Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List

[Everlasting Laughter]

Does anyone else feel that bowser is mid tier on ys when he gets all those options and is much harder to camp.

 

[x After Dawn x]

It's not common to feel a lot of **** when you're high. Lay off the crack, dude.

 

[Everlasting Laughter]

Cool story bro

 

[KirbyKaze]

I don't agree but that shouldn't matter anyway because we can stage ban YS and then Bowser is terrible again.

 

[Everlasting Laughter]

Yeah i went too far but just wondering how people felt about bowser idk i think his side b and fair could work nice ans fire breath to get dding when they are too far.

Maybe i just need more sleep

 

[KirbyKaze]

You need more sleep. Bowser's approach is horrible, even on a small level. Firebreath works effectively on every level. His extra movement is kind of cool but he's still far from mobile.

 

[Everlasting Laughter]

Yeah sorry to waste both your time i should've thought about the fact marth walks about as fast as bowser runs/drives. Just overly hopeful in nature.

Just eariler someone argued with me that pichu was better than bowser and I had to disargee because of bowser's much more solid defense game with up b and stuff

 

[KirbyKaze]

I used to say Bowser > Pichu because of Up+B but the only matchups where Up+B is relevant (amongst good characters) Bowser gets viciously ***** anyway because the opponent can run away and throw crap at him.

I'm really unsure as to whether Bowser, Ness, or Pichu is the worst of that group (I am aware Mofo's fanbase is going to shriek at me for this but oh well). I do think Kirby is the worst character simply because he's the most susceptible to mindless camping strategies because of his horrific movement. But even then it's not too difficult to argue any of those three being worse than Kirby (for some reason or another) so I might as well lump him on the table too.

 

[Strong Badam]

I think that the individual placement of those 4 characters is so arbitrary and unimportant that they might as well be in a "Negligible Tier" like in the joke list a while back.

 

[Everlasting Laughter]

Really I don't understand ness enough to really know where he fits. All i know is he sucks at ccing, fair spacing, nearly roy good movement, up smash lols and has a good grab game with no range. And other details.

But for the rest i think
Bowser
Pichu
Kirby

But if we are going to asume everyone will take the easiest route to beat them by camping I guess pichu could be better at least his nair can s*** on ccs and sheilds.

But seeing how the common metagame isn't campy as in timing out I think bowser is safe to say better most of the time.

Like wise if everyone dealed with falco's lasers by powersheild to wd oos there's no way falco would be where he's at if that was the common metagame.

 

[Beat!]

I still think you're ICG.

 

[Dark Hart]

Loooooooooooool

 

[KirbyKaze]

I think that the individual placement of those 4 characters is so arbitrary and unimportant that they might as well be in a "Negligible Tier" like in the joke list a while back.

I agree with this, but then the community gets mad because it's a cop-out even though there is almost no tournament data for these characters (which, in a [somewhat] results-based list, is troublesome) and any tactical discussion regarding this group is basically anecdotal and / or from a very small sample size (which is troublesome because there's potential for extremely high variance in how we perceive strengths and weaknesses).

So discussion on these guys usually devolves into theory-smash, which nobody likes. And if we leave them in their own group and say, "We don't know, they're horrible and nobody uses them and nobody can agree on them", then we get screamed at for copping out. We just can't win

 

[JOS.fm]

I would offer negligible tier tourney data in the upcoming months but those sound incredibly unfun.

 

[Strong Badam]

The only thing Pichu has going for him is a frame 3 nair. But Kirby has a 15 damage 100 KBG uair. They're both terrible otherwise. I have no idea which one I should arbitrarily place higher, but they're the two worst. If it were PAL I wouldn't have such a dilemma...

 

[Beat!]

Kirby has a pretty **** uptilt too

:d

 

[Grim Tuesday]

The only thing? o_O

What about his small size, ridiculously low landing lag and ground speed. decent KO ability and great recovery?

 

[Strong Badam]

the 2 lower frames on his normal landing lag are almost negligible. LOL. his weight is still 55, less than ****ing Jigglypuff.

 

[Everlasting Laughter]

Kbg means what?

And list mean very little because like kk said it's a bunch of theory on how it works normally. You could point out pichu's disjointed somewhat fast f smash with the highest f smash knockback in the game and it looks good on paper like maybe you could dd/wd away to make a fox or whoever whiff and take the hit and die at 60% or whatever but we all know that is just sexy theory.

Also all of kirby's tilts are more useful than his smashes

As far as tournment results i've seen more recent bowser videos than any other whatever tier so that can be useful I guess.

 

[Strong Badam]

KBG = Knockback Growth = How much knockback grows based on damage

His Fsmash isn't that spectacular, mostly because of SDI. It does have a huge amount of BKB and KBG, but it has only has 6 damage on the ending hitbox, while Falco's and Marth's have more damage and thus are more effective. Pretty sure Doc's is ****ing strong too.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

@Laughter

Marth's tipper is stronger, I'm pretty sure.

 

[Everlasting Laughter]

Is there a list on this? Somewhere or did you just find it in the hacking? If there a way to apply it to a varible based problem or what?

Is 100% the limit or are there more extreme cases like stitch face?

Maybe this unless but i'm very cusios



Grim i'm pretty sure from my own f testing that roy's center f smash has more knockback

But this knockback growth might prove me wrong based on percent because depending on percent pichu's f smash, then bowser, roy(sweetspot) then marth's are strongest.

 

[Strong Badam]

It's not a percentage. It's a value. 100 is generally on the higher end of things, especially on aerials, but extreme cases such as Falco's fsmash (105), Pika's U-Smash (110), Pichu's ending hitbox on F-Smash (140) are higher. Fox's U-Smash has 112. Also, Ice Climbers' dsmashes have 110.
No idea on Stitchface but most of the knockback is because it does 34% damage. Damage is factored in twice. The non-stale damage is used in the formula, as well as the After-Hitbox Percent of the opponent.

and yeah these are from the character files

Roy's F-Smash has less knockback than Marth's tipper Fsmash except at maybe 0, in which case it might be the same. Its KBG is lower and the other values are the same including damage.

 

[Everlasting Laughter]

It's not a percentage. It's a value. 100 is generally on the higher end of things, especially on aerials, but extreme cases such as Falco's fsmash (105), Pika's U-Smash (110), Pichu's ending hitbox on F-Smash (140) are higher. Fox's U-Smash has 112. Also, Ice Climbers' dsmashes have 110.So the higher the value the greater the increase rate don't answer unless i'm wrong just the begining wording messed with me
No idea on Stitchface but most of the knockback is because it does 34% damage. Damage is factored in twice. Can you explain how it's factored in twice? I always thought knockback was based on damage before being hitThe non-stale damage is used in the formula, as well as the After-Hitbox Percent of the opponent.

and yeah these are from the character files

Roy's F-Smash has less knockback than Marth's tipper Fsmash except at maybe 0, in which case it might be the same. Its KBG is lower and the other values are the same including damage.

So wtf pichu's f smash is a monster in knockback and it grows in knockback at a hella fast rate. But this does explain somethings like doing a bit of damage makes huge changes for some moves. If you changed the numbers by small amounts for some throws you could easily end the till death throws or at least make them not as extreme as sheik going to 60% for a bunch of the cast idk a small change that would help but buffs are normally better like making the bottom tier ungrabable

 

[stelzig]

Out of curiosity, what is the KBG on warlock punch? And what about ganons utilt? I always found warlock punch to increase in knockback incredibly fast while utilt doesn't change much at all.

 

[Strong Badam]

yeah it has an abnormally low amount of growth (Sheik's dthrow)

knockback is based on damage after the hit. this is why http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6OgCDwvLO8 is so misleadingly true. he should have rather hit Mario at 46%, resulting in in the same staled knockback as the fresh knockback at 35%.

ganon's warlock punch as 100 Growth but since it does upwards of 30 damage, the opponent's % after the hit grows by so ****ing much so it seems to gain a lot faster. For whatever reason Ganon's U-tilt subaction doesn't have the hitbox; it's probably in another action or something.

 

[Everlasting Laughter]

Strongbad is the magic number man and would be called a wizard back in the day and enterain people his incredible matheness

 

[Strong Badam]

Magus420, Dantarion, and WindOwl are the people who found out the syntax and coded the program I use... I just look stuff up...

 

[Everlasting Laughter]

Have mercy magic number man i did not wish to upset you please don't make it rain 7's for a week or make all meals 10,ooo calories by adding a poorly drawn o.

I'll give you an offering of one coupon if you have mercy.

Back to seriousness do you think that falco should just be equal to fox they just seem so close in so many ways maybe fox has some better match ups but it's so hard to keep that level of play up and we are basing it human players after all

 

[Strong Badam]

I personally think Falco is better overall, even if marginally.

 

[Everlasting Laughter]

He isn't like fox vs floaties and i think you might be baise as a dk main for sure.

 

[Strong Badam]

What? The DK match-up is fairly irrelevant in terms of the tier list, everyone higher than him except like Doc has an advantageous matchup against him. Sheik ***** DK almost as badly as Falco and I still say she's 4th best.

 

[Fletch]

Fox played to perfection > Falco played to perfection.
Falco most of the time played by top pros > Fox most of the time played by top pros

How the tier lists decide who is better is beyond me though.

 

[Strong Badam]

perfection is irrelevant

 

[Fletch]

perfection is irrelevant

Maybe I phrased it incorrectly, but as close to perfection as the top pros can get would be better. I don't see Fox being played at that level all the time though, so it seems to be impossible.

FWIW, I think Falco is slightly better for that reason.

 

[Strong Badam]

It's very difficult/impossible to be consistently at the upper end of Fox play for the extended period of time necessary to go through an entire tournament, while it isn't for any other character. It's the main reason why I don't think he's has good as Falco, not because the character itself is worse.

 

[Fletch]

It's very difficult/impossible to be consistently at the upper end of Fox play for the extended period of time necessary to go through an entire tournament, while it isn't for any other character. It's the main reason why I don't think he's has good as Falco, not because the character itself is worse.

You put it a little better than me, but this is how I feel.

 

[KAOSTAR]

what about that falcon f smash...and hire do I get this program?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I support Falco being higher than Fox.

 

[Dark Hart]

I support Falco being higher than Fox.

I agree with this