MK mains and anyone that gets hard countered by DDD or ice climbers should love meta knight : )
I was more anti-ban when I mained snake, don't want to see penguins everywhere!
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Official Metaknight Discussion
- Thread starter Hylian
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I was more anti-ban when I mained snake, don't want to see penguins everywhere!
Justblaze647
Smash Lord
Okay, I'm done now, and I'm going to sleep.
that's also his egotistical, revisionist opinion. and I don't think even he put it that way, he just said that top MK's have shared a lot of information, not necessarily all of it being his, and that he's personally trained some of themM2K himself has stated openly multiple times that he single handedly developed ALL of MK's metagame. So when you say that you "work hard," aren't you just emulating the techniques that he supposedly crafted? That's not exactly my definition of "skill."
Also@ your description of MK play, because that is virtually it in a nut shell, if you add in a few rising dairs and some dtilt > grabs.
he did invent scrooging though, good job M2K you're half the reason people want your character banned again
Kaffei
Smash Hero
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- Feb 8, 2008
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Why didn't you finish reading my response..
@etecoon: grats on ur 1337th post.
So basically you seem to think MK is good enough to be a significant problem to the metagame. However you don't think its fair to MK players who put in effort to him. I can understand that however I think it is more unfair to force anyone who does not choose to main MK to play at a disadvantage.
Overswarm
is laughing at you
- Joined
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- 21,181
Logical jerk, but yes.
Overswarm is a persona I've created that is in stark contrast to my actual real world self, and he suits my purposes well. Since the overlap is very slight, the people I care about know me for who I am IRL and the people I don't know me as Overswarm.
Because the standard business of the smash community, it is profitable for me to be hated rather than loved. Most people believe I'm a fairly low-level player when I was actually the best ROB to have existed ever with the possible exception of Holy and maybe HugS (but I doubt it) and have developed a fairly solid Metaknight in more recent times. Despite those truths, people think I suck because they don't like me and whoever they don't like must suck.
I've heard "OS, $5 money match" enough to where I could $1 money match an entire 32 man bracket and barely scratch the surface of my MM winnings. I've won over $20 from Sonic mains (thanks, Shugo! Best bad PR I ever got) and over $80 from Link mains (thank YOU Kyari and Legan!) since the beginning of Brawl. It's ridiculous and I love it.
The two most interesting things about all this is
1) No one will ever believe what I just wrote above because they only know my persona; from my persona, the above text is merely a cocky, self-serving description fueled by arrogance and vanity not seen since the writing of Greek epics.
2) I don't charge for gas money and often buy food and snacks for people in my car / other tournament goers, so I don't profit a ridiculous amount from the money matches and (by now, at least) have lost more than I've won from MMs alone. That means I do this not for the money, but because I like making people dance like puppets on strings.
I'm waiting for someone to do a case study on me.
Kaffei
Smash Hero
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That is what I'm saying. I just do not like the idea of banning MK, especially when there is actually more than just 1 viable character.
@OS: If you put it that way you don't seem like you actually care about the community..
Lol. Get over yourself.
Exceladon City
Smash Hero
Well you're about to win 3 more dollars from a Sonic main come March.
Well that's what OS was trying to get at. If you take ADHD, M2K, and Ally out of the equation (because they're good enough that their results are more of a reflection on their skill than MK's abilities) then MK players really are dominating the game to the point where he is (as Crow's data shows) twice as viable as Snake, which is a pretty big gap. And even if you include M2K, Ally, and ADHD, then there are only 3 truly viable characters in a cast of 36.
Justblaze647
Smash Lord
One more thing...
o_O
Nope, wrong.
Edit:
We're working on it, Omni and I.
o_O
M2K didn't invent planking. Or it would be M2king.M2K himself has stated openly multiple times that he single handedly developed ALL of MK's metagame. So when you say that you "work hard," aren't you just emulating the techniques that he supposedly crafted? That's not exactly my definition of "skill."
Also
Overswarm
is laughing at you
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Kaffei
Smash Hero
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If people only look at who's viable and play characters strictly based on that then the soul of this community is poop..
Overswarm
is laughing at you
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I've run a circuit and have been one of three deciding people that have resulted in consistently large events in the midwest despite our natural disadvantage. We have 60 man locals.
I'm pushing for an MK ban and am one of several trying to make the game better for those that aren't profiting from it.... even though I'm one of them that is profiting from MK.
I've posted guides and write-ups galore on smashboards, am currently financing and running a BBR Custom Stage contest, am running at least 3 different smash-related projects for the community at any given time, give one-on-one lessons, post daily and attempt to contribute to the knowledge of the game as well as remove ignorance and stop ignorant posters from posting nonsense, and I even donate $10 of my own money to the highest placing local at any of my circuit events.
What have you done?
Kaffei
Smash Hero
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Nothing Smash related, but that wasn't what I was trying to get at..
You keep mentioning profit, what do you mean by that specifically?
ill come back tmrw cus it's way too late.
Overswarm
is laughing at you
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gb-j_OuNZws
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BIct3v-AX04
Yes. I am the original gay.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSNqnR9XQlE
^rare footage of Overswarm!
There are some people who fight the good fight and perform well with low tier characters. But are you going to devote the time, money, and energy involved in playing at a high level and traveling for tournaments if you're playing a character with next to no chance of placing well?
a large part of it is because of me =/= EVERYTHING was me
he phrased it differently
may have missed it during one of the many times I got bored and looked at a different tab quickly, but I saw no scrooging. quality circle camping anyway : )
Exceladon City
Smash Hero
Ya boy's name ain't Shugo, I'm sure I'd do okay against OS but I blow it in MMs regularly.
Overswarm
is laughing at you
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Exceladon City
Smash Hero
I'm stating a fact, 1) I'm out of practice as I have no wireless signals strong enough for my wii to detect. So, I don't play much/if at all. 2) I blow it in MMs something serious. 3) This is off topic, not looking for an infraction.needs moar confidence.
at this rate, just skip the match and write him a check.
yes. for $3.
Still hoping someone responds to this from anti-ban.Here we go.
My raw results are here: LINK
Feel free to peruse that, try to reproduce my results if you want, and most importantly, if you want this sort of ranking set up for your own character so you see who's who within your main, you can find all that info here.
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PURPOSE
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The main idea here is to determine the skill distribution among characters. This should give, as objectively as is possible, a display of which characters are "popular" at various skill levels.
If a character is simply better than another, one would expect the shape of these curves to be the same, but one curve to be higher than another at any given rank, vertically in the plots I will make.
If a character is simply more popular than another, one would expect the curve at any particular skill level to stretch out to higher ranks, horizontally in the plots I will make.
Of course, the two ideas are difficult to separate. We will therefore search for convenient reference points in the data to compare one character to the next.
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METHODS
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I created a Python script (provided in the zip file above) to use Ankoku's tournament results .txt exports and used Ankoku's scoring system to determine how much each player scored in each tournament for 1. the past 13 months of complete data (January 2009 through January 2010), and 2. the past 6 months (August 2009 to January 2010) of complete data.
These players and results were binned into the characters they represented. Within each character, players with identical names are automatically combined, and for each of Meta Knight, Snake, Diddy Kong, Falco, and Marth player, I manually went through the lists to find names that appear to be of the same player and combined them.
I admit that I do not know the tournament scene as well as I might; it is possible that I failed to merge some results under separate player names that should have been together. I invite people to inspect my .xls files in the .zip above to verify I didn't miss anyone.
It should be noted that no integer number of months would exactly reproduce Ankoku's current score per character, but 6 months came pretty close. Either Ankoku's export wasn't a complete represenation of his data, or the method of treating odd cases was different from mine. I have no reason to believe the errors are systematic, so the results should not be biased either way.
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RESULTS
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Above, I show, for each of the past 6 and 13 months, how many points each player scored with a given character as a function of their rank within that character, at two different levels of zoom for each data set, for each of the five best overall performing characters.
(Note: I know I accidentally changed the rank scales between 13 to 6 months. It's probably still fair, though, since 13 months has more people in it than 6. If this really bugs someone, I'll go through the effort to fix it and reupload.)
Below, I show histograms: they show how many PEOPLE scored between X and Y points. At each successive bin, the point values are doubled. These histograms should be better at displaying how the tournament scecne looks for the medium-low skill levels.
Fun fact:
In the past 6 months, Ally is the 9th highest ranked Meta Knight. (Overswarm is 10th).
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ANALYSIS AND CONCLUSIONS
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At this point this report becomes slightly more subjective.
Looking at the top few spots, it is obvious that the top player of each of Meta Knight, Snake, and Diddy Kong are outliers and do not fit their characters' overall trends.
For Diddy, Marth, and Falco, except for the top 3 players, those characters appear to be farily close in tournament performance from one to the next, though it appears Falco wasn't as good a year ago as he has been in the past half year. Snake has been better than those three, but the degree by which Meta Knight is better than Snake at all ranks is much higher than the amount by which Snake is better than the others.
This much could have been guessed just by Ankoku's summed data in his ranking list, but this does show that Meta Knight isn't worse than other character(s), in which case his high overall performance would require a very, very long "plateau" at a medium-high skill level, much longer than for Snake, to make up for the point difference observed.
As for popularity versus character goodness, first let us look at the 13 month data again.
There is a "kink" at around rank 6 for both Meta Knight and Snake, indicating the rank at which the players drop off from being high level players to being the next level down, indicating equal popularity. Throughout this zone, each MK player scored more than 2x as many points as each Snake. At 13 months, the rest of the data is pretty smooth and does not lend itself well to differentiating between skill and popularity; suffice it to say that MK's dominance does not disappear at any level, although some of the other characters do cross each other from rank to rank.
In the 6 month data, there are two usable kinks in Snake's data, and one in Meta Knight's data. For high level play, MK is about 2x better a character than Snake and slightly more popular among players at that level. It is not immediately obvious where to link up the second kink, but the two extremes of justifiable locations both say that MK is more popular, and differ in saying whether at medium-high level of play MK continues to be a 2x better a character at 1.5x the popularity or if instead MK is 3x as popular as Snake at that level.
Without a specific reason to believe that the selection of Snake or MK changes greatly between high and medium-high play, I'm inclined to believe that MK simply continues to be slightly more popular but 2x as good as Snake, and 3-5x as good as other characters.
Looking at the tails of the rank plots, it is clear that the amount by which MK has been outperforming other characters at ranks up to 27 or so has increased dramatically between 13 months ago and 6 months ago. For the next 10 ranks it's less pronounced, then it becomes roughly equivalent to the 13 months ago level.
Now let us compare the 13 month and 6 month histograms. The amount by which MK is more popular than other characters at lower levels doesn't appear to have changed much, but at medium and medium-high levels of play it does; his increased level of dominance appears to come primarily from there.
A side note: there are a lot more players in the 13 month data than in the 6 month data; a bit less than half as many, it appears. This would be consistent with both the following theories:
1. At every month, the set of players that make it to the top 8s in some tourney is selected in such a way that the players who have earned points in previous months are preferred NOT to hog the same spots again, so that the total number of unique players is linear in time.
2. The number of competitive players (that is, those who play brawl and actually have a shot at getting top 8 or better) has gone down by more than 50% in the past 13 months.
The first theory is obviously wrong. I can't prove or disprove the second with the data I have right now, but it is clear that the competitive Brawl community has been shrinking by some amount.
So, how much better is MK than other top characters? Let me finish with one more graph.
omni said he'd get to it in a month or so <_<
Exceladon City
Smash Hero
That evidence is so hard, it would leave anti-ban bleeding in a parking lot.
Please stop quoting the entire thing if you are not going to repsond to it yourself. It's just annoying. Also get with the Meta discussion, this isn't the "talk about OS" thread. If there's nothing to discus because the anti-bans haven't posted yet, then just don't post until they do.
People who still say ICs and wario do well against MK are stupid. On paper they might do all right but in tournament experience they get *****.
Dojoe vs DMG
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jozNpZhp9o
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yOBLRRs_dhE&feature=related
And @ DMG, if you believe you could have played "better" in this matches, do you believe within your human ability to play this game that you actually could've won given how well he knows the matchup?
Dojoe vs DMG
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jozNpZhp9o
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yOBLRRs_dhE&feature=related
And @ DMG, if you believe you could have played "better" in this matches, do you believe within your human ability to play this game that you actually could've won given how well he knows the matchup?
Don't ignore my post and insinuate that anti-ban is doing anything.
I have told pro-ban to complete their argument since it seems to still be in the working. No one else has volunteered to respond to Overswarm and Co.'s series of Harry Potter books so I will do so once they complete it. Regardless, someone's going to find something to insult me with or looking for a reason to complain. It's fine; very good PR tactic that puts me in the negative limelight but that's what figurehead representatives have to deal with.
You may continue to debate about MK in here, but anti-ban isn't obligated to give the community a play-by-play action. Get over yourselves for those of you who believe you deserve it.
I have told pro-ban to complete their argument since it seems to still be in the working. No one else has volunteered to respond to Overswarm and Co.'s series of Harry Potter books so I will do so once they complete it. Regardless, someone's going to find something to insult me with or looking for a reason to complain. It's fine; very good PR tactic that puts me in the negative limelight but that's what figurehead representatives have to deal with.
You may continue to debate about MK in here, but anti-ban isn't obligated to give the community a play-by-play action. Get over yourselves for those of you who believe you deserve it.
OK, maybe I'm the only person who's realized this, but all Crow's post does is rehash data we have already looked at in yet another form.
i.e. more top players play MK than other characters.
I'm not really in the mood to respond or bug others to respond to it because it's not really anything new.
i.e. more top players play MK than other characters.
I'm not really in the mood to respond or bug others to respond to it because it's not really anything new.
SnackAttack
Smash Champion
Guys, guys, MK.......shouldn't be touched AT ALL.
I think we should all learn how to beat him.
I think we should all learn how to beat him.
Master Raven
Smash Master
lol ok so you're saying that M2K, Dojo, Tyrant, Ksizzle, Redhalberd etc. are unskilled players?
•Col•
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Nov 19, 2007
- Messages
- 2,450
No, he's saying they don't work hard.
Crow!
Smash Lord
I'm trying to figure out Omni's logic here, but if I keep "Omni's logic on who needs to do what is correct" as a core assumption I'm not coming up with anything.
If there is a single outstanding argument for the banning of MK to which there IS no good response, MK needs to be banned. Almost by definition.
Maybe an analogy would help? Anti-ban in general is defending MK, like a goalie. The offense doesn't need to group all their attacks on MK into one convenient package before the goalies respond; if any individual attack comes through unanswered, the offense wins. It doesn't even matter whether the offense is truly acting as a team; if some random dude who never went to practice waltzes in and shoots, you still need to defend against it.
Now, things are a bit easier for you than for a goalie because in logic, one defense protects from multiple instances of the SAME attack, but the point is that there only needs to be ONE correct way to argue for something for it to be conclusively shown to be true. And OS or whoever doesn't need to give any sort of seal of approval, some random low tier main who's never made it out of pools can do it and it's just as good. If the team captain comes in later and decides to make a similar attack again but even better, then you get to field that one too. And the next one. Until either pro-ban runs out of ammo or you get something you don't defend in a timely manner.
So yes, a play-by-play is necessary even if we don't choose to make a summary post. It sounds like OS might be eager to put something together for you guys anyway, but don't go around declaring that anti-ban is invincible to individual pieces of logic just because not all of them have been grouped into one convenient place.
Heck, if you guys really just want the whole argument in one place, we could copy-paste all our walls of text and data and stuff into one fifty-page-or-whatever-it-would-be document. Either way, you'd STILL have to respond to it ALL to keep MK safe from a logical viewpoint.
tl;dr version:
With unanswered claims from pro-ban at large, if both sides stall, pro-ban wins by default.
Your move.
If there is a single outstanding argument for the banning of MK to which there IS no good response, MK needs to be banned. Almost by definition.
Maybe an analogy would help? Anti-ban in general is defending MK, like a goalie. The offense doesn't need to group all their attacks on MK into one convenient package before the goalies respond; if any individual attack comes through unanswered, the offense wins. It doesn't even matter whether the offense is truly acting as a team; if some random dude who never went to practice waltzes in and shoots, you still need to defend against it.
Now, things are a bit easier for you than for a goalie because in logic, one defense protects from multiple instances of the SAME attack, but the point is that there only needs to be ONE correct way to argue for something for it to be conclusively shown to be true. And OS or whoever doesn't need to give any sort of seal of approval, some random low tier main who's never made it out of pools can do it and it's just as good. If the team captain comes in later and decides to make a similar attack again but even better, then you get to field that one too. And the next one. Until either pro-ban runs out of ammo or you get something you don't defend in a timely manner.
So yes, a play-by-play is necessary even if we don't choose to make a summary post. It sounds like OS might be eager to put something together for you guys anyway, but don't go around declaring that anti-ban is invincible to individual pieces of logic just because not all of them have been grouped into one convenient place.
Heck, if you guys really just want the whole argument in one place, we could copy-paste all our walls of text and data and stuff into one fifty-page-or-whatever-it-would-be document. Either way, you'd STILL have to respond to it ALL to keep MK safe from a logical viewpoint.
tl;dr version:
With unanswered claims from pro-ban at large, if both sides stall, pro-ban wins by default.
Your move.
Budget Player Cadet_
Smash Hero
Hmm... Where have I seen this before... Hmm........Tatsunoko vs Capcom ftw. It's best to balance a game by making a game where every character is broken but it's still fun.
Okay. Now prove it.
Um, no. Big difference between all 50:50 and mostly 60:40.
Marth and ROB are completely made nonviable by MK. Arguably half of C-tier.
Well when you open your mouth without knowing something and spew **** all over, someone's gonna have to clean it up, along with putting you in the toilet.
THIS THIS THIS
Hmm... How about you read the ****ing thread, where exactly this attitude has been covered X million times?
EDIT: CROW, **** IS ILLEGAL. STOP MAKING THEM SO BUTTHURT.
Delvro
Smash Ace
Did you not bother to read the data AT ALL?
It accounts for popularity by taking the X ranked players of a character and comparing it with others of the same rank. And guess what? Metaknight dominates at high level play. Metaknight dominates at mid-high level play. Metaknight dominates at mid level play.
How on earth can you be ok with the fact that (according to Crow's last graph) MK places 14 times better than Marth, 10 times better than Falco, 7 times better than Diddy, and 3 times better than Snake?
SnackAttack
Smash Champion
Now, tell me the response to this "attitude".
I'm not gonna read through this entire thread, sorry.
People need to step it up. :D
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