Blistering Speed
Smash Champion
Side B is too quick with too little landing lag for it to be a "bad" recovery relatively. Honestly, the vast majority of characters in this game now have bad recoveries now because of how advanced edgeguarding now is.
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Dark Hart
Rejected by Azua
Roy has like... the worst recovery in the game lol minues Ness of course.
With good DI, Falco's recovery can be very tricky with all of the side-b tricks.
With good DI, Falco's recovery can be very tricky with all of the side-b tricks.
JPOBS
Smash Hero
you're crazy.
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
I think Ness easily has a better recovery than Roy.
KAOSTAR
the Ascended One
falco lacks distance. but has good options.
his recovery is coo.
ive seen ness recovery like 9 times ever. thats probably close to the summation of ness recoveries. I was fortunate enough to witness such a rare occurrence.
his recovery is coo.
ive seen ness recovery like 9 times ever. thats probably close to the summation of ness recoveries. I was fortunate enough to witness such a rare occurrence.
Cactuarz
Smash Ace
G&W has a great recovery... until fox starts refreshing invincibility frames and shines you out of it. Seriously, nothing can be done haha. And sheik can drop down nair through it too, other than those G&W isn't bad at recovery at all provided you can DI
JPOBS
Smash Hero
GaW just has loads of vertical distance.
People need to realize that like 90% of recoveries are completely thwarted by ledgehog->invincible aerial.
having the ability to mixup is deathly important.
People need to realize that like 90% of recoveries are completely thwarted by ledgehog->invincible aerial.
having the ability to mixup is deathly important.
INSANE CARZY GUY
Banned via Warnings
you'd be surprised bait is all you need. as pichu getting around sheik's bair isn't very easy but I like to mix up countless ways once they figure out my tricks I go up one like i'm going use a plaform or something and then go down to sweetspot and then I gimp them no matter what they do at that point.
falcon's up-b mix up bait game is mad good sometimes.
falcon's up-b mix up bait game is mad good sometimes.
At least I'm not carzy.
Pi
Smash Hero
it's pretty astounding at how balanced this game has turned out to be, through sheer luck it seems too
like what kind of **** *** annoying broken character would falco be if they didn't nerf his recovery from foxes, or even made his UB burn
and everyone's weight, and ability to be combo'd. Sheik and marth's laggy *** UB's
it's all really astounding, almost too good to be true
then you look at jiggs and you relize the dev's are human
like what kind of **** *** annoying broken character would falco be if they didn't nerf his recovery from foxes, or even made his UB burn
and everyone's weight, and ability to be combo'd. Sheik and marth's laggy *** UB's
it's all really astounding, almost too good to be true
then you look at jiggs and you relize the dev's are human
Stevo
Smash Champion
unfit to win a tourney single handedly
I'm not sure about unfit for tourney play
I'm not sure about unfit for tourney play
Dark Hart
Rejected by Azua
So many more characters are tourney viable then most people think, but we don't have a Taj, Axe, or Cosmo for every mid/low/bottom tier
TheGoat
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Aug 30, 2010
- Messages
- 584
First sentence I agree, but about the second sentence-I know the game isn't anywhere near perfectly balanced, but how many games with this much variety do you see being "balanced"? I think Nintendo did a pretty good job (even though it was unintentional).
Oh and imagine if fox had kept his stunning lasers from ssb64. GG
Merkuri
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Apr 1, 2010
- Messages
- 1,860
Super Street Fighter 4 has roughly twice the amount of characters as Melee and it's about as balanced as fighting games get.
You cannot look at character like Pichu and then look at Fox and think Nintendo tried in the least bit to balance this game.
Dragoon Fighter
Smash Lord
- Joined
- May 23, 2010
- Messages
- 1,915
No, but then again smash is not a fighting game. (Joking)
CloneHat
Smash Champion
SSFIV would theoretically be a lot easier to balance.
In Smash, move speed, range, and other properties are only the tip of the iceberg; the game revolves so heavily on physics and movement.
In Smash, move speed, range, and other properties are only the tip of the iceberg; the game revolves so heavily on physics and movement.
Fixed. /10
TheManaLord
Smash Hero
This game is perfectly balanced for 4 player FFA with items on medium and the only goal is FUN not to win.
I like how that's all you do in this thread.
TheGoat
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Aug 30, 2010
- Messages
- 584
That's just one example-also, it was released just this year, a lot of the metagame has yet to develop. SSBM has a good number of upper tier characters that can play competitively. Unfortunately, most of the bottom tier characters pretty much don't stand a chance against them. There isn't any single character or tactic that always gibs people, otherwise we'd see it over and over again in tournament play.
Also, I never stated that Nintendo tried to balance the game, I merely said it happened by accident. Nintendo did a garbage job at balanced the characters, they have never looked into the Smash Bros community to see tournament play to perhaps stop for a minute to think "hey, maybe we can improve this type of dedicated play by attempting to balance characters a bit".
Especially in Brawl. Couldn't they look at Melee's huge competitive scene and at least weed out bottom tier? I think most video games aren't getting sufficient testing before release these days. But that's another story.
fixed.
Since my fix is off topic,
melee is such a dead game :/
I don't see why I a tier list matters anymore.
In fact. How significant a difference is there between:
(falco-fox-puff-peach-sheik-marth)
I suppose, to expand on the question I'll ask
Do any of those characters deserve to be separated in either direction(read: up or down)?
The following section of the list as I see it would be something along the lines of
(climbers-doc-ganon-pikachu and potentially samus.)
Does anyone even remember what Bum did with Donkey Kong anymore??
Either the tier list is about tourney results or potential. I don't think you can really mix the two and come up with a consistent list.
I suppose you can imagine it in a way where you would decide, prior to a tournament WHAT match ups do you need to be prepared for.
I'm fairly certain M2 or Pika is not on your list. *looks @ AZ*
Either way. A new Tier list should certainly see Puff @ the top of the list, since major competition sees Puff in the finals almost(?) always.
K, I'm outta gas.
JPOBS
Smash Hero
Brookman, your "serious post" didnt even contain anything worthwhile.
Except to point out that as it is now, our tier list is fundamentally flawed. We try to mix results and theory, which ends up w/ a highly subjective, theoretical list.
A second good point from his post is that niggling over placement w/i a tier is generally a waste of breath, as the gap between characters is either so great there needs to be another tier, or so minor that they are roughly the same, and the difference between them is primarily subjective.
While his post doesn't add anything really, it does point out things that should lead to the conclusion that most of this debate (if not all of it) is irrelevant until we have an actual system for determining tier placement.
A second good point from his post is that niggling over placement w/i a tier is generally a waste of breath, as the gap between characters is either so great there needs to be another tier, or so minor that they are roughly the same, and the difference between them is primarily subjective.
While his post doesn't add anything really, it does point out things that should lead to the conclusion that most of this debate (if not all of it) is irrelevant until we have an actual system for determining tier placement.
JPOBS
Smash Hero
the discussion may be irrelevent, but that doesnt mean people interested shouldnt give their input, or shouldnt discuss it.
it may be a "waste of breath" to discuss exact tier placings without a "system", but its no worse than constantly trolling
it may be a "waste of breath" to discuss exact tier placings without a "system", but its no worse than constantly trolling
SDC
Smash Lord
KAOSTAR
the Ascended One
in your words....scar didnt know the MU, bowser can never be good. He will never win a match vs a good player if they know the MU.... never.
Back around pound I showed that vid to my friend who was in WKs pool lol. he also plays falcon, I told him it was over.
Lordydennek
Smash Ace
lol i think its funny that bookman thinks this is a dead game.
I think we should have a tier list just for the sake of a tier list. theyre fun to discuss and theorize about. it keeps things organized. also it makes it all the cooler when a mewtwo, supposedly a **** character, comes out and beasts against high tier chars. or a pika, or whatever. it's impressive. due to the tier list.
its like ppl dont consider anything under ics to even be "viable" chars...then they get ****ed up in tournies by them cuz they have no clue what to do. sure most low tiers wont win a tourny. but do they have too?? the fact that taj almost beat armada proves to me that nothing is impossible in this game.
so why not keep theorizing and making new tier lists...whats the downside???
I think we should have a tier list just for the sake of a tier list. theyre fun to discuss and theorize about. it keeps things organized. also it makes it all the cooler when a mewtwo, supposedly a **** character, comes out and beasts against high tier chars. or a pika, or whatever. it's impressive. due to the tier list.
its like ppl dont consider anything under ics to even be "viable" chars...then they get ****ed up in tournies by them cuz they have no clue what to do. sure most low tiers wont win a tourny. but do they have too?? the fact that taj almost beat armada proves to me that nothing is impossible in this game.
so why not keep theorizing and making new tier lists...whats the downside???
Scar
#HarveyDent
lol didn't i win that set
KAOSTAR
the Ascended One
lol this isn't about you scar.
its about sdc and his hate of low tier characters ever accomplishing anything....ever.
but yea nice job lol.
INSANE CARZY GUY
Banned via Warnings
he's just a bottom tier hater. if you believe you can win unless they are movement cammping you
The Good Doctor
Smash Champion
Because they won't ever win a national....
It's because they suck compared to you know, good characters.
KAOSTAR
the Ascended One
when was the last time fox, falco, marth, sheik won one lol?
you don't have to win to be "usable".
making it into bracket is pretty legit.
you don't have to win to be "usable".
making it into bracket is pretty legit.
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2008
- Messages
- 26,550
fox, falco, sheik, and jigglypuff all win/top3 at national tourneys. this is because they're top tier.
the tier list in the first post of this thread is irrelevant, in case one of you guys wanted to go "but stronbad teh first post (2008) sez marf is better than puff"
the tier list in the first post of this thread is irrelevant, in case one of you guys wanted to go "but stronbad teh first post (2008) sez marf is better than puff"
INSANE CARZY GUY
Banned via Warnings
how I feel about playing as a bottom tier. ifyou fight a really gay sheik who needles everything spams bair/grabs and other gayness i'll give you pity only if you have some outside johns like oh my arm is broken or oh I need to warmup.
really no pity unless it's impossible for you to ever land a hit or avoid one like fox movement camping someone on KJ64 or something unless your peach you get no pity.
really if a pichu keeps getting chain thrown by sheik's good maybe he'll learn to avoid grabs. why did he let sheik land a grab? if he avoided that grabhe could've gone a combo or something. you f***ed up and you need to work on your reads, mindgames, combos, edge gaurd, space control. You can easily ask for help. you should learn the match-up you know tough s*** to you if you get grabbed same for fighting puff as fox.
People john to much about who they play as, which only if they are getting movement camped shouldn't john about there charcter. I've rarly seen the charcter make the mistake(roy useing foam to make his sword), no one is broken easy, in fact your foe helps you in many ways they will make a few mistakes even if they are mango and they will nomrally have patterns or some kind.
really no pity unless it's impossible for you to ever land a hit or avoid one like fox movement camping someone on KJ64 or something unless your peach you get no pity.
really if a pichu keeps getting chain thrown by sheik's good maybe he'll learn to avoid grabs. why did he let sheik land a grab? if he avoided that grabhe could've gone a combo or something. you f***ed up and you need to work on your reads, mindgames, combos, edge gaurd, space control. You can easily ask for help. you should learn the match-up you know tough s*** to you if you get grabbed same for fighting puff as fox.
People john to much about who they play as, which only if they are getting movement camped shouldn't john about there charcter. I've rarly seen the charcter make the mistake(roy useing foam to make his sword), no one is broken easy, in fact your foe helps you in many ways they will make a few mistakes even if they are mango and they will nomrally have patterns or some kind.
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