Official Metaknight Discussion

[Dark 3nergy]

What a convincing counter argument!

I'm pretty sure people are listening to him because has worthwile things to say, and data to back it up. =/

im not always so sure of that sometimes, but what does a lowly poster like me know?

More like

"Sounds like you don't care about the community"


hi I'm OS here's my tome of contributions that will crush your skull with its weight


NOW STOP MAKING BLANKET STATEMENTS WITH NO BACKING

The point of the statement was to make fun of the way you announced your high and mighty self. Posting intelligently here is like asking a Senator in the US Senate what his opinion of a video game character is-- Laughable


Ok in all seriousness;

Trying to get MK banned, well its a work in progress, however you havent necessarily won the hearts and minds of all people with your riveting posting style and trolling through the means of mass quoting that poor kid. If your hell bent on getting him banned then get this thread more attention since you seem to be good at bringing attention to yourself!




As for my opinion on the matter? Well..its an opinion, but not of the high level caliber so, back to lurking~~~

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Ally went MK and got *****.

Players always get substantially worse when they can't use their character that they've been putting all of their practice into.

It is bull**** how I called Crow and OS's data cherry picked. It is also bull**** how you called Omni's chart of average points per character when divided by players irrelevent.

It's also bull**** how M2K and all of the other MK mains put 2 years into making their character good only to have it banned because people can't get better.

GTFO. If you're going to make an obvious stupid statement only because we did something arguably stupid (that we backed up!) a while back, then why the hell are you doing this?

Also, it's bull**** how we either have to be godlike players at the absolute top of gameplay or pick one character.

 

[Overswarm]

Ally went MK and got *****.

He went MK without tornado and won several tournaments and made it halfway through Pound 4's bracket before losing to Ksizzle with both his MK and Snake, then going through the loser's bracket until he lost to M2K with Snake.

Yes, he got *****. He tied one arm behind his back and did better with a newly picked up character than most people could do with two years of practice.

Just destroyed. He should be embarassed.

It is bull**** how I called Crow and OS's data cherry picked. It is also bull**** how you called Omni's chart of average points per character when divided by players irrelevent.

The very method he used determined the results. That is a no-no, so yes, they are irrelevant.

It's also bull**** how M2K and all of the other MK mains put 2 years into making their character good only to have it banned because people can't get better.

Pay attention. That's not what we're saying. Besides, if this is a viable reason to make a decision we can say it isn't fair to everyone who has dropped their main for MK.

 

[Tommy_G]

GTFO. If you're going to make an obvious stupid statement only because we did something arguably stupid (that we backed up!) a while back, then why the hell are you doing this?

Also, it's bull**** how we either have to be godlike players at the absolute top of gameplay or pick one character.

u mad?

MK hasn't won a national tournament in months.
People can get better. Anyone can reach the level of ADHD, Ally, and M2K if they practiced enough. (Turns into subjective argument)

They went MK because they couldn't evolve their characters metagame themselves. They had to pick a character with its metagame already evolved further than everyone else.

Get better.

This thread should be called "Official MK Pro-ban Social thread"

Edit:

He went MK without tornado and won several tournaments and made it halfway through Pound 4's bracket before losing to Ksizzle with both his MK and Snake, then going through the loser's bracket until he lost to M2K with Snake.

Yes, he got *****. He tied one arm behind his back and did better with a newly picked up character than most people could do with two years of practice.

Just destroyed. He should be embarassed.

Same thing would happen with MK mains not picking MK. They wouldn't be able to do as well with MK because of the practice in MK, but they'd still do ok because they're smart players.

 

[napZzz]

Q:Why doesn't anti ban ever argue data and other legitimate arguments pro ban puts up?

A:They cant win and would rather troll and tell everyone to get better.

 

[MarKO X]

u mad?

MK hasn't won a national tournament in months.
People can get better. Anyone can reach the level of ADHD, Ally, and M2K if they practiced enough. (Turns into subjective argument)

Get better.

Now tell me why that is not a cherry picked argument, but Crow's post is cherry picked data.

 

[BSP]

But people HAVE been getting better.
From rank 31 to rank 1, the character that taking it all, is MK. Other mains have tried to close the gap, but that's about it.

That's also because while we have to "get better", MKs get better too. I guess anti ban ignores this too.

GTFO. If you're going to make an obvious stupid statement only because we did something arguably stupid (that we backed up!) a while back, then why the hell are you doing this?

Also, it's bull**** how we either have to be godlike players at the absolute top of gameplay or pick one character.

Yes, it is crazy that we have to be the best of the best, or pick MK. I guess people don't understand that the top level is not the only part of this community.

Come on Anti ban.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

u mad?

MK hasn't won a national tournament in months.
People can get better. Anyone can reach the level of ADHD, Ally, and M2K if they practiced enough. (Turns into subjective argument)

They went MK because they couldn't evolve their characters metagame themselves. They had to pick a character with its metagame already evolved further than everyone else.

Get better.

Q:Why doesn't anti ban ever argue data and other legitimate arguments pro ban puts up?

A:They cant win and would rather troll and tell everyone to get better.

There ya go. Also, people CAN get better. But most won't. There's a reason we see them as outliers-they're THAT MUCH BETTER. The fact that Ally can win grand finals against Metaknights should be proof enough. There's more to this game than the top 0.0004%.

 

[CRASHiC]

MK hasn't won a national tournament in months.

Neither did Akuma in HD Remix. Your point?

 

[Tommy_G]

Neither did Akuma in HD Remix. Your point?

Not the same game. It's unrelated.

 

[iRJi]

lol... Crow is pro. GG

Also, people who are saying get better, you are forgetting the MK players are going to get better as well lol. When you break it down to the bare bone of it, it comes down to the characters in use.

Please, use a better excuse that does not make you look like a fool.

 

[Gnes]

Get better.

WAHAHAHA

Post like this make me want to go fully pro-ban...i need to reevaluate each positions arguments after this.

 

[Crow!]

It is bull**** how I called Crow and OS's data cherry picked.

Um, I agree that it was bull**** for you to call those things cherry picked? Glad to see we're finding common ground, I guess..

It is also bull**** how you called Omni's chart of average points per character when divided by players irrelevent.

It was Omni's bizarre choice of data to present that inspired my present research, actually. If you recall, I did actually manage to extract some stuff out of Omni's data, namely, the number of players at the selected cutoff for each character. The problem was that the averaging actually killed the real data; all I've done is presented the raw, unaltered form of Omni's data. Or at least, the data Omni claimed to present; I'm assuming he didn't make any errors.

Everything from Omni's list can be drawn from my charts too. It's just that with all the data available, the reality of the situation is much more obvious.

For anyone curious to the specifics of why the type of averaging Omni did makes the data that I've now presented in unaltered form harder to interpret, check this out:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=9481331#post9481331

We look at top players when evolving a metagame, not bottom, middle, or upper level players. Top players results say Diddy, Snake, and MK have been placing top at an even amount and if not even, then in Diddy's favor.

This is factually incorrect. The top MK mains are outperforming the top mains of Diddy and Snake. In fact, ADHD is the only Diddy for which it even makes sense to compare Diddy to Snake. After him, even Marth is better for a few ranks, but in general Diddy just falls into the rest of the pack.

Look again.

 

[Delvro]

More like

"Sounds like you don't care about the community"


hi I'm OS here's my tome of contributions that will crush your skull with its weight

http://www.wowitemcreator.com/view/363032/Tome_of_Contributions.html

 

[BSP]

Don't mess with Crow! unless you got some solid evidence...wait, this is anti ban, never mind.

 

[OverLade]

Hey Tommy, just because I love you doesn't mean you can ignore my posts...

Ally went MK and got *****.

Players always get substantially worse when they can't use their character that they've been putting all of their practice into.

It is bull**** how I called Crow and OS's data cherry picked. It is also bull**** how you called Omni's chart of average points per character when divided by players irrelevent.

It's also bull**** how M2K and all of the other MK mains put 2 years into making their character good only to have it banned because people can't get better.

Tommy you keep ignoring certain points and your counter arguement is based on the assumption that ANYONE can reach the level of Ally and ADHD.

They can't. People are born with limited potential. If everyone reached their full potential in smash not everyone would be the same skill level. You would see similar results, with the same people still winning. This is a normal distribution, just like you would see with human IQ...

 

[MarKO X]

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=9593800&postcount=6046

this one too.

 

[fkacyan]

I could respond to your long, thought-out post with one of equal length, Crow, but instead I'll just get to the heart of the matter.

You have shown that MK mains outperform non MK mains. This is all you have shown. You would like to imply that the non-MK mains would do as well as the MK mains if they were to switch.

Where is the evidence that the MK mains simply aren't just better than the rest of the players? And where is the evidence that the switch would make the other players as good?

There are my fundamental issues with your data. You convince me of those two points, I'm essentially pro-ban.

 

[napZzz]

Hey Tommy, just because I love you doesn't mean you can ignore my posts...

unfortunately, anti ban is best at ignoring the solid posts and points that pro ban makes, so its no use trying to do such a thing like getting someone to not ignore a valid point from pro ban.

 

[Mew2King]

i already understand that MK ***** mid and low level a lot more than snake at mid and low level because he's much easier to use. It's not the same at the higher level though

like just this weekend:

TKD's Fox beat Tyrant (best WC MK possibly 2nd best MK period) in 3 sets this weekend and won the tourney

Tyrant beat Havok (2nd best WC MK) with wario

Fatal's Snake beat Shadow this weekend and got 1st

Hrnut's Snake and Shaky's Ness ranked over Seibrik's MK (1st and 2nd seibrik got 3rd) this weekend.

DEHF's Falco took me to 14th game (10th game of GF) this weekend at TP4.

Judge used various characters to win Ohio tourney including jigglypuff, lucario in 4 sets, and a bunch others (he posted it somewhere in the results thread).

i honestly think you guys are overrating MK, at least at the top level he is not nearly as good comparatively

 

[Tien2500]

I could respond to your long, thought-out post with one of equal length, Crow, but instead I'll just get to the heart of the matter.

You have shown that MK mains outperform non MK mains. This is all you have shown. You would like to imply that the non-MK mains would do as well as the MK mains if they were to switch.

Where is the evidence that the MK mains simply aren't just better than the rest of the players? And where is the evidence that the switch would make the other players as good?

There are my fundamental issues with your data. You convince me of those two points, I'm essentially pro-ban.

Well if MK is outperforming every other main at every skill level there are two explanations.

A) MK is the determining factor.

or

B) Every MK player just happens to be better than every non-MK player.

Personally I find the first explanation far more likely. Why would we expect ALL MK mains to be so much better than everyone else?

 

[Omni]

So is pro-ban going to finalize their case into an organized and collected argument?

I've seen some posts with collected information and a lot of isolated arguments/graphs.

If pro-ban can finalize their case, I can start getting on a response.

 

[Sosuke]

People can get better.

now what

 

[Overswarm]

http://www.wowitemcreator.com/view/363032/Tome_of_Contributions.html

hahahahahahahaha

 

[Overswarm]

So is pro-ban going to finalize their case into an organized and collected argument?

I've seen some posts with collected information and a lot of isolated arguments/graphs.

If pro-ban can finalize their case, I can start getting on a response.

We have about a dozen individualized arguments, all of which you've ignored. Take your pick, we'll keep throwing them at you.

 

[iRJi]

now what

It took me a second to understand this, but I got it. Lol. xD

 

[OverLade]

Seibrik only used MK in one match vs Shaky, but didn't hear about TKD vs Tyrant. Is there a link to results anywhere? Can he also beat Havok and DSF with fox?

I could respond to your long, thought-out post with one of equal length, Crow, but instead I'll just get to the heart of the matter.

You have shown that MK mains outperform non MK mains. This is all you have shown. You would like to imply that the non-MK mains would do as well as the MK mains if they were to switch.

Where is the evidence that the MK mains simply aren't just better than the rest of the players? And where is the evidence that the switch would make the other players as good?

There are my fundamental issues with your data. You convince me of those two points, I'm essentially pro-ban.

Hint...there are lots of people who have the minds of top players who simply don't place because they don't use good enough characters.

People like Boss/Green Ace/Shaky/FoW place well because they're extremely smart players, if they used MK, they would be top MK players because they have the potential to be so. You can say there's no evidence but I don't need evidence because I KNOW this.

DEHF's Falco took me to 14th game (10th game of GF) this weekend at TP4.

You let him keep going back to BF which I'm sure he would agree is falcos best stage in the matchup (besides mabye FD which you probably banned anyway).

And you didn't take him to brinstar/cruise/frigate or anything -_-.

 

[Sosuke]

Oh wow, I forgot that most people use different skins then me and might not be able to see that picture well. >_>

http://i50.tinypic.com/6z28ee.jpg

 

[Mew2King]

I disagree the reason I let him go on battlefield is because it is MKs strongest neutral vs Falco and we had a mutual agreement for neither of us to pick stupid stages so we could have a fair intense battle. On youtube you can see where I 3 stocked SK on battlefield but barely lost a game on smashville. So, I decided to keep my advantage with battlefield instead of going FD, Smashville, or various other stages.

also redhalberd, Fow thinks ness is mid/high tier and thinks nothing is wrong with MK he even went and said that ness is a MK counter. I have not talked to Shaky or Green Ace before. Boss is extremely against the MK ban and thinks MK is just a really good character instead and has won MD/VA tourneys numerous times. MK does not dominate EC at all in any field. Candy is ranked first in MD/VA, and I never see MK win on EC it's always ADHD and Ally and Fatal winning on NE. For a character that supposedly is so good he should get banned, the best MK players lose with him a lot. I very very strongly disagree with him being nearly good enough to warrant a ban, or anything for that matter. I do think the rules should be changed slightly though. 9 minutes 30 ledge grabs and less gay stages on would make the game better for tournament play (especially since people say that it "rarely goes to time anyway" so it would hardly extend tourneys at all)

 

[etecoon]

People can get better. Anyone can reach the level of ADHD, Ally, and M2K if they practiced enough. (Turns into subjective argument)

no they can't

even if they could, why work your *** off to become an amazing snake or diddy when you could work your *** off to become an amazing MK? MK's still a much better character choice...

 

[*Tyson*]

hmmm nevermind, Red Halberd beat me to all my points.


Your good

 

[Humpy Thrashabout]

You can say there's no evidence but I don't need evidence because I KNOW this.

Please don't say this anymore. I agree with the pro-ban side and you made some other valid points, but this is not a smart thing to say.

 

[solecalibur]

Judge used various characters to win Ohio tourney including jigglypuff, lucario in 4 sets, and a bunch others (he posted it somewhere in the results thread).

Judge only used those characters in pools where EVERYONE got out
He only used Lucario in brackets (maybe twice)

 

[*Tyson*]

also redhalberd, Fow thinks ness is mid/high tier and thinks nothing is wrong with MK he even went and said that ness is a MK counter.

LMFAO......... So because Fow said it it is true???

Not even close Jason, Maybe because ZERO metaknights outside of maybe Overswarm ( from Smash64) and Dojo ( from me) know the match up. Ness gets ***** so hard its not even funny.

 

[solecalibur]

also redhalberd, Fow thinks ness is mid/high tier and thinks nothing is wrong with MK he even went and said that ness is a MK counter.

Just because you win a tounry doesn't mean their mid to high tier and counter the top character of play

See Iron Tagger


Edit - If they knew the MU as well this wouldn't be the case

 

[Mew2King]

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=9562840&postcount=19

that is what I was basing off of @ sole, + what judge told me on aim

Tyson please don't put words in my mouth like that. I am merely saying the best Ness strongly disagrees with all of this.

 

[MarKO X]

I disagree the reason I let him go on battlefield is because it is MKs strongest neutral vs Falco and we had a mutual agreement for neither of us to pick stupid stages so we could have a fair intense battle. On youtube you can see where I 3 stocked SK on battlefield but barely lost a game on smashville. So, I decided to keep my advantage with battlefield instead of going FD, Smashville, or various other stages.

Well, that's your problem. Honor =/= playing to win. Not our fault you didn't pick the stages that **** Falco. The fact is that they exist, they are pickable, and the fact that you didn't pick them made a difference, no?

also redhalberd, Fow thinks ness is mid/high tier and thinks nothing is wrong with MK he even went and said that ness is a MK counter.

tiers are tiers. everyone can have an opinion.
But Ness an MK counter? That's interesting, to say the least.

I have not talked to Shaky or Green Ace before. Boss is extremely against the MK ban and thinks MK is just a really good character instead and has won MD/VA tourneys numerous times. MK does not dominate EC at all in any field. Candy is ranked first in MD/VA, and I never see MK win on EC it's always ADHD and Ally and Fatal winning on NE. For a character that supposedly is so good he should get banned, the best MK players lose with him a lot.

And yet, Ankouku's chart shows MK with more top finishes than other characters... care to elaborate?

I very very strongly disagree with him being nearly good enough to warrant a ban, or anything for that matter. I do think the rules should be changed slightly though. 9 minutes 30 ledge grabs and less gay stages on would make the game better for tournament play (especially since people say that it "rarely goes to time anyway" so it would hardly extend tourneys at all)

I hear that @ Pound 4 ppl were getting timed out all over the place.

I'm sorry, I just don't like inconsistency.

And less gay stages? How about less gay characters? That's equally as legit, right?

 

[solecalibur]

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=9562840&postcount=19

that is what I was basing off of @ sole, + what judge told me on aim

Tyson please don't put words in my mouth like that. I am merely saying the best Ness strongly disagrees with all of this.

Alright I'll give yeh credit for not knowing 100% but TYM was easy money for Judge you also have to realize (Blue rouge gave him a run for his money though)

Its like you going to a 100 man tounry and no one has ever played the game competitively before Im sure you can pick up some random character you've never played and completely destroy

 

[*Tyson*]

I did not mean it that way, it was more of a question. My apologies.

Anyway. He is "arguably" the best Ness, and i can assure you MK ***** Ness really hard. If you doubt it just ask Dojo, yall seem to talk about MU's and things of the sort.

 

[Overswarm]

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=9562840&postcount=19

that is what I was basing off of @ sole, + what judge told me on aim

Tyson please don't put words in my mouth like that. I am merely saying the best Ness strongly disagrees with all of this.

TYM? That's what you're basing it off of?

Judge was the only Metaknight in attendance

What are you trying to prove? XD