Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List

[Strong Badam]

yes, what I said means something, Sveet.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Whats a top level peak and a top level average? whats top level? A lot of that stuff seemed really vague and unrealistic

or something like that

 

[Strong Badam]

A top level player's peak vs. a top level player's average; since average playing skill is what determines consistency in tournament it's the more important factor.
I was trying to articulate why I thought Falco is more consistent than Fox, but in the end it seemed like a bunch of theory. lookin back I like the "in other words" version more.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

me too lol

 

[Strong Badam]

man **** you sveet YOU SUCK <3

 

[Grim Tuesday]

S TIER:
1/2. Fox/Falco
3/4. Sheik/Jigglypuff
5. Marth

A TIER:
6. Peach
7. Captain Falcon
8. Ice Climbers

B TIER:
9. Ganondorf,
10/11. Pikachu/Samus
12/13/14. Luigi/Dr. Mario/Mario
15. Popo

C TIER:
16/17. Link/Young Link
18. Donkey Kong

D TIER:
19/20. Zelda/Roy
21/22/23. Yoshi/Mewtwo/Mr. Game & Watch

E TIER:
24. Pichu
25. Kirby
26. Ness
27. Bowser

F TIER:
28. Master Hand

<3​

 

[x After Dawn x]

falco might be a more consistent character than fox but his combos aren't necessarily more consistent or safer; fox's "autocombos" are easier to pull off than falco's horrible grab game and pillaring which can be DI'd or teched out of.

also lol @ master hand F tier; has anyone actually used him in tourney before? is he actually legal in tournaments?

 

[Crooked Crow]

S:Fox, Falco, Sheik, Jigglypuff, Marth
Aeach, Captain Falcon, Ice Climbers
B:Ganondorf, Pikachu, Samus, Luigi, Dr. Mario, Mario, Popo
C:Link, Young Link, Yoshi, Donkey Kong
D:Zelda, Roy, Mewtwo, Mr. Game & Watch
Eichu, Kirby, Ness, Bowser
F:Master Hand

<3

Pikachu that high? Bowser being the worst character in the game? Yoshi in C tier? Roy being that high?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

also lol @ master hand F tier; has anyone actually used him in tourney before? is he actually legal in tournaments?

Someone used him in a monthly in my state once xD

Well, I've never seen him explicitly banned in tourneys... So I guess he's legal. Though all of his MUs are 100-0.

Pikachu that high? Bowser being the worst character in the game? Yoshi in C tier? Roy being that high?

Pikachu - Axe. Pikachu is really ****ing good. He's fast, strong and has a reliable moveset and has a good match-up spread.

Bowser - He's almost useless. He gets ***** by very simple tactics by all the top tiers. At least Pichu and Kirby actually require mental effort to beat at the peak of the game, Bowser is just so slow that there is so much **** he can't deal with.

Yoshi - VMan. Has a lot more potential than the characters that he used to be grouped with due to parrying, his good wave-dash and overall solid moveset.

Roy - ...I placed him in the same place the MBR placed him...

 

[Ripple]

I told you guys, roy is much worse than zelda

 

[Crooked Crow]

You can't be serious.

Those players are exceptional, outliers. Is there enough consistency to warrant a place that high on the tier list?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

falco might be a more consistent character than fox but his combos aren't necessarily more consistent or safer; fox's "autocombos" are easier to pull off than falco's horrible grab game and pillaring which can be DI'd or teched out of.

Are you talking about real competitive melee these days or 2006?

Fox's uthrow uair gets DI'd out of.
Shine -> usmash is pretty consistent but good luck hit confirming fox's shine. dair->shine doesn't work anymore.
Basically fox has bair/nair and edgeguards for his consistent kills.

Falco's shine can be hit confirmed (ei, you can dair->shine a shield and do another dair after the shine and still go after them in the air)
Falco's shine combos into every kill move he has, especially in conjunction with platforms.
"Pillaring" (assuming you mean dair->shine combos) can't be DI'd out of, and its even very difficult to SDI out of the combos. Also teching doesn't let you escape if the combo is done correctly.


That said, fox's consecutive hits mostly rely on positional gains after shines and tech chases and executing when the time comes up. Falco actually has true combos which gives more consistent damage with less thought.



edit- in terms of the list grim posted, i guess i'll comment too.

pikachu- yes i think he needs to go up, but at first i thought "that high?". I'm still not sure where to put him but thats not a horrible place for him.
yoshi- way too high. you overrate him.
bowser- you are underrating him. Hes slow but his shield game is really solid and he has quick tilts and a few usable aerials. Also he has pretty good edgeguards.
zelda/roy- roy isn't worse than mew2 or G&W, and zelda isn't really better than dk or the links.
pichu- the worst character in the game period. he is garbage.
kirby- probably pretty low but maybe some redeeming qualities
luigi- not better than doc.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

You can't be serious.

Those players are exceptional, outliers. Is there enough consistency to warrant a place that high on the tier list?

Axe and Vman showed their character's potential. Are you saying that Fox should be bottom tier if all Fox players are ****?

edit- in terms of the list grim posted, i guess i'll comment too.

pikachu- yes i think he needs to go up, but at first i thought "that high?". I'm still not sure where to put him but thats not a horrible place for him.

Cool.

yoshi- way too high. you overrate him.

You underrate him.

bowser- you are underrating him. Hes slow but his shield game is really solid and he has quick tilts and a few usable aerials. Also he has pretty good edgeguards.

All of which doesn't matter because he gets camped badly by all of the top/high tiers to the point where his shield and close-range game is irrelevant.

zelda/roy- roy isn't worse than mew2 or G&W, and zelda isn't really better than dk or the links.

Which is why I put Roy above Mewtwo/G&W and Zelda below DK/Links...?

pichu- the worst character in the game period. he is garbage.

Why? He's fast, he can KO fine and gimp, he has a "meh" combo-game, but it still exists and he's got great throws.

kirby- probably pretty low but maybe some redeeming qualities

Ok.

luigi- not better than doc.

I updated the original post, they were supposed to all be even.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

pichu is literally the worst character in the game. Have you ever seen his tech roll? I laugh every single time. He has no range at all. His combos do 20% and lead into... nothing. He can only gimp/edgeguard if you let him. Its basically pikachu without his edgeguarding moves (dtilt, uair). Hes also ridiculously light. He dies below 85% on FD from fox.

bowser isn't quite as slow as you put it, and im sure his match-ups against the top tiers arent any worse than pichus kirbys or anyone elses (in fact they are better since he can actually fight out of shield against them and edgeguard; DJ nintendo beat lambchops with bowser). Against the lower tiers bowser actually is significantly better than pichu and kirby because of these qualities (edgeguards and solid defensive game)

yoshi is not good. parrying and super armor are gimmicky and place a lot of guessing in the hands of the user. Assuming the player is quite skilled the character can be better than normal, but that doesn't put him in C tier just below Link. Yoshi shouldn't be placed above G&W at best.

doc isn't tied with luigi.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

pichu is literally the worst character in the game. Have you ever seen his tech roll? I laugh every single time. He has no range at all. His combos do 20% and lead into... nothing. He can only gimp/edgeguard if you let him. Its basically pikachu without his edgeguarding moves (dtilt, uair). Hes also ridiculously light. He dies below 85% on FD from fox.

Pichu's tech roll is awful, yes. He is also ridiculously light. That's why he is still in the lowest tier.

He definitely has range xD You just have to use his good moves (nair, dair, bair, uair, usmash, fsmash, agility, dtilt and utilt).

His combos lead into KOs and edge-guards, actually.

Dtilt is as much an edge-guard move for Pichu as it is for Pikachu.

bowser isn't quite as slow as you put it, and im sure his match-ups against the top tiers arent any worse than pichus kirbys or anyone elses (in fact they are better since he can actually fight out of shield against them and edgeguard; DJ nintendo beat lambchops with bowser). Against the lower tiers bowser actually is significantly better than pichu and kirby because of these qualities (edgeguards and solid defensive game)

I'd be happy to do a money match against literally anyone's Bowser.

Enlighten me as to what Bowser's options are against a laser-spamming Falco who does a shine > 0 to death whenever Bowser commits to something?

yoshi is not good. parrying and super armor are gimmicky and place a lot of guessing in the hands of the user. Assuming the player is quite skilled the character can be better than normal, but that doesn't put him in C tier just below Link. Yoshi shouldn't be placed above G&W at best.

I agree, I put him too high. I'll lower him.

doc isn't tied with luigi.

Why not? They are almost identical matchup-wise.

 

[Crooked Crow]

Go back to playing Brawl.

I don't mean to be crude, but you don't think that after 10 years of solidifying a metagame, we don't have an inkling of understanding when it comes to character potential? You're wrong.

Yoshi sucks, bottom tier. Yes, even in spite of VectorMan being an extremely good player who is able to minimize Yoshi's weaknesses and maximize his limited strengths, doesn't change the actual character data.

Pikachu is low tier, in spite of Axe placing 4th. Character results are -one- aspect of weighing potential, don't disregard the other areas. Look at frame data, matchup spreads, and mechanics. Both must be accounted for in order to properly paint an accurate picture.

Do you see any other Pikachu's or Yoshi's? No? Do they have good matchups? Not really, well, that's because aforementioned characters are garbage.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Pichu's tech roll is awful, yes. He is also ridiculously light. That's why he is still in the lowest tier.

He definitely has range xD You just have to use his good moves (nair, dair, bair, uair, usmash, fsmash, agility, dtilt and utilt).

His combos lead into KOs and edge-guards, actually.

Dtilt is as much an edge-guard move for Pichu as it is for Pikachu.



I'd be happy to do a money match against literally anyone's Bowser.

Enlighten me as to what Bowser's options are against a laser-spamming Falco who does a shine > 0 to death whenever Bowser commits to something?



I agree, I put him too high. I'll lower him.



Why not? They are almost identical matchup-wise.

pichu- those moves you listed all have almost no range. none of them even have more range than shiek's jab (maybe fsmash). Give me one pichu combo that leads into a KO move or an edgeguard at a realistic percent.

bowser- that exact same argument can be made for the ganon vs falco match-up, yet ganon clearly has a possibility for winning.

Luigi and doc are clearly not the same though. Idk what match-ups ur talking about, but Doc has more range and doesn't get ***** by his own lack of aerial mobility. Luigi isn't much worse than doc, but its pretty clear that doc is above him.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Go back to playing Brawl.

Nah, Brawl's ****.

I don't mean to be crude, but you don't think that after 10 years of solidifying a metagame, we don't have an inkling of understanding when it comes to character potential? You're wrong.

10 years spent developing the meta-game of top tier characters.

Yoshi sucks, bottom tier. Yes, even in spite of VectorMan being an extremely good player who is able to minimize Yoshi's weaknesses and maximize his limited strengths, doesn't change the actual character data.

I admitted I was wrong about Yoshi in my last post when I thought him over some more.

Pikachu is low tier, in spite of Axe placing 4th. Character results are -one- aspect of weighing potential, don't disregard the other areas. Look at frame data, matchup spreads, and movesets. Both must be accounted for in order to properly paint an accurate picture.

I completely ignored character results for my list because I don't see the point. Is this supposed to be a list of how good the characters are, or how well they do in tournaments?

How did Axe place 4th if Pikachu is low tier?

And shouldn't his Falco, who he puts just as much time into, be the best in the world if he is so good with a low tier?

Do you see any other Pikachu's or Yoshi's? No? Do they have good matchups? Not really, well, that's because aforementioned characters are garbage.

Doesn't matter how many people play the character. I only care about how good they are.

pichu- those moves you listed all have almost no range. none of them even have more range than shiek's jab (maybe fsmash). Give me one pichu combo that leads into a KO move or an edgeguard at a realistic percent.

The lack of range is made up for by Pichu's speed, good wave-dash, insanely low landing lag and Agility dashing.

Combos against spacies: Up Throw > Up Smash > Up Air (juggle as many times as you want) > Nair/Dair

Alternatively, could end the juggle with a descending fair > up smash. Throw in some up tilts and re-grabs for good measure.

Against floaties:
Nair chains,
bair > nair and vice versa,
uair > descending fair > anything.
Dthrow > anything.

bowser- that exact same argument can be made for the ganon vs falco match-up, yet ganon clearly has a possibility for winning.

Um... no, Ganondorf has an AMAZING aerial game. Bowser doesn't. Bowser has fair, that's it.

Luigi and doc are clearly not the same though. Idk what match-ups ur talking about, but Doc has more range and doesn't get ***** by his own lack of aerial mobility. Luigi isn't much worse than doc, but its pretty clear that doc is above him.

Doc has more range, Luigi is faster. I don't want to definitely say one is definitely better based on differences like that, which is why they are tied.

 

[Crooked Crow]

I completely ignored character results for my list because I don't see the point. Is this supposed to be a list of how good the characters are, or how well they do in tournaments?

How did Axe place 4th if Pikachu is low tier?

Because those two aspects are correlated to each other? Interesting you're saying this now, as your entire argument revolves around tournament results, and nothing else of substance.

And shouldn't his Falco, who he puts just as much time into, be the best in the world if he is so good with a low tier?

Because Axe isn't the best Falco in the world? The best Pikachu, yes, and he still doesn't win nationals, although he is an extremely good, top player.

Doesn't matter how many people play the character. I only care about how good they are.

Aren't you a Pichu main?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Grim, dude, you don't really know what ur talking about bro. Half that stuff you posted about pichu doesn't work if the opponent DIs and the other half doesn't work if they hold L/R between hits. Also, none of that lead into a KO move or edgeguard like i requested. All of your arguments are based on oversimplifications and ignorance of real experience. You are welcome to your opinion, but you aren't convincing anyone by ignoring facts.

 

[Crooked Crow]

He needs to analyze and study Melee a lot more.

Tournament representation doesn't equate to character viability, you must weigh both criteria.

Axe is an outlier, not many players are of a high enough caliber to place extremely high in nationals with a low tier. But there it is.. The character itself is limited, all bias aside, very good players can break through these significant limitations and sharpen a dull sword into a very sharp one.

It doesn't mean everything. We know if there's a top Kirby, that Kirby himself is the worst character in the game, just by his mechanics, options, and data alone.

 

[KAOSTAR]

mewtwo and zelda are definitely better than roy or yoshi. **** the bull ****.

dk is in no way tied with pikachu lmao aka mid tier fox.

why do people keep bringing up parrying as if every single character who haas the ability to jump oos can't powershield.

afterdawn-*****s don't sdi out of falco combos to the point where ppl considerplaying fox because he haas "easier auto combos". ppl sdi out of up throw up air, asdi out of drill to bull ****, combo di out of nair plane, and sdi wave shines way more often than people get out of falco combos. often times vs falco u just hold away cuz soft/reverse neutral ****ed the game up for all the playas and pimps. not to mention most falco combos get dropped because falco shined too early or made a split second decision and chose the wrong move.

again mewtwo is better than roy and yoshi, zelda is better than m2 roy and yoshi. bowser has up b oos and you can't aerial his shield at all.

edit: pichu *****. only he can't kill and dies too easily. pichu would be aight with a move that had good horizontal KB and range that he could combo into. lowest tier 4 sure.

 

[Thoraxe]

Luigi and doc are clearly not the same though. Idk what match-ups ur talking about, but Doc has more range and doesn't get ***** by his own lack of aerial mobility. Luigi isn't much worse than doc, but its pretty clear that doc is above him.

what moves out range luigi's WD Ftilt? Luigi's aerial mobility may be a problem off stage (so is all of the mario bros) but given any platforms his aerial mobility is fine. Doc may have a killer Fsmash, cape, and pill, but Luigi's aerials > doc's, and his silly WD speed not only plays into tech chasing/combos, but gives him a a great spacing game for poking opponents. i think doc and luigi are even maybe luigi a little above doc.

 

[Strong Badam]

my biggest concern with Grim Tuesday's list is that Popo is on it. wtf? I had to read through it like 8 times before I realized how there were 27 characters ignoring your master hand joke.

KAOSTAR: as I said, DK and Pika are either tied or Pika is above him. additionally I think you're overrating Mewtwo because of players able to outplay people with a worse character.

Thoraxe: wd ftilt also comes out frame 18. despite its range, it's a significan commitment as opposed to say, sh bair waveland ftilt with Doc. Range is also not the defining factor of a character; see: Pikachu.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I don't think mewtwo is higher than roy, but i dont think roy is much better than mewtwo. Low tier marth > low tier samus.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Because those two aspects are correlated to each other? Interesting you're saying this now, as your entire argument revolves around tournament results, and nothing else of substance.

No it doesn't...?

Because Axe isn't the best Falco in the world? The best Pikachu, yes, and he still doesn't win nationals, although he is an extremely good, top player.

If he can do so well with a bad character (as everyone is saying "an outlier"), it stands to reason that he should also be AMAZING with Falco, if he put the practice in.

Aren't you a Pichu main?

I use him in low tiers and friendlies. I main Ice Climbers and Falco.

Grim, dude, you don't really know what ur talking about bro. Half that stuff you posted about pichu doesn't work if the opponent DIs and the other half doesn't work if they hold L/R between hits.

Sorry, what Pichu experience do you have?

I do that **** all the time, it works.

Also, none of that lead into a KO move or edgeguard like i requested.

Um... they ended in smashes and nairs/dairs... i.e. KO moves and set-ups for edge-guards.

All of your arguments are based on oversimplifications and ignorance of real experience. You are welcome to your opinion, but you aren't convincing anyone by ignoring facts.

I can accept this.

my biggest concern with Grim Tuesday's list is that Popo is on it. wtf? I had to read through it like 8 times before I realized how there were 27 characters ignoring your master hand joke.

More information = better.

Can you think of a reason not to have Popo?

 

[Strong Badam]

he isn't a character. you cannot select him without AR, and AR isn't allowed in tournament. therefore, he is irrelevant.
Chu Dat would enter Low Tier tourneys and kill nana on purpose each stock, but that's about it.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Who cares if you can select them normally? You can play as Popo in the game without Nana, so he is a character.

That's kind of cheating cause Popo isn't low tier, but whatever Silly Chu.

 

[KAOSTAR]

Im def not overrating M2, He is still bad....but he is better than Roy, who is also bad. Its easy to severely(a lil exaggerated) underrate a character that you dont understand, but its really hard to out hype the truth. M2 isnt very good, neither is roy young link or zelda, yoshi or ness, bowser, kirby, or pichu-but Its easier to underrate what these characters are capable of because unlike top tiers who you seen in every melee video or play yourself, these are often forgotten and rarely have good players dedicated to mastering them.

and yes we agree, pikachu is better than Donkey Kong.

 

[Crooked Crow]

Axe plays one character good, doesn't automatically mean that he can play a higher ranked character just as well, despite putting considerably less effort and time into his Falco than his Pikachu.

And yes, they go hand in hand. Discuss facts and observation too, stop relying on theorycrafting for your entire thesis.

 

[Dimitris]

Edit: nevermind

 

[Deleted member]

popo by himself is still low tier. a single IC has so so many problems and is probably about as good as mewtwo alone.

pichu isn't the worst. it's probably kirby realistically.

yoshi is really ****ing bad. i don't think it's really possible to underrate yoshi.

mewtwo is definitely worse than roy. at least roy has a DD and edge guard game. mewtwo has absolutely nothing going for him.

 

[x After Dawn x]

roy has an edgeguard game? i agree that he's probably better than mewtwo but i don't see how he has an edgeguard game, he's not marth.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Roy definitely has an edgeguard game. His fsmash and neutral b alone can cover virtually any option and dtilt combos into those if they di toward the stage.

Kirby may be worse than pichu, I suppose, but pichu is still garbage of garbage tier lololol

 

[N64]

Dunno why people are saying axe isn't an amazing falco, among the best. You people are silly.

Pikachu is fine where he is, I honestly don't think you could put him above doc/samus/drmario and I don't think he's worse than anyone below him (mayyyybe mario).

 

[Crooked Crow]

Nobody here ever said Axe's Falco was bad. His Pikachu, in terms of relevant metagame potential, is a lot more developed.

That is all. Axe is a monster, he could play several characters at top level, in my opinion.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I do believe pikachu deserves to move up. He has weakness attacking down but he can't be cc ***** and his damage output is quite high when executed properly. I think mid tier along with samus ganon and doc is a perfect place for the small rat.

 

[Deleted member]

I do believe pikachu deserves to move up. He has weakness attacking down but he can't be cc ***** and his damage output is quite high when executed properly. I think mid tier along with samus ganon and doc is a perfect place for the small rat.

pretty much.

also roy's edge guarding is ****.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Pikachu has some neat things going for him. For one, he actually has a recovery sometimes.

Now that I know Sheik's CG only goes to 40 on him I don't think that specific technique holds him back as much as it used to (IMHO). A lot of characters can do 60% on Pikachu in one go and they've never really been considered unwinnable.

Pikachu also has a decent (if not clunky) punishment game. Launching people into horizontal juggles is good. The fact that his U-smash KOs at such low percents and he has his beastly gimp Uair makes escaping his stuff really hard once he gets started.

 

[Vts]

he isn't a character. you cannot select him without AR, and AR isn't allowed in tournament.

Read this as arkansas isn't allowed in tournaments lol

silly me :D.