Official MBR Tier List

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

wrong

goggles pichu is better then pichu or pichu or pichu

hes atleast 3 full tiers higher then garbage tier

THIS is soooo true i've tested thiis out a number of times.

goggles=better air game=more **** combos/approach and junk

backpack=more wieght

red=ninja harder to grab

nude= less hits smae amount of grabs no one wants to hit a nudepichu. however red does better vs gannon than goggles the one match-up red ninja has over goggles.

 

[CloneHat]

nevermind10char

 

[The Good Doctor]

No, what I meant is that Street Fighter 4 is inherently limited in comparision to Smash.

A lot more characters are more viable than you're giving them credit for.

I love when people say this, yet 10 years of theory and results shut down any argument.
Axe got 5th with PIKACHU AND FALCO. My viable list is as follows.

Top/High Tier

If you want to stretch it out, you can include like, 2 from Middle Tier.

That's it, sorry to burst your bubble.

 

[Merkuri]

No, what I meant is that Street Fighter 4 is inherently limited in comparision to Smash.

A lot more characters are more viable than you're giving them credit for.

What? In what way? Are we talking about the same thing? How are more characters viable in Smash than in SSF4?

 

[KirbyKaze]

lol

Pikachu

What a funny character

 

[Cosmo!]

I love when people say this, yet 10 years of theory and results shut down any argument.
Axe got 5th with PIKACHU AND FALCO. My viable list is as follows.

Top/High Tier

If you want to stretch it out, you can include like, 2 from Middle Tier.

That's it, sorry to burst your bubble.

axe used pikachu for the most important matches he played all tournament. pikachu is a legit character

 

[St. Viers]

What .Marik means about sf series being more limited doesn't have to do directly w/ character viability. What he's saying is that sf is very linear fighting game--each character does almost the same thing in almost the same way--block strings, combos, mix-ups, etc. Because of that, going back to character viability, it makes it appear that more characters are viable--a good ryu player can, doing almost the same thing, use any of the other shotos (ken, whose a bit worse, or sakura/dan/gouken, who are noticeably lower on the tier list), and still do well. Also, the abundance of local sf tourneys also makes more characters look viable--much like really small melee/brawl tourneys do.

In melee, there are no real BnB things for all characters. Also, DI, and non-linear stages further adds to the complexity of the gameplay.

However, going by their matchup chart/tier-list, it is evident that in actuality, the balance to the game is not much greater than ours, paper wise--it's simply that the limitations of the game hide the true extent of character imbalance, while in melee, the lack of some of those limitations highlight, and sometimes even makes the imbalance look greater than it is.

 

[Republican0fHeaven]

I have a feeling that the longer ssf4 is out, the more likely the number of highly competitive characters will drop tier. Not drastically by any means, but a couple for sure.

It is hard to compare this with melee, a game that after almost 10 years is still evolving. AXE showing what pikachu could do is just one example. Perhaps if the number of people who have put time into advancing the game of fox falco and marth instead worked with middle or low tier characters . . . they would be more viable.

The sheer number of people who (seriously) try to main low tiers is extremely extremely extremely small compared to those with high tier. Much much different than in SSF4, a game that hasn't afforded much character evolution solely due to how new it is (but also its linearity)... not to mention nearly a decade of evolution exponential in comparison to low tiers

 

[KirbyKaze]

Look guys we have to accept that most of the low tier players are just bad and that's why those characters don't do well. I mean, like, if Pikachu can **** people, and if Mewtwo can **** people, and Zelda can **** people, and those characters are bad, I'm sure that there are more that can also do stuff.

I'm sure a bunch of them still have various superpowers that can be unlocked and unleashed upon the world.

It's pretty much true for a lot of the higher tier characters, too. Aside from M2K and Amsah, Sheiks don't place well much at all. And Sheik's a phenomenal character. The trouble is her players suck lol. Same with Fox. Why isn't he winning everything? Because most of the good people play other characters and it's hard for Jman to do everything. Don't know how or why it worked out that way, but it just did.

We have a limited amount of actually talented people who know their character with lots of experience playing this game. That's really all there is to it.

 

[KAOSTAR]

axe used pikachu for the most important matches he played all tournament. pikachu is a legit character

edit: lol just read thus and it sounds like im grillin you. but yea I agree witchu wright.


beat jman and shiz plus took a game off armada. wtf pikachu is legit.

I honestly don't know how you can act like his falco was doing all the work.

if aXe went pikachu in the falco round robin he woulda won lmao.

I also agree with kk.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

If no one ever played as fox very few people could waveshine or double laser and a lot of things would totally be unknown like shining out of marth's chain throw at 20% or to SDI out of upair.

people would smash more and be slower.

youu can see how it would make fox look really bad with people being able to do some of the basic stuff that makes him look amazing like wise look at yoshi fumi used to always have been the most techinal no one really went past the limit he set till vectorman. which wwwwwwwwwwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyyy more techinal.


also falcon very few players won'thave many long sexy combos that were discovered.

however there are some spots that LOOK like their metagame won't go any farther like bowser and kirby bowser is stuck up-Bing oos and kirby with bad camping. really it doesn't look like they have much or anything to expole on. however it's hard to say what you don't know maybe there is more left to find tactics, combos, whatever.

Some people feel like there's a lot to expolde on like ice cliberss, pichu, luigi and I think falco.

 

[machinegungeek]

--Delete--

 

[machinegungeek]

Lol dumb. I'm guessing you don't know much about fighting games, but there are some fighting games where pretty much the entire cast is viable to place well or even win tournaments. A great example would be SSF4; which is by leaps and bounds the most popular fighting game out there right now. The game is balanced and what actually counts is the players skills and not the characters they use. The characters you refer to as ''relevant'' are only ''relevant'' because the game is imbalanced. Please tell me you were trolling me because I'd rather not think you are this ignorant.

Also the idiocy that no one cares about lower tiers is completely wrong. Plenty people care about them, they were simply forced to chose other characters because the game is ****ed up and imbalanced. The fact that so much of the cast is referred to as ''Joke characters'' proves the game is unbalanced.

Lol at Merkuri comparing the balance of a 2001 game to a 2010 one. And how is SSF4 the wildly most popular fighting game? For better or worse, that's still Brawl by a country mile.

I can tell you're like some 14 year old who just discovered SF and is waving it's "hardcoreness" in everyone's face. You mentioned that hardcore fighting game fans aren't satisfied with only 8-10 viable characters. Yes, because the most successful competitive fighting game of all time, SSF2T had gobs of viable characters. Last I checked, there were, at max 8, with Boxer, Claw, Dhalsim, and O. Sagat being the clear top.

And how about other SF games like Alpha 3 (V-ism Ryu, Akuma, Sim rule all) and SF3:TS (Yun, Chun, and maybe Ken)? Those had the whole cast as viable characters.......

And how about the other current well-balanced game, Tekken 6? How balanced were it's prequels/other versions. Vanilla T6 was way unbalanced, T5 was Steve, Law, DJ, with some others (DR was starting to get balanced), T4 was just Jin with some Steve and Nina, TTT was Mishima **** and so on.

The point is, there have been a lot of "hardcore" fighting games with very limited viable character options that were/are still very playable and very popular at a competitive level.

It's only recently that many fighting games of gotten heavily balanced and that doesn't make older games any less balanced or HC (GG was balanced earlier, but that's a pretty small cast, at least initially).

Get ***** noob. Fighting games didn't begin with SSF4....

 

[Lovage]

Lol at Merkuri comparing the balance of a 2001 game to a 2010 one. And how is SSF4 the wildly most popular fighting game? For better or worse, that's still Brawl by a country mile.

I can tell you're like some 14 year old who just discovered SF and is waving it's "hardcoreness" in everyone's face. You mentioned that hardcore fighting game fans aren't satisfied with only 8-10 viable characters. Yes, because the most successful competitive fighting game of all time, SSF2T had gobs of viable characters. Last I checked, there were, at max 8, with Boxer, Claw, Dhalsim, and O. Sagat being the clear top.

And how about other SF games like Alpha 3 (V-ism Ryu, Akuma, Sim rule all) and SF3:TS (Yun, Chun, and maybe Ken)? Those had the whole cast as viable characters.......

And how about the other current well-balanced game, Tekken 6? How balanced were it's prequels/other versions. Vanilla T6 was way unbalanced, T5 was Steve, Law, DJ, with some others (DR was starting to get balanced), T4 was just Jin with some Steve and Nina, TTT was Mishima **** and so on.

The point is, there have been a lot of "hardcore" fighting games with very limited viable character options that were/are still very playable and very popular at a competitive level.

It's only recently that many fighting games of gotten heavily balanced and that doesn't make older games any less balanced or HC (GG was balanced earlier, but that's a pretty small cast, at least initially).

Get ***** noob. Fighting games didn't begin with SSF4....

LOL get **** on, absolutely *****

what a baller 3rd post

 

[Merkuri]

*SIGHS* arguing so early in the morning. I was hoping this point would be dropped cuz I don't care no more.

Lol at Merkuri comparing the balance of a 2001 game to a 2010 one. And how is SSF4 the wildly most popular fighting game? For better or worse, that's still Brawl by a country mile.

We must be thinking of two different kinds of popularity here. If you're talking about unit sales then Brawl wins(at least for now). But if we're talking about how people who playing this game competiitvely and travel to tournaments then SSF4 ***** the **** out of Brawl. You do realize that the largest SSF4 tournament had over 5 times(1700) entrants than the largest Brawl tournament(lol 303) right? Even in entrants for local tournaments SSF4 thranshes brawl, not to mention to the fact that SSF4 has more local tournaments than brawl does. In any relevant definition of popularity in regads to this topic SSF4 trounces Brawl. WTF are you talking about?

I can tell you're like some 14 year old who just discovered SF and is waving it's "hardcoreness" in everyone's face. You mentioned that hardcore fighting game fans aren't satisfied with only 8-10 viable characters. Yes, because the most successful competitive fighting game of all time, SSF2T had gobs of viable characters. Last I checked, there were, at max 8, with Boxer, Claw, Dhalsim, and O. Sagat being the clear top.

This is the same idiocy of before and I'm going to assume your entire post is abundant with it. You call SF2T the most popular fighting game of all time, but that is due more to the fact it has been out forever rather than the games own merit. Do you think SF2T is more popular than SSF4 now? Please tell me you're not that dumb, just go to srk and look at tourney entrance, hell even google and you'll learn something instead spewing this mindless non-sensical drivel you insist on arguing.

And how about other SF games like Alpha 3 (V-ism Ryu, Akuma, Sim rule all) and SF3:TS (Yun, Chun, and maybe Ken)? Those had the whole cast as viable characters.......

Stret Fighter 3 wasn't nearly as popular in it's inception as SF4 was. If my memory serves no SF3 tournament even broke 1000 entrants. SF4 pretty much revitalized the entire fighting community. SF3 in it's prime never had the amount of, local and regional, tournaments, tourney entrants, high payouts and Video game sponsers that SF4 did in it's first year of release. As for SF3 being broken that could explain why the community is almost dead and all of it's hardcore gamers has switched to SF4 or other games instead of sticking with the game that was very much booming 2 years ago. Hell even melee didn't get such a huge hit to it's fighting community when brawl came out.

The point is, there have been a lot of "hardcore" fighting games with very limited viable character options that were/are still very playable and very popular at a competitive level.

And my point is that SF4 is more popular(obviously it's more popular now, I'm speaking relatively) than those games are. You make it sound as if I was arguing melee hasn't been popular. Of course it has, I'm just saying that balance would do the game good. And perhaps if it were more balanced Brawl wouldn't be kicking it's *** so hard.

It's only recently that many fighting games of gotten heavily balanced and that doesn't make older games any less balanced or HC (GG was balanced earlier, but that's a pretty small cast, at least initially).

Get ***** noob. Fighting games didn't begin with SSF4....

Lol ******* I never claimed it did. And who cares if it's balance is a recent issue or not. I wasn't really bashing melee for being unbalanced, I'm just saying it's balance sucks and comparing it's balance to a game like SSF4 is laughable.

 

[KAOSTAR]

brawl.....? BALANCE....? METAKNIGHT ....snake. ummm lol.

come on now I was really trying to side with you until you said melee's potential downfall was balance while in reference to brawl.

melee is not completely one sided. like kk said, low tiers suck because they have no following. the best players aren't playing them. they seem to require more work to unlock their full potential. most of this would be pioneer work. **** like where no man has gone before.

melee absolutely ***** brawl. brawl is popular because its the 3rd game of a VERY successful series and its on the newest and best selling platform. it appeals to the masses and followers of the series. also things like online tournaments help draw in new members or keep interest of players on the younger side who can't travel.

imo melee is surprisingly balanced in the sense that characters are at least able to compete at top level. the ones we call garbage tier may be usable as well, just nobody wants to play em.

I remember when I started mewtwo was dead last and luigi was low tier everywhere but washington. when great players happen to choose lower ranked characters magic occurs.

mario pikachu mewtwo link puff luigi zelda are all better than people thought even 6 months ago. (maybe not luigi, he was discovered a while ago. link too.)

they just needed a good player to create synergy. low tiers just need a lil love.

 

[Fletch]

And perhaps if it were more balanced Brawl wouldn't be kicking it's *** so hard.

And perhaps if it were more balanced Brawl wouldn't be kicking it's *** so hard.

And perhaps if it were more balanced Brawl wouldn't be kicking it's *** so hard.

And perhaps if it were more balanced Brawl wouldn't be kicking it's *** so hard.

I agreed with a little bit of what you wrote, but I really can't believe you actually wrote this.

 

[The Good Doctor]

Yeah, I'm done agreeing with Merkuri on any topic after that....
sigh...

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

I can see why people think Merkuri is VBM.

 

[Merkuri]

brawl.....? BALANCE....? METAKNIGHT ....snake. ummm lol.

come on now I was really trying to side with you until you said melee's potential downfall was balance while in reference to brawl.

melee is not completely one sided. like kk said, low tiers suck because they have no following. the best players aren't playing them. they seem to require more work to unlock their full potential. most of this would be pioneer work. **** like where no man has gone before.

melee absolutely ***** brawl. brawl is popular because its the 3rd game of a VERY successful series and its on the newest and best selling platform. it appeals to the masses and followers of the series. also things like online tournaments help draw in new members or keep interest of players on the younger side who can't travel.

imo melee is surprisingly balanced in the sense that characters are at least able to compete at top level. the ones we call garbage tier may be usable as well, just nobody wants to play em.

I remember when I started mewtwo was dead last and luigi was low tier everywhere but washington. when great players happen to choose lower ranked characters magic occurs.

mario pikachu mewtwo link puff luigi zelda are all better than people thought even 6 months ago. (maybe not luigi, he was discovered a while ago. link too.)

they just needed a good player to create synergy. low tiers just need a lil love.

Um I wasn't arguing Brawl is more balanced. I was arguing melee would be more popular if it were more balanced and hence may be able to keep up with brawl. Brawl isn't significantly more balanced than melee.

 

[Stevo]

I personally think Pichu has a better chance in melee than Link or Falcon have in brawl, but that is just my opinion.

and about melee keeping up with brawl, we'll see if Brawl is still popular in 8 years.

 

[KAOSTAR]

Um I wasn't arguing Brawl is more balanced. I was arguing melee would be more popular if it were more balanced and hence may be able to keep up with brawl. Brawl isn't significantly more balanced than melee.

so you believe ppl don't play melee because they look at the tier list and are disgusted with the best character always winning national tourneys.

or are you making another very obvious argument such as if melee were better more people would play it.

sure its not completely level. but I don't feel as if melee has a problem with balance.

the top half are decently viable. the next 4th are usable(lol yl up). the last 4th are unplayed and could be used. but might be trash idk.

after ten years the tier list is still changing, a decent amount. so don't claim balance issues until every character is at its full potential. the bottom 7 arent really touched so the don't develop. until a character is played by a dedicated specialist its hard to accurately attest to its abilities.

dedicated specialist = gosu motha fukka who mains a low tier.

 

[Fletch]

I personally think Pichu has a better chance in melee than Link or Falcon have in brawl, but that is just my opinion.

and about melee keeping up with brawl, we'll see if Brawl is still popular in 8 years.

While I agree, I don't really think this comparison is very fair given that Brawl has a lot more characters. I think you could argue that Brawl is much less balanced because it essentially has an S tier character above everyone else where Melee's S tier consists of at least 3 characters, maybe 5-7. Go into percentages of the cast, and then it's even more ridiculous. Brawl's balance is horrible.

 

[Blistering Speed]

Who's better: Fox or Falco.

Sorry to break up lame discussionz.

I haven't made a long post on smashboards in a while and it was either this or study for a med school admissions test next week, so this is where my priorities lie. I know everyone likes KK's ties idea of Fox/Falco because it's easier due to how close they are, but the fact is that they aren't, one's better then the other. For years I've thought Fox>Falco, recently I've re-evaluated and can't come to a conclusion. So here it is, laid out for us to make a judgement.

Game play elements: Who is better at what?

Edge guarding – Tie. Fox's shine spike is about as amazing as Falco's lasers here (might not seem it, but stealing second jumps and forcing your opponent to recover in the position YOU want is awesome). Both have invincibility frame renewable ledge hop B Air taking out anything and everything and both can also on stage F Smash/D Smash/whatever if they want. Falco's D Air is awesome too, but it doesn't really accomplish what couldn't be done by listed above.

Outright kills – Fox. Don't get me wrong, Falco never has a problem killing with super strong F Smash and B Air and spike and edge guards and whatnot, but Fox's U Smash is better then anything Falco has on the ground and U Air is a better aerial finisher then anything Falco has (SDI isn't consistent yet and B Air in place of it gives screwed up DI fun). Vertical killing is just better these days and Falco doesn't have it as good.

Shield pressure – Falco. Fox's is more air tight frame wise and more difficult to get out of, but Falco's punishment disparity more then compensates. If Fox's N Air/D Air breaks through, he can't react in time to continue guaranteed, the opponent can implement defensive options, and the same is true of the shine. Fox's shine breaking through near the edge is awesome because it knocks the opponent off, but this makes it situational, something Falco's is not. Falco's shine's monster stun means you can react and continue a combo consistently from a hit, if D Air hits it leads straight into shine anyway. Both are about as good at escaping, with super awesome aerials and shine OOS being gay and broken. Shine grab is equally retardedly good for both.

Stage control – Falco. Fox has the best mobility in the game as well a lovely gun himself, but Falco has a gun which stuns and is thus lovelier. Powershielding isn't a particular threat as long as you don't laser in the “can be attacked following the PS range” and Falco has a lot of options avoiding PS'd lasers. The fact is he controls the movement game where as Fox is just the best at the movement game.

Comboing – Falco. Falco combos everyone (yeah, actually everyone) with the best launcher and spike in the game with loads of gay finishing from the likes of B Air, spike and quirky smash combos. Fox is so close with the lameness of a set knockback move with always guaranteed ish after (including possibly the best kill smash in the game) but falls back a bit against characters like Puff and Samus and generally people who fall down from the shine. His combos are also effected more by SDI, not just the fact that one day D Air (I'm sceptical but maybe) and U Air could be consistently avoiding the latter hits, N Air also starts to send too far. Falco is comparatively unaffected.

Grabs – Fox. This section kinda ties in with comboing but I thought it deserves its own. Both are amazing at forcing them with shield pressure and the aforementioned awesome of shine grabs, as well as both D Airs comboing into it (maybe Falco's slightly better at forcing due to lasers), but Falco's tricksies with messed up DI hits don't compensate for the cold hard gay of Fox's U Throw. Guaranteed combos on large portions of the cast with either edge guard or straight out kill from B Air/U Air. While Falco has grab combos against FFers sometimes, Fox still wins due to U Smash and CG, and later B Air/U Air.

Matchups:
These are all kinda my opinion, but I'll try to exercise conservatism when necessary. I've probably argued all of them in depth at some point but currently cba. It's fine if you have a differing view(though doubtless it's because I'm like 5 off yours and not worth debating), but if it's actually a view that opposes mine pretty drastically I'll discuss it in the MU thread gladly.

vs Themselves – Even. I might lean towards 55-45 Falco because of how much easier execution for him in the matchup is (Fox has to react to loads of **** with pinpoint accuracy while Falco can do some easy auto combos) but it's really close whatever.

vs Puff – Fox. I think Puff goes even with Falco because Falco still retains comboing, lasers (Puff is the best in the game at getting round these, but lasers are lasers) and high priority aerial awesome, but yeah Fox beats Puff like 60-40.

vs Sheik – Even. I think both go 50-50 with her, though the consensus is that Fox does better.

vs Marth – Even. Pretty much the same as above, though if anyone does better it's Fox by 5 or something negligible.

vs Peach – Fox. By like a lot. I think Falco wins 55-45, Fox on the other hand molests Peach. I won't quantify it, but it's ****.

vs Falcon – Even. I like Scar's 65-35 for both idea, though it often doesn't pan out this way because Falcon can punish mistakes pretty drastically and spacies players are often stupid.

vs IC's – Fox. Fox exploits everything that's fundamentally flawed about Icies pretty well (not the unholiness of Peach vs IC's but yeah). Falco wins slightly, people arguing 50-50 underrate that Falco has a one frame super separator that leads to him comboing the balls off which ever he chooses + he kills Nana sooo well.

Dr Mario, Ganondorf etc. (aka meh they can do OK in tournament tier) – Even. Both have advantages on all, though no greater then 60-40. Samus doesn't beat Falco, <3 Hugs but no.

Not tournament viable tier – Not worth debating, no real effect on tier position, suffice to say both always have the advantage.

Tournament representation:
I've gotta give this to Falco. Fox is extremely common and there are more decent Fox mains then any other character, plus he's probably the most common secondary, nearly every top player has a Fox. However, at the very highest level the only real Fox main representation is Jman who consistently places top 10 at nationals (not Lucky really, though I guess you can make an argument for him). He also probably places higher then any Falco on average (though don't quote me on this, I haven't checked). Jman could be thought of as an outlier player in this regard. Falco's representation on the other hand has Zhu, Shiz, Dr Peepee and arguably Lamchops all consistently placing very high. Overall, Falco does better. I think you can attribute this mainly to Fox's very high necessary precision, making him the more inconsistent of the two in tournament.

Would love to hear everyone's views, unless it's regarding my screwed up priorities.

 

[KAOSTAR]

pretty legit. ill respond when I get to a computer.

imo tho fox is better at edge guarding. I think you put alot of emphasis on lasers but close and mid most characters can deal with them. some characters get help from lasers. shine ***** all.

 

[MTKO]

pretty legit. ill respond when I get to a computer.

imo tho fox is better at edge guarding. I think you put alot of emphasis on lasers but close and mid most characters can deal with them. some characters get help from lasers. shine ***** all.

When I first read the edge guarding argument I definitely felt like fox was better than falco in that area too. Shine is much more useful over all than the options falco has in my opinion when it comes to edge guarding.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

yeah fox's shine for edge gaurd is **** what I do my brother's falco anymore is b-throw to sit and wait till he uses a move and shine him to death he's use to it I never mess up againt his side-B he'll die at 20%. I'm sorry but falco can't **** you on the edge that hard and easily.

really I think there are just simply so many foxes out there everyone together destroyed all of the creatively of fox so it's rarer to see something different or new even if fox is very flexible he's just over played. isn't there someone esle with a bunch of mains but no ones any good really like can place?

 

[Dark Hart]

I've always seen it as Falco > Fox imo

 

[ranmaru]

Hey I think you forgot recovery? I think Fox does better than falco in this department.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

it really doesn't matter as much as you think went your off the edge you die as fox or falco. fox sometimes gets luckly

 

[SSSnake]

about recovery : i think (this is just my opinion) usually if fox/falco gets knocked off stage, either they got got hit by a very strong move, which will ko them, or theyre against marth and he kills their recovery attempt with N_B. so recovery isnt THAT important imo.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

ummmm just marth? his edge gaurding is WWAAAAAAYYYYYY over ratedmost people cn hit you from grabbing the edge or coming mid high. Really bowser can easily take care of their recoveries. the only time they aren't easy is went you have very slow jumps on platform stages.

 

[SSSnake]

i was just giving an example

 

[Nø Ca$h]

lol icg marths edge gaurding is amazing. especially vs spacies

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

it is but everyone should be able to **** them

 

[Brookman]

. . . .

I do not approve of this post.

p.s. I was gonna respond to it but it became say tl;dr

 

[Blistering Speed]

I do not approve of this post.

p.s. I was gonna respond to it but it became say tl;dr

; ( but why?

Recovery's basically even, Fox gets the slight advantage because his Firefox goes further but generally if you're FireFox/Falcoing you should be dead anyway.

 

[The Star King]

His illusion also goes further. And the Firefox charge actually hits people, which is quite helpful in protecting Fox from edgeguarding.

 

[KAOSTAR]

; ( but why?

Recovery's basically even, Fox gets the slight advantage because his Firefox goes further but generally if you're FireFox/Falcoing you should be dead anyway.

if you had two versions of fox. one with falco recovery.

the first one would do better hands down.

fox isn't dead just for leaving the stage. I know there are times he just gets ***** offstage but fox does actually make it back sometimes.

I think that his recovery is decently better than falco's to where he has the edge in that category.

from actual youtube lol amongst the best fox/falco don't die if their feet go off the stage.

 

[Blistering Speed]

Yeah, that's why I gave him the advantage. Falco isn't dead for leaving the stage either, illusion's a relatively decent recovery and near always the primary recovery used by both spacies. Seeing as both illusion's have pretty negligible recovery differences, I say a longer Up B with start up hitbox doesn't give a huge advantage.