Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List

[N64]

As long as ICs are 8th, you guys can do whatever you want with this thing.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

ICs will forever be 8th


edit- until its discovered they have a YYG-esq full screen grab lol

 

[KirbyKaze]

Hmm interesting. Do you think spacies are the two best characters, inside the tier?

I'm currently undecided on this. Probably, though.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

What are your views on peach? Do you think she is significantly worse than the others?

 

[KirbyKaze]

I feel she has a lot of losing matchups amongst the top characters. Marth, Fox, Sheik, Falcon, Puff are all unfavorable for her in varying degrees (IMHO).

For the moment I have her in high tier, instead of top tier.

I feel overall her weaknesses (namely her run speed, clunky jump, etc.) aren't things that are covered as easily as the other top characters' weaknesses. Falco's susceptibility to death grabs can be mitigated by playing to not get hit by them, in the same way that Sheik's poor aerial mobility can be covered by her good platform game and by doing the bulk of your spacing on the ground. Peach doesn't really have a cure (at the moment) for her poor movement (IMHO).

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I think the way armada plays is correct. Peach can't catch them because of her speed, but she can trap and she has the ability to trade at worst in most situations. As long as you don't get frustrated because of the camping and just space and zone right there should be no openings to attack.

I consider her in the same group as marth and sheik, though at the bottom; her match-ups speak for themselves. Peach is definitely better than falcon, imo.

 

[Strong Badam]

I also think that Peach is better than Falcon. Falcon's main issue is his lack of options while recovering, and that is a huge issue in this game. Fox/Falco are easy to gimp, but at the same time they still have options.
He also gets camped even with that ridiculous run speed o_O

 

[KirbyKaze]

I think Falcon's biggest issue is that he's only got one or two real forms of defense and a terrible offense. He's a really limited character. Add in that he's relatively fragile and issues arise.

Sveet, I am aware of how Peach works at high level. I don't think any Peach should attempt such a chase (except in a few situations) because obviously it's going to fail. She lacks the speed to rush down outright so she has to trap. That said, I still think Armada's style and use of the character still makes her high tier, not top tier. Her matchups are poor comparatively and even with a style that prepares for multiple options, she can rarely cover them all.

 

[Divinokage]

KK, when you say Falcon has terrible offensive you mean when the opponent isn't knockdowned right? Because I mean with that logic, most characters have **** offense lol.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Most characters have terrible offense. Like probably 15+ characters have horrific offense.

Anyone's good when the opponent has one attack, two rolls, one stand, the ability to stay still, and no other options.

edit: this is why most bad characters stick to defensive play btw.

 

[Divinokage]

Well I don't know, most jabs are damn good for mix-ups and you've got nair, fair.. and spaced tilts even. I mean it's not that bad. =P

 

[KirbyKaze]

I respectfully disagree.

Jabbing in this game creates a giant hole in a pressure sequence unless you're super spaced (character dependent; sometimes this doesn't matter) or one of the few characters with a good jab. It's used mostly because the bulk of the cast doesn't have an alternative for catching jumps or whatever, and even then it can get you punished (crouch cancel / floaty staus > Nair sooo goood).

I'm not going to address the rest of your post because Fairs and spaced tilts change dynamically across characters (jabs can be kind of generic). Nairs tend to be kind of generic but aerial mobility greatly influences one's ability to make aerial approaches (this also affects Fair's value). So I don't think I'd be able to talk about it in a general sense.

If you're going to make a "I'm the warrior, logic doesn't matter" post, though, I'm going to kindly ask for you to do it now so I'll know whether this is a subject worth pursuing.

 

[john!]

If you're going to make a "I'm the warrior, logic doesn't matter" post, though, I'm going to kindly ask for you to do it now so I'll know whether this is a subject worth pursuing.

oh wow. LOL this is amazing.

on topic: peach and falcon are so radically different that comparing them directly to see who is better is kind of a dumb exercise. peach is a bit better overall i think, but they probably belong in the same tier right next to each other.

and how can you say that falcon has a terrible offense?

 

[Walt]

Because approaching with falcon is terrible. Once he gets a clean hit he's fine but he has a lot of risk doing anything at neutral game, his punishes are pretty much all of falcons game against good character.

 

[KirbyKaze]

and how can you say that falcon has a terrible offense?

Because Falcon can't approach any of the top characters except like Fox (and that varies depending which top Falcon you ask).

edit:

If Ice Climbers count as a top character then I'll add them. But seriously he sucks at approaching Sheik, Marth, Falco, Puff, and Peach.

 

[Walt]

Falcon can't even approach himself. That match should seriously be DD for 8 minutes. No lie.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I find the aggressive Falcons (at top level) have always been the ones that win Falcon dittos in tournament no matter how much the paperwork says it should be "Gayer Falcon wins ggnore".

 

[Walt]

KK go read that space animals don't exist thread I wanna see you tear that guy up.

 

[KirbyKaze]

But it's clearly a troll post. If you respond seriously, they win.

 

[Walt]

But I'm really hoping he's 12 and spent like, 3 hours writing that out completely unprovoked.

 

[KirbyKaze]

That's the dream but at this point (esp. after reading his replies) I'm pretty sure this is a case of SWF being awful at detecting trolling even when it's right in front of them.

 

[Ripple]

do you guys think it'd make more sense if falcon was in B tier since he isn't on the same level of marth?

 

[Strong Badam]

sheik isnt on the same level as fox falco puff but theyre in the same tier. lol

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I dont think puff is on the same level as fox falco and sheik, but thats just my opinion lol

 

[x After Dawn x]

tiers = tournament viability, not a classification of which characters are better than others. every character at the top of a tier is on a "different level" than the character at the bottom of the same tier; if you were apply this same logic to every character, then there wouldn't be a point in having tiers in the first place because no two characters are ever identical in that aspect.

now, if there were no number averages, then i would agree that tiers would play a much larger role, but that isn't the case and tiers weren't even included as measurements of BR players' averages when factored into the making of this list; the numbers were just sorted out and then they decided to tier them afterwards with a very vague criterion on how they did so

 

[john!]

i'm pretty sure tiers are a way of differentiating small differences (doc/ganon) from large differences (ic's/doc). "better characters" and "viability" are the same thing.

 

[x After Dawn x]

if you want to put it that way, then i suppose so. i could just as easily perceive tournament viability (and therefore tiers) as viability according to character results that are significant in recent tournaments, instead of creating abstract cutoffs that make it relatively difficult to define the "large differences" apart from the "small differences" that you say. the way i see it, the order of characters is more easily distinguishable through relativity than classification through groups, since characters represent themselves distinctly instead of a tier representing an unclear set of characteristics across multiple characters.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

So since the tier list is based on results, pikachu is going to be in the top 5 next time around. Just wanted to let u guys know.

 

[x After Dawn x]

that's not even close to what i said but ok. i meant it as a way of, for example, placement results of falco are compared to puff's and falco has significantly more tournament wins; therefore, the tier cutoff is there.

i didn't say anything about results factoring to the order of the list.

 

[Ripple]

I don't know why you're arguing about what a tier list really is or what should constitute a tier difference. I have a feeling you knew what we meant considering its been said many times before

 

[CaptainFalcon9000]

i´m still thinking jiggs should be under captain falcon, and now i´m a smash journeyman thanks to this post

 

[Vts]

Hey ICs are just lonely being only one in their tier lol

 

[Strong Badam]

This is my list if anyone cares. If I had to make a real list I'd probably decide on the ties but here it is. If anyone cares for me to justify placings I'm willing to. My opinion is subject to change when new information is available.

Falco
Fox
Sheik / Puff
Marth
Peach
Falcon
Ice Climbers
Ganondorf
Doc / Samus
DK / Pikachu
Luigi
Mario
Link
Young Link
Yoshi
Roy / Mewtwo / Zelda
Mr. Game & Watch
Bowser
Ness
Kirby
Pichu

 

[stingers]

you would have dk tied with pikachu

 

[Ripple]

DK should be a tier below pika.

and roy is much worse than zelda

 

[Strong Badam]

pika is either tied with dk or above him, but DK isn't higher. idk yet.

i have little roy & zelda exp so they're iffy on my list

 

[john!]

i thought doc had better matchups than ganon? and shroomed is #1 in norcal. why is ganon a step above doc/samus?

and i would argue for fox above falco, but you probably have a really good reason for switching them, so w/e.

 

[Divinokage]

i thought doc had better matchups than ganon? and shroomed is #1 in norcal. why is ganon a step above doc/samus?

and i would argue for fox above falco, but you probably have a really good reason for switching them, so w/e.

I don't really agree that Doc has better matchups, it's as hard or even harder overall to overcome every matchup with Doc, I'm pretty sure.

 

[Strong Badam]

i thought doc had better matchups than ganon? and shroomed is #1 in norcal. why is ganon a step above doc/samus?

Matchups != tournament viability.
For example Sheik overall has better matchups than anyone because she ***** low tiers but still Falco/Fox are better in tourney.
Additionally, I think Doc has a better matchup against Sheik than Ganon does, but Ganon does better against IC's and Marth.

and i would argue for fox above falco, but you probably have a really good reason for switching them, so w/e.

Consistency. Top level Fox's peak level controlled by a human is slightly higher than top level Falco's peak, however Falco's top level average is marginally better than Fox's top level average.
In other words, Falco is more consistently the best character while Fox is of similar viability but not as consistent due to the player factor in tournament.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Does any of that mean anything, really?

I thought falco was better because his combos are more consistent and his ability to zone the stage is really solid.