Official Metaknight Discussion

[etecoon]

Anti-ban people are just sick of this cycle to the point where we don't feel like posting anymore.

their loss, overswarm has been beasting in this topic and anyone that wasn't really sure before reading it, is now much more likely to have been persuaded that MK needs to be banned than not. the way omni has chosen to "end" this debate, OS doesn't need a 66% BBR majority anymore, he just needs the community on his side. the people anti ban is now ignoring out of apathy, lol

 

[Tommy_G]

You cannot win a subjective argument and that's what it all ends up as. It's like arguing what's the best color, what's the best political party, or what's the correct religion.

Ignoring it isn't the best course of action either, Mr. TG.
It will only escalate more if you do.

I disagree. Not responding to a subjective argument allows it to die out.

Person 1: What's the best color?
Person 2: Green
Person 1: No, blue is.
Person 2: No, green is.
Person 1: No, blue is.
Person 2: Ok........................
.................
....
.

 

[CRASHiC]

Except this isn't subjective anymore. That was the case a while ago, but now we have concrete numbers, we have frames, hitboxes, as well as tournament and dominance data. We have concrete data to evaluate. and before you say "numbers are subjective as well" then do so with Crow's data. Take Crow's data and use it to interpret why Metaknight should NOT be banned, because that's truly what you would mean by saying the numbers are subjective.

 

[OverLade]

If something is subjective then it should be left up to the standards of the community. If everyone in a room is republican, they're not going to say "politics is subjective so we can't make a decision becasue it might favor a particular group".

This brings us back to the "what kind of poll would be representative of people that actually go to tourneys and understand what meta knight is and isn't capable of?".

 

[CRASHiC]

I disagree. Not responding to a subjective argument allows it to die out.

Person 1: What's the best color?
Person 2: Green
Person 1: No, blue is.
Person 2: No, green is.
Person 1: No, blue is.
Person 2: Ok........................
.................
....
.

Okay, honestly, tiers are NOT subjective. Seriously, tiers aren't saying "we like this charecter." You can't honestly say that best character in game is subjective. You can't make the claim. Akuma is not subjective.

 

[Espy Rose]

I disagree. Not responding to a subjective argument allows it to die out.

Person 1: What's the best color?
Person 2: Green
Person 1: No, blue is.
Person 2: No, green is.
Person 1: No, blue is.
Person 2: Ok........................
.................
....
.

Do you even know what you're trying to convince people of anymore?

 

[OverLade]

It would be possible to prove that MK vs characters x/y/z are impossible matchups within the realms of normal human reaction speed (minus outliers) using frame/hitbox/range data. Anyone care to volunteer?

 

[CRASHiC]

Didn't Fiction already do that a while ago?

 

[SwastikaPyle]

I don't see any of this 'argument' back and forth here.

I see the pro-ban side with charts and numbers and statistics and tourney representation numbers, not to mention the majority popular vote

then I see a bunch of MK mains entering the topic and calling the pro ban side a bunch of whiny *******s

but a lot of people apparently think these two arguments are legitimately equal .

 

[DMG]

Fiction argued that in a different way. Framewise and Hitboxwise I can go and tell you who could/could not reasonably beat MK, but it would take awhile if doing multiple characters.

 

[Espy Rose]

but a lot of people apparently think these two arguments are legitimately equal .

It's because a lot of the stronger-arguments from the anti-ban side have been buried underneath page after page of old, debunked arguments that keep coming back somehow.

 

[iceman48]

It would be possible to prove that MK vs characters x/y/z are impossible matchups within the realms of normal human reaction speed (minus outliers) using frame/hitbox/range data. Anyone care to volunteer?

DMG started one in this thread, if I'm not mistaken. Something about showing all of MK's options on Wario before he even jumps, or something like that.

Also, TommyG, if I had a wall of stats and multiple charts showing that green was the best color, and so many times better than any other color (which, incidentally, it is), then that argument would be a little different. Then your hypothetical argument would look a little like this:

Side 1: Green is the best color
Side 2: No, blue is the best color
Side 1: Here's a chart and statistical data, along with a poll that shows more than half of people prefer green, that proves green is the best color, not just at the top shade but every hue of green down to Seafoam
Side 2: (/closes eyes and puts hands over ears) NO NO NO NO NO NO

 

[Overswarm]

It's because a lot of the stronger-arguments from the anti-ban side have been buried underneath page after page of old, debunked arguments that keep coming back somehow.

What are the stronger ones?

I've looked through this thread twice now for anti-ban arguments and can't find any we haven't beaten to the point of victory (meaning Omni argues back repeatedly until he says "I GIVE UP IT IS TOO LONG")

 

[DMG]

What I provided earlier was a list of moves that MK had on Wario that were guaranteed to connect, assuming both parties executed their respective action/s on the same frame (wario jumping, MK attacking). What it showed was that just from a neutral frame standpoint, Wario is heavily disadvantaged framewise, against a plethora of attacks (even if you discount fairly useless ones like Jab or Usmash). Further more, I explained how even if Wario got safely into the air, that MK's moves out range and heavily outspeed even Wario's "bread and butter" moves. Then I showed how again, from a neutral frame standpoint, that MK's Grounded Shuttle Loop handles even Wario's most dangerous attack with invincibility.

I can provide such comparisons with other characters against MK as well. It would take me some time, but I could do it.

 

[CRASHiC]

I believe the strongest is that Brawl needs to set up a basis for banning things, and regardless of how it applies to Metaknight, its something that needs to be done anyway.

 

[Overswarm]

I believe the strongest is that Brawl needs to set up a basis for banning things, and regardless of how it applies to Metaknight, its something that needs to be done anyway.

If we banned Metaknight right this instance, the bar we've set with Metaknight has required more data and consistency in said data than I think anyone would ever have asked for.

 

[Tommy_G]

DMG started one in this thread, if I'm not mistaken. Something about showing all of MK's options on Wario before he even jumps, or something like that.

Also, TommyG, if I had a wall of stats and multiple charts showing that green was the best color, and so many times better than any other color (which, incidentally, it is), then that argument would be a little different. Then your hypothetical argument would look a little like this:

Side 1: Green is the best color
Side 2: No, blue is the best color
Side 1: Here's a chart and statistical data, along with a poll that shows more than half of people prefer green, that proves green is the best color, not just at the top shade but every hue of green down to Seafoam
Side 2: (/closes eyes and puts hands over ears) NO NO NO NO NO NO

All of those best color charts and data are made using cherry picked data and don't accurately represent the community as a whole. Especially since Green hasn't placed first in a tournament using a National Best Color Committee.

Majority preference doesn't make a color the best.


MK being banned isn't a subjective argument.(Someone's going to take that out of context.) The argument eventually ends up boiling down to a subjective argument which then restarts the cycle from point 1.

Pro-ban: Here's a chart displaying mk's dominance.
Anti-ban: Chart is biased and isn't fair to the whole community.

Anti-ban: MK hasn't won a national tournament in months
Pro-ban: Outliers
Anti-ban: How do you determine it?
Pro-ban: Standard Deviation and a Bell curve
Anti-ban: That's fine but they're not that much better than everyone.
Pro-ban: Yes they are
Anti-ban: No they're not

 

[Tien2500]

You cannot win a subjective argument and that's what it all ends up as. It's like arguing what's the best color, what's the best political party, or what's the correct religion.



I disagree. Not responding to a subjective argument allows it to die out.

Person 1: What's the best color?
Person 2: Green
Person 1: No, blue is.
Person 2: No, green is.
Person 1: No, blue is.
Person 2: Ok........................
.................
....
.

We don't know which political party is the best or will lead the country to the most success. So what we do is we let each side put forth their best argument as to why their party will lead more prosperity in the future then we let the people vote on which solution they think is the best.

If I were interested in choosing a religion I would gather as much information on both religions and then make the decision based on that.

All of those charts and data are made using cherry picked data and don't accurately represent the community as a whole.

Majority preference doesn't make a color the best.


MK being banned isn't a subjective argument.(Someone's going to take that out of context.) The argument eventually ends up boiling down to a subjective argument which then restarts the cycle from point 1.

Pro-ban: Here's a chart displaying mk's dominance.
Anti-ban: Chart is biased and isn't fair to the whole community.

Anti-ban: MK hasn't won a national tournament in months
Pro-ban: Outliers

Well you obviously won't be convinced you didn't read the data. How exactly is Crow's data cherry picked when he used ALL available tournament data?

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

All of those charts and data are made using cherry picked data and don't accurately represent the community as a whole.

Okay just a ****ing minute. Cherry picked data. So you want to do Ankoku's job now, do what he's been doing, only do it right? Be my guest. The data was taken direction from Ankoku's character ranking thread. If you want to show that it is cherry picked, be my guest, but this statement is pure bull**** until you prove it.

MK being banned isn't a subjective argument.(Someone's going to take that out of context.) The argument eventually ends up boiling down to a subjective argument which then restarts the cycle from point 1.

Pro-ban: Here's a chart displaying mk's dominance.
Anti-ban: Chart is biased and isn't fair to the whole community.

Anti-ban: MK hasn't won a national tournament in months
Pro-ban: Outliers

How is the chart biased? Also, when doing statistics, you normally remove the top and bottom 0.01%. AT LEAST. If you look at this chart, you see that the top diddy, top MK, and top snake are performing so high above the norm, it makes no sense to include them in trends.

 

[Overswarm]

All of those charts and data are made using cherry picked data and don't accurately represent the community as a whole.

Could you explain how this is the case?

Off the top of my head, currently we have used data from:


-MK's tournament results without M2K (to determine if it is MK or M2K that does that well)
-Snake's tournament results without Ally (to determine if it is Snake or Ally that does that well)
-Diddy's tournament results without ADHD (to determine if it is Diddy or ADHD that does that well)
-The top ranking MKs from the past 4 months having their points compared to the top ranking player of every other top tier character in the same time frame
-The top ranking MKs from the past 4 months having their points compared to the top ranking player of every other top tier character in the same time frame with the best of each character removed
-The top ranking MKs from the past 4 months (used to determine who they lost to to see if there was a character similarity or a large number of player-based defeats; there was not)
-the top 8 from every tournament with only 100+ players or more from the start of brawl
-the top 8 from every tournament with only 150+ players or more from the start of brawl
-the entire userbase over the past 6 months
-the entire userbase over the past 13 months



So if we ARE cherry picking, we're the best **** cherry pickers on the face of the planet.

Because that'd be impossible.

 

[iceman48]

All of those charts and data are made using cherry picked data and don't accurately represent the community as a whole.

Crow!'s charts takes every player of the top characters at every level (to a point) and puts them against each other on a chart. There's nothing cherry picked. It's not like he said "I'll only use this person and their character against this other person and their's." I think some of the arguments against it (not just you, don't worry) come from people not understanding the WoT and charts that the fellow posted.

 

[Crow!]

All of those charts and data are made using cherry picked data and don't accurately represent the community as a whole.

Majority preference doesn't make a color the best.

(Looks at how the few attempts so far of anti-ban to look like they had data were all examples of cherrypicking)

(Compares to the work on which pro-ban arguments are based, which indescriminately include all data available)

(Notices that, additionally, the two arguments presented conflict, one implicitly agreeing something is important and the next denying it)

... I'm confused now. I thought you were on the anti-ban side? Because you're doing a pretty good job of ridiculing anti-ban's "arguments."

Seriously, I pulled out the search function to check that I accurately remembered which side Tommy_G was on.

 

[•Col•]

Well you obviously won't be convinced you didn't read the data. How exactly is Crow's data cherry picked when he used ALL available tournament data?

^This. :/

 

[HeroMystic]

If you look at this chart, you see that the top diddy, top MK, and top snake are performing so high above the norm, it makes no sense to include them in trends.

I see where this is going.

Incoming "Get Better" arguments.

 

[OverLade]

What I provided earlier was a list of moves that MK had on Wario that were guaranteed to connect, assuming both parties executed their respective action/s on the same frame (wario jumping, MK attacking). What it showed was that just from a neutral frame standpoint, Wario is heavily disadvantaged framewise, against a plethora of attacks (even if you discount fairly useless ones like Jab or Usmash). Further more, I explained how even if Wario got safely into the air, that MK's moves out range and heavily outspeed even Wario's "bread and butter" moves. Then I showed how again, from a neutral frame standpoint, that MK's Grounded Shuttle Loop handles even Wario's most dangerous attack with invincibility.

I can provide such comparisons with other characters against MK as well. It would take me some time, but I could do it.

Yeah, after reading that is how I came up with the idea.

It would be extremely easy to show how matchups like marth/DK/etc are impossible as well just using frame data without factoring human interaction and technical ability.

Majority preference doesn't make a color the best.

It was a bad analogy. But if it was a decision of what color to paint a truck in the arctic, you could support using the color black with statistical data.

*Black absorbs the most sunlight*
*black is easiest to see from a distance*

We're trying to reach a decision here, not just to prove something.

 

[CRASHiC]

playing mk's dominance.
Anti-ban: Chart is biased and isn't fair to the whole community.

Then please do so to Crow's data. You can't simply say "Its not accurate" without providing reasons why. Omni provided some reasoning to why some of Overswarms data is invalid, but you have done nothing here and simply tried to make the unfounded case that because the debate is still going is a sign that Metaknight should not be banned. Now only did Crow's data use several different samples of players and several different methods to determine Metaknights dominance, but he provided rational reasoning involving the information he presented.

So, instead of making claims that discredit all information INCLUDING THOSE THAT HAVE NOT EVEN BEEN PRESENTED YET, discredit the current arguments presented and prove why they are cherry picked and bias.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I see where this is going.

Incoming "Get Better" arguments.

Well yes. The issue with "get better" is that getting to their level is just ridiculously unrealistic. It's been shown multiple times.

TBH, if there's any particular argument I have trouble breaking from anti-ban, it's this one. I just had a guy on AIM (snackattack) ask me and I was kinda stumped. I'd love it if someone from Pro-ban would explain it to me again.

 

[Tien2500]

Yeah, after reading that is how I came up with the idea.

It would be extremely easy to show how matchups like marth/DK/etc are impossible as well just using frame data without factoring human interaction and technical ability.


It was a bad analogy. But if it was a decision of what color to paint a truck in the arctic, you could support using the color black with statistical data.

*Black absorbs the most sunlight*
*black is easiest to see from a distance*

We're trying to reach a decision here, not just to prove something.

Painting the arctic black would cause it to absorb more heat and melt. It would also be detrimental to wildlife who had adapted to the white environment.

(Not trying to actually debate this. Just to show that color can be debated).

 

[Overswarm]

"Be as good as ADHD and Ally"

or

"Pick Metaknight"

is basically what it boils down to.

 

[solecalibur]

"Be as good as ADHD and Ally"

or

"Pick Metaknight"

is basically what it boils down to.

Also worth mentioning how far would they really go if it wasn't MK but I guess that can be said about some tiers but say you picked snake instead of MK in a MK dominant tounry you sure your gonna dominate still?

 

[BSP]

I see where this is going.

Incoming "Get Better" arguments.

Well, there's not much else anti ban can say. They're looking at solid and factual evidence here, and have yet to say anything to counter it (besides some fallacies)

 

[OverLade]

Painting the arctic black would cause it to absorb more heat and melt. It would also be detrimental to wildlife who had adapted to the white environment.

(Not trying to actually debate this. Just to show that color can be debated).

Lmfao Re-read what I wrote...epic misread on your part.

 

[Dark 3nergy]

I've run a circuit and have been one of three deciding people that have resulted in consistently large events in the midwest despite our natural disadvantage. We have 60 man locals.

I'm pushing for an MK ban and am one of several trying to make the game better for those that aren't profiting from it.... even though I'm one of them that is profiting from MK.

I've posted guides and write-ups galore on smashboards, am currently financing and running a BBR Custom Stage contest, am running at least 3 different smash-related projects for the community at any given time, give one-on-one lessons, post daily and attempt to contribute to the knowledge of the game as well as remove ignorance and stop ignorant posters from posting nonsense, and I even donate $10 of my own money to the highest placing local at any of my circuit events.

What have you done?

hi im OS a famous smash legend jsut look at my outstanding posting record all over Smash World Forums.

NOW LISTEN TO ME

 

[Zwarm]

hi im OS a famous smash legion jsut look at my outstanding posting record all over Smash World Forums.

NOW LISTEN TO ME

What a convincing counter argument!

I'm pretty sure people are listening to him because has worthwile things to say, and data to back it up. =/

 

[Overswarm]

hi im OS a famous smash legion jsut look at my outstanding posting record all over Smash World Forums.

NOW LISTEN TO ME

More like

"Sounds like you don't care about the community"


hi I'm OS here's my tome of contributions that will crush your skull with its weight


NOW STOP MAKING BLANKET STATEMENTS WITH NO BACKING

 

[Tien2500]

Lmfao Re-read what I wrote...epic misread on your part.

You know I was actually thinking when I posted that "What kind of ******* ****** would paint the arctic? Lol.

 

[Overswarm]

Marco Evaristti.




Anyway, moving on.


Are there any legitimate claims from Anti-ban left? I mean everything, even the opinion ones that no one can possibly prove to be "wrong" without an objective goal.

 

[Tommy_G]

Also worth mentioning how far would they really go if it wasn't MK but I guess that can be said about some tiers but say you picked snake instead of MK in a MK dominant tounry you sure your gonna dominate still?

Ally went MK and got *****.

Players always get substantially worse when they can't use their character that they've been putting all of their practice into.

It is bull**** how I called Crow and OS's data cherry picked. It is also bull**** how you called Omni's chart of average points per character when divided by players irrelevent.

It's also bull**** how M2K and all of the other MK mains put 2 years into making their character good only to have it banned because people can't get better.

We look at top players when evolving a metagame, not bottom, middle, or upper level players. Top players results say Diddy, Snake, and MK have been placing top at an even amount and if not even, then in Diddy's favor.

 

[OverLade]

Ally went MK and got *****.

Players always get substantially worse when they can't use their character that they've been putting all of their practice into.

It is bull**** how I called Crow and OS's data cherry picked. It is also bull**** how you called Omni's chart of average points per character when divided by players irrelevent.

It's also bull**** how M2K and all of the other MK mains put 2 years into making their character good only to have it banned because people can't get better.

Tommy you keep ignoring certain points and your counter arguement is based on the assumption that ANYONE can reach the level of Ally and ADHD.

They can't. People are born with limited potential. If everyone reached their full potential in smash not everyone would be the same skill level. You would see similar results, with the same people still winning. This is a normal distribution, just like you would see with human IQ...

 

[MarKO X]

But people HAVE been getting better.
From rank 31 to rank 1, the character that taking it all, is MK. Other mains have tried to close the gap, but that's about it.