem. Almost ALL of these tournaments you see people doing well at like ADHD or Ally, there are Planking rules or rules in place that limit MK.

Why ban MK if we have a simpler, less all-encompassing solution, that doesn't hurt the community (ledge grab limits. We didn't ban Peach or Jiggs in Melee because of their stupid abilities to stall, we just limited that ability to stall. Oh and look, the Melee community isn't dying right now!)

EDIT: somewhat ninja'd by rykevin...

 

[Spelt]

You can be Anti Ban and opposed to Planking Rules/limits for the reasons I stated. It's not limited to anyone or any particular "side". It's just common sense or being smart about it IMO.

i know, i'm not saying you're proban, i don't really know what you are.

DMG, if planking is broken, then wouldn't that fit the description of stalling? It would be like banning other characters for being broken for having stalling techniques (Peach bomber, Jiggly Rising Pound), but instead we just say this can't be used for stalling...

edit: oh nevermind, i thought you were talking about brawl...
-******-

 

[DMG]

Simpler, Less all Encompassing Solution?

Rofl.

Ledge Grab Limits/similar rules are subjective, are VERY ALL ENCOMPASSING, that hurts each and every character's edge play.

Melee doesn't have Planking banned or limited. Stalling with Jiggs or Peach is different than what MK does. MK moves around, comes back to the edge. He doesn't stay in one spot, he doesn't infinitely recover like Jiggs, he moves and is quite hittable.

Can everyone Side B forever like Jiggs or Peach? Nope. Can everyone grab the edge over and over? Yes. Can MK do this the best? Yes. Why is this a problem?

 

[Asdioh]

And don't forget that MK's Infinite Dimensional Cape is the equivalent of these other characters stalling techniques, and it was immediately banned for this reason.

Planking is a bit different from stalling, and like DMG said because he's a wise man, the rules limiting it are very subjective. There's nothing "simple" about stopping it.

 

[theunabletable]

Simpler, Less all Encompassing Solution?

Rofl.

Ledge Grab Limits/similar rules are subjective, are VERY ALL ENCOMPASSING, that hurts each and every character's edge play.

How much more different is the game's meta game with a ledge grab limit than it is without MK? It's way more changed if you remove MK.

All encompassing probably was not the right term to convey that thought, however.

And 30-35 ledge grab limit (I've never seen an MK hardcore plank out the timer with 30-35 ledge grabs, so I'd say that's an okay place to start) is quite simple to enforce. If you time out check your ledge grabs, if you went over 30-35 then you lose (if you both go over 30-35 then you can decide the winner based off of whoever would've won by timeout, or by whoever had the least ledge grabs). Maybe not quite as simple as not being able to move your icon over to the MK icon, but extremely simple nonetheless.

Melee doesn't have Planking banned or limited. Stalling with Jiggs or Peach is different than what MK does. MK moves around, comes back to the edge. He doesn't stay in one spot, he doesn't infinitely recover like Jiggs, he moves and is quite hittable.

Sure their methods of stalling aren't the exact same, but clearly they're about as bad (as far as I know, anyway) and all of them have an easy to enforce rule that stops that.

Why completely ban MK when an easily enforced rule that is already in effect in most tournaments stops him from being bannable?

 

[rvkevin]

And 30-35 ledge grab limit (I've never seen an MK hardcore plank out the timer with 30-35 ledge grabs, so I'd say that's an okay place to start) is quite simple to enforce.

So you think planking should be limited but not Scrooging (Scrooging on SV does not rely on the edges...)? And 30-35 edge grabs could be used to stall the remaining 1/4 or 1/3 of the game, so it in no means solves the problem at all, especially when they can CP a stage that normally has periods of waiting like PS1 or CS. And if you make the LGL too small, you risk disqualifying characters that not done anything worthy of being limited, more specifically characters with item setups (TL, Diddy, Link) and Pit's Planking, which has not been shown to be a problem.

Why completely ban MK when an easily enforced rule that is already in effect in most tournaments stops him from being bannable?

Why wasn't this approach done with Akuma? Wouldn't it be easy to say, "No aerial fireballs"?

 

[DMG]

I don't believe in limiting a character, unless it deals with something CLEAN CUT that you can remove, that is a 100% problem. IDC, for example, is something I would ban on ANY character in the game almost in a heart beat. Planking, however, is basically a part of the game. There are edges to grab, every character can grab the edge, every character becomes invincible for a short period of time for doing such a thing. MK is the best at taking that, and working with it. Why should we limit him, or the rest of the cast, from doing it? It's not broken for them, is it? It's not broken on stages that have no edges or stages you cannot fly under, is it?

 

[Masmasher@]

Well obviously tactics can overcentralize also.

 

[Praxis]

Viridian City doubles:
1:

+

Ally + M2K (A2K) ($410.00)
2:

+

Shadow + dmbrandon (Sunshine (Y)) ($205.00)
3:

+

Atomsk + Zucco (We get salty!) ($82.00)
4:

+

Anti + Cable (Where the birds at?) ($41.00)
5:

+

Malcolm + Blackanese (Malcolm + Blackanese) ($20.50)
5:

+

Inui + ADHD (Inui and ADHD) ($20.50)


Lulz.

Double MK got second at TourneyPlay 5 too. I dunno if it is as bad as it is made out to be.

 

[Code Lyon]

Turbo Ether that's that most up-to-date top-of-metagame tourney look at the MKs.

 

[demonictoonlink]

This was doubles...

 

[Asdioh]

Inui teaming with ADHD? I dunno why, but that's a weird thought.

Anyway, mass MK in the doubles results, only 3/8 MK in the top 8, but quite a few lower down. Ally, ADHD, and M2k on top as usual.

No surprises here o_o

 

[Luigi player]

Viridian City doubles:
1:

+

Ally + M2K (A2K) ($410.00)
2:

+

Shadow + dmbrandon (Sunshine (Y)) ($205.00)
3:

+

Atomsk + Zucco (We get salty!) ($82.00)
4:

+

Anti + Cable (Where the birds at?) ($41.00)
5:

+

Malcolm + Blackanese (Malcolm + Blackanese) ($20.50)
5:

+

Inui + ADHD (Inui and ADHD) ($20.50)


Lulz.

Double MK got second at TourneyPlay 5 too. I dunno if it is as bad as it is made out to be.

Ally used MK too sometimes. At least in the last 2 matches in GFs...

 

[Praxis]

Inui teaming with ADHD? I dunno why, but that's a weird thought.

Anyway, mass MK in the doubles results, only 3/8 MK in the top 8, but quite a few lower down. Ally, ADHD, and M2k on top as usual.

No surprises here o_o

He was supposed to team with me, but my flight got cancelled.

Then he was supposed to team with Co18, but his flight got cancelled too.

Inui got snow-*****.

 

[Xyro77]

Viridian City 7 doubles

1:

+

Ally + M2K
2:

+

Shadow + dmbrandon
3:

+

Atomsk + Zucco
4:

+

Anti + Cable
5:

+

Malcolm + Blackanese
5:

+

Inui + ADHD



WHOBO doubles

1: + / m2k+inui

2: + Tyrant+dsf

3: + Infinity+Utd Zac

4: + Dojo+Santi

5: + Gnes+FlipHop

5: + Espy+Zori



Apex doubles

1: + m2k+ally

2: + Ult Razer+Utd Zac

3: / + Inui+atmosk

4: / + Anti+Judge

5: + Adhd+Fatal

5: + Anther+SamuraiPanda



COT4 doubles

1: + m2k+lee

2: + Spammer+snakeeee

3: / + Inui+atmosk

4: + Chudat+Azen

5: + Korn+Boss

5: + Seibrik+Ally



Genesis doubles

1: + m2k+Fiction

2: + Sean+Ally

3: + Dojo+Utd Zac

4: + Havok+MikeHaze

5: + Inui+Atmosk

5: + Ling+Excel



Pound 4 doubles

1: + m2k+ally

2: / + / Atmosk+Lee Martin

3: + Adhd+Co18

4: + DmBrandon+Shadow

5: + NinjaLink+MalcomM

5: + ChuDat+Candy



EVO 2009 doubles

1: + m2k+Ally

2: + Fiction+MikeHaze

3: + Havok+Hall

4: + Fow+Sk92

5: + Tyrant+Dsf

5: / + Lain+MoJoe

 

[Code Lyon]

Omg proban ****.

 

[Albert.]

HMM...

I think those doubles reults might have something in common.

HMMM

 

[Code Lyon]

What are you talking about? I dont see anything? Lol