Fortress | Sveet
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I think fox and falco are both amazing. Fox probably has a slight edge tho
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Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List
- Thread starter Slhoka
- Start date
x After Dawn x
Smash Master
^ definitely, but it's so hard keeping that consistency with fox at such a high level
the only fox players i can think of that can are probly jman and cactuar back when he tried (i don't even know if he plays anymore?)
the only fox players i can think of that can are probly jman and cactuar back when he tried (i don't even know if he plays anymore?)
Grim Tuesday
Smash Legend
Lucky can sometimes too.
Oh, and Mango ofc.
Possibly PP (if he used Fox)?
Oh, and Mango ofc.
Possibly PP (if he used Fox)?
x After Dawn x
Smash Master
LOL lucky? you can't be serious...
lucky is literally the most inconsistent good fox player
lucky is literally the most inconsistent good fox player
Grim Tuesday
Smash Legend
I assumed you meant consistency through-out a tournament, rather than consistency overall.
Lucky has shown in the past that he can go through an entire tourney playing at his peak, it just doesn't happen often lol
Lucky has shown in the past that he can go through an entire tourney playing at his peak, it just doesn't happen often lol
KAOSTAR
the Ascended One
Im wit Grim on this one.
john!
Smash Hero
don't people keep saying that tournament results don't matter (e.g. axe doing well doesn't mean pikachu is good)? if that's true then who cares how difficult fox is to play in tournament?
x After Dawn x
Smash Master
if it doesn't happen often, then it doesn't mean he can do it consistently, which is exactly what i said...
Grim Tuesday
Smash Legend
lrn2readbro
KAOSTAR
the Ascended One
its definitely not what u said, its probably not even what you meant. there is no reason to assume what you claim u said was what you meant.
Fortress | Sveet
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Consistency in a single tournament =/= consistent placings in a career
KAOSTAR
the Ascended One
Yea, word. not reading johns lol.
x After Dawn x
Smash Master
um that's exactly what I said and meant, I don't get what you're talking about. I don't think lucky has consistency overall AND in single tournaments. I've seen him come a stock away from taking a tournament when mango was actually trying, and then I've seen him choke and lose matches he wasn't supposed to. Anybody who knows him personally will tell you the same thing, including mango who has done so many times, especially as his doubles partner.
Not saying he's not a good player, because he is definitely one of the most talented Foxes in the US. I'm just pointing out he doesn't have consistency in both aspects. And either way, this is fairly irrelevant to the topic, which was the fact that some people place Falco above Fox in their personal tier lists not due to the fact that they think Falco plays better at his peak, but because they feel that Fox is too difficult to maintain at his peak consistently.
Edit: Also Sveet, I remember a few pages back you said something about Roy having good edgeguarding, but I didn't read anything after that so I missed what you said about that after I asked how he edgeguards well. I can't think of Roy having anything else to edgeguard with except his fsmash and maaaybe his counter, but he falls too fast to be able to pull off the offstage edgeguarding that Marth's able to do, and I don't really know what he can do if his opponent is avoiding the fsmashes via sweetspotting (I suppose that's when the counter comes into effect, but I have no clue how it differs from Marth's).
Not saying he's not a good player, because he is definitely one of the most talented Foxes in the US. I'm just pointing out he doesn't have consistency in both aspects. And either way, this is fairly irrelevant to the topic, which was the fact that some people place Falco above Fox in their personal tier lists not due to the fact that they think Falco plays better at his peak, but because they feel that Fox is too difficult to maintain at his peak consistently.
Edit: Also Sveet, I remember a few pages back you said something about Roy having good edgeguarding, but I didn't read anything after that so I missed what you said about that after I asked how he edgeguards well. I can't think of Roy having anything else to edgeguard with except his fsmash and maaaybe his counter, but he falls too fast to be able to pull off the offstage edgeguarding that Marth's able to do, and I don't really know what he can do if his opponent is avoiding the fsmashes via sweetspotting (I suppose that's when the counter comes into effect, but I have no clue how it differs from Marth's).
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2008
- Messages
- 26,564
the point of a tier list (specifically, this one) is to rank how viable each character is at a tournament of (inter)national scale played by humans.
otherwise yeah you'd be right
My friend, Glide, shares some of his thoughts on tiers.
Perhaps some perspective from other fighting games will help us understand where I and other people are coming from when we look at how characters are moving up and down on the tier list.
If you haven't followed my Mewtwo Philosophy thread at all, I also propose that we do more frequent tier list updates that follows the flow of the metagame more closely.
Most of us are taking a lot of things into consideration when we choose which characters belong where on the tier list. Tourney placings, overall match-ups, tactics, potential, character statistics, and player history are some of the more common criteria that people are using.
What do you guys think should be the most important criteria for establish an accurate tier-list? At what point does player skill no longer supersede character strength?
I ask this because at some point, there may be unexpected results that show up consistently, (Axe/HugS/Kage/Shroomed**) and over the general population, they are dominating, but their respective characters don't quite have as much representation. Then you have players, like myself, that attempt to demonstrate a character's strengths, but gets shrugged off because I don't necessarily get a top 10 finish and I'm one of the only B level Melee players playing the character with consistent results against prominent players. Getting dismissed as just outplaying my opponents until I play someone that knows what they're doing.
**BTW, I agree with the current placement of Samus/Doc/Ganon, I just think that Pikachu has demonstrated and is continuing to demonstrate that he can be around that same tier.**
My 1337 Post.
Perhaps some perspective from other fighting games will help us understand where I and other people are coming from when we look at how characters are moving up and down on the tier list.
If you haven't followed my Mewtwo Philosophy thread at all, I also propose that we do more frequent tier list updates that follows the flow of the metagame more closely.
Most of us are taking a lot of things into consideration when we choose which characters belong where on the tier list. Tourney placings, overall match-ups, tactics, potential, character statistics, and player history are some of the more common criteria that people are using.
What do you guys think should be the most important criteria for establish an accurate tier-list? At what point does player skill no longer supersede character strength?
I ask this because at some point, there may be unexpected results that show up consistently, (Axe/HugS/Kage/Shroomed**) and over the general population, they are dominating, but their respective characters don't quite have as much representation. Then you have players, like myself, that attempt to demonstrate a character's strengths, but gets shrugged off because I don't necessarily get a top 10 finish and I'm one of the only B level Melee players playing the character with consistent results against prominent players. Getting dismissed as just outplaying my opponents until I play someone that knows what they're doing.
**BTW, I agree with the current placement of Samus/Doc/Ganon, I just think that Pikachu has demonstrated and is continuing to demonstrate that he can be around that same tier.**
My 1337 Post.
Fortress | Sveet
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That was quite a good post Taj, but I never really considered you a B level player
edit- From your 5th paragraph it seems like you were implying that player skill is the primary reason for player placement, not character choice. Would you agree with that statement?
edit- From your 5th paragraph it seems like you were implying that player skill is the primary reason for player placement, not character choice. Would you agree with that statement?
Anthon1996
Smash Ace
Taj has 1337 posts! (Prolly gonna get ruined if he replies to me)
Divinokage
Smash Legend
Damn Taj.. Tell them!!!
Winston
Smash Master
player skill supersedes character strength at a high/top level IF the person playing the better character understands why their character is advantaged in a matchup, what things they can abuse, and executes it correctly. Those conditions are very rarely met, so the result is that in general, exceptional players can place well at the high/top level with mid tier characters.
Basically what I'm arguing is that the gap in matchup experience is responsible for eliminating much of the matchup disadvantage in the case of mid tiers. The tier list should account for this factor when looking at results, which is just as important as "player skill" and "character strength".
V3ctorMan
Smash Champion
neeeds Moar Yoshi.
<3
<3
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2008
- Messages
- 26,564
Taj: I think Pikachu is a small step below Doc/Ganon/Samus. Axe is just better than HugS/Kage/Shroomed and people haven't had to know the Pika match-up until recently. Axe will still style on people even after they do though because he's so good.
V3ctorMan
Smash Champion
You forget that Yoshi styles on pikachu though...
just sayin...
prolly not helping huh?!?
XD jk jk
just sayin...
prolly not helping huh?!?
XD jk jk
x After Dawn x
Smash Master
yoshi sucks
V3ctorMan
Smash Champion
x After Dawn x
Smash Master
bottom tier JUNK
V3ctorMan
Smash Champion
Grim Tuesday
Smash Legend
At least he isn't Pichu.
KAOSTAR
the Ascended One
LOLOLOL V3ctorman on troll mode. Ive decided all by myself, that Egglay isnt a good move!
V3ctorMan
Smash Champion
*removes you from any sort of contact info* LOL just playing. XD. Whether it is/isn't I guess I'll never know, but it hasn't done any harm for me... it worked at Pound V for me, and still continues to do so, even vs high calibur players, so I still like it!
<3
Grim Tuesday
Smash Legend
Egg lay is a grab that isn't a grab.
It's ****ing good.
It's ****ing good.
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2008
- Messages
- 26,564
egg lay is ok
Dude CPU's kill me with that all the time...
Beat!
Smash Master
inb4 leffen
KAOSTAR
the Ascended One
Stevo
Smash Champion
I think it is useful for halting your opponents momentum, if nothing else.
being egglay'd a couple times in a row is really painful on your confidence lol
being egglay'd a couple times in a row is really painful on your confidence lol
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2008
- Messages
- 26,564
*egglain
get on that grammar
get on that grammar
Stevo
Smash Champion
Don't make me bring up when you tried to tell me I spelt the berenstain bears wrong
Beat!
Smash Master
egglaid?
N64
Smash Champion
Vman I thought we went over this. Pikachu beats Yoshi. Stop denying it!
It is pretty close thoughhhhhh
It is pretty close thoughhhhhh
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Ditto beats Luigi. THERE I SAID IT.