Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List

[Rostigalen]

Whenever you want the next tier list, just ask Hax or Pink Reaper...22 of 26 "right" placements. DrPP got 11/11 as well, so yeah...

 

[Bing]

yeah, should have just bumped the IC's up and everyone could also move up a letter...

 

[Roneblaster]

dont think it would change anything, but the MW is well represented in this voting.

 

[Slhoka]

Whenever you want the next tier list, just ask Hax or Pink Reaper...22 of 26 "right" placements. DrPP got 11/11 as well, so yeah...

The closest to the average list is indeed Hax (and by far). Then it's N64 and Skler.
The farthest is forward, followed by Mike G.

By the way, I fixed the mistakes someone pointed out (can't remember who, but thanks to him).
I also sorted the individual votes occording to the average list, to make it a bit easier to read. And I added the .numbers file, that I forgot last time. For those who use iWork, open this file, it's the most convenient

 

[Rostigalen]

The closest to the average list is indeed Hax (and by far). Then it's N64 and Skler.
The farthest is forward, followed by Mike G.

In the .pdf, Pink Reaper only got Mewtwo, Young Link, Zelda and Roy placed wrong, how can he not be closer than N64 who got 11 characters in the wrong place?

 

[rhan]

Jiggs should be in top of A tier.

In S tier it should be:

Fox/Falco
Falco/Fox
Marth
Sheik

Everything else is perfect.

Except for the fact that Dr. Mario is above Ganon and Samus.

That should go:

Ganon
Samus
Dr.

 

[N64]

There are a few things I'd like to make understood. Most of this is already in the OP or addressed elsewhere in this thread, but some still seemed to have missed it.

This list was voted on by MBR members. Everyone in the MBR was given generous time to vote (over a month, maybe even two). All votes are considered equally. If you don't see the name of someone you expected up there, they either aren't in the MBR, chose not to vote, or weren't on smashboards since october.

As such, it is of the general opinions of the MBR primarily. While we kept recent tourney performance firstmost in priority, everyone has their own idea of how much that should matter compared to other aspects (matchup theorycraft, particular matches/players/etc). Thus yes, overall it is a compilation of opinions from assumed knowledgeable players with these values in mind. If you would like a tierlist based entirely on matchups, there's the matchup chart in this same forum. If you want one based entirely on tournament performance, there is also a thread on that.

Tier separations were constructed from logical gaps in the data. We did not decide on the number of tiers before voting.

A ton of other statistical information is provided in the OP. I find it all pretty interesting, and I hope you do too! :D
I have a ton of respect for slhoka, tero, and everyone else involved for the effort they've put into this project.

 

[Roneblaster]

The closest to the average list is indeed Hax (and by far).

all i heard was falcon players are the smartest

 

[Slhoka]

In the .pdf, Pink Reaper only got Mewtwo, Young Link, Zelda and Roy placed wrong, how can he not be closer than N64 who got 11 characters in the wrong place?

I made this ranking using the sum of the differences between the ranking given to each character and their average ranking. Since averages are not integers, it means that someone placing a character at the wrong place can be closer to its average ranking than someone who ranked him at the right place.
However, the ranking I made was a bit outdated (I was still missing a few votes back then), and while Hax is still the closest, PR is indeed second, his score being only a bit lower than N64.

N64 : Thank you.

Also, I have much more data regarding tier lists (not necessarily this one). I'll post it sooner or later, when I'll give them some meaning.

Edit :

all i heard was falcon players are the smartest

Not necessarily true. g-reg is average.
I could do stats about that to see which mains and which regions are the closest, but it would be biased because some have many more people. I would also be doing stats abouts stats about stats, and I'm not enough into inception to do that.

 

[stingers]

lol @ mario being in the middle

awesome

 

[Mew2King]

Okay.

Let's say I have a game with n characters and I have a match-up chart with the characters for that game; since there are some slight variations in what a match-up chart's numbers mean, let's say the number in the row for character A and column for character B represents A's chance of beating B in a bo3 set using current tournament rules, assuming both players of each character are at the top level of play and know the match-up. I want to rank the characters solely based on how they perform against each other; an intuitive idea about how to do this would be to have the match-ups against characters that seem "good" in some sense count more than the match-ups against other characters. To make this more precise, we do the following:

First, label the characters c_1, c_2, ..., c_n and create an nxn matrix P whose i,j-th entry is c_i's chance of beating c_j, taken from the match-up chart; let p_i,j denote the i,j-th entry of P. As a first approximation for how good the characters are, we look at p_i,1 + p_i,2 + ... + p_i,n for each i between 1 and n, i.e. for each character, we find the sum of his/her/its odds of winning against all characters (including itself). Note that if we let X be the nx1 vector whose entries are all 1, then PX is a column vector whose i-th entry is the first approximation of how good c_i is. Let A_1 = PX.

For the second approximation, we do something similar, except that we want the match-ups against the characters that are good from the first approximation to have more weight than the match-ups against the ones that aren't. Let a_i denote the i-th entry of A_1 for each i. Now for each i, we take (a_1)(p_i,1)+(a_2)(p_i,2)+...+(a_n)(p_i,n) as the second approximation of how good c_i is. Note that the i-th entry of the vector P*A_1 is the second approximation for how good c_i is, and let A_2 = P*A_1. Note that A_2 = (P^2)X.

Iterating this procedure, we let A_m = (P^m)X for m>=3. The behavior of the sequence (A_m) varies a lot by P. What actually happens to each individual entry of A_m as m goes to infinity isn't very interesting on its own; what is interesting is what happens to the entries relative to each other. For example, in a game with 2 characters in which c_1 beats c_2 100% of the time, both entries of A_m tend to 0 as m approaches infinity, but c_2's entry approaches 0 much faster than c_1's does. Thus, instead of looking at the long term behavior of (A_m), we do the following: for each positive integer m, let s_m be the maximum entry of A_m. Let Q_m = (1/s_m)A_m. In other words, Q_m tells you how good each character is as of the m-th approximation relative to the best character(s) as of the m-th approximation. It turns out that the sequence (Q_m) does almost always converge, and the vector Q that it converges to provides a nice way of ranking the characters.

The proof that (Q_m) converges unless this one odd condition pops up is kind of ugly and tedious, so I won't go into that here; even the statement of that one condition is messy.

Anyways, in practice, it shouldn't be too hard to find a decent approximation of Q; just use Mathematica or something like that to find A_m for some decently large m and then find Q_m from there. I'd also check Q_(m+1) and maybe a few other later values to see if anything odd happens, but I think the condition for the failure of this procedure is improbable.

It's also worth mentioning that this method can lead to some results which might intuitively seem odd. For example, if you have a game with three characters and c_1 has guaranteed wins against c_2 and c_3, and c_2 has a guaranteed win against c_3, then this procedure gives c_1 the value 1 and both c_2 and c_3 get 0. This might seem strange since c_2 has strictly better match-ups than c_3, but it makes sense since c_2 is worthless in the sense that its only winning match-up is against a character that is clearly worthless.

LOL that's the funniest thing I ever ****ing read

 

[GHNeko]

 

[JPOBS]

The closest to the average list is indeed Hax (and by far).

Thats cuz Hax is the mother ****ing truth.

 

[darkatma]

Lol i remember the days of "last MBR tier list"

 

[Taj278]

inb4midwestsux

though cosmo beat kels

kels beat taj

oh snap

do we have some inui logic in the making?

My Mewtwo beat Kels.

Kels beat my Marth.

 

[S l o X]

My Mewtwo beat Kels.

Kels beat my Marth.

Pound 4 ?

 

[ETWIST51294]

The only thing I dont agree with is Mario being SOOOOO ****ing far away from Doc. Theyre almost the same character. Theyre so closely related that Doc players can play Mario just as well.

 

[~Twitch~]

it's all bout dat tourney results.

there are a couple docs placing well but there are really zero marios anymore.

 

[Ocean]

The only thing I dont agree with is Mario being SOOOOO ****ing far away from Doc. Theyre almost the same character.

that's like saying that fox and falco are almost the same character.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I am not MBR anymore.

 

[Stevo]

it's all bout dat tourney results.

there are a couple docs placing well but there are really zero marios anymore.

could be because mario is under represented because Doc is seen as superior.

but either way, results are results, though Id like to see someone (besides Scorp) take mario for a ride

 

[ETWIST51294]

that's like saying that fox and falco are almost the same character.

ORLY? Care to explain? Cause DogySamich wrote a big *** wall of green telling me otherwise. I could find the thread if you like.

Edit: BTW Doc and Mario differences

Doc has a better kill move, a better projectile game, and his usmash is more of a combo move.

Mario has a better combo game, a better fsmash for spacing, and a slightly better recovery.

Fox and Falco diffs

Shine, dair, uair, side b, firefox, nair, uthrow, lazors, usmash, fsmash, dtilt, and utilt are all COMPLETELY different. The only kinda similar ones are the utilt and the nair.

I dont see where youre getting at.

 

[x After Dawn x]

mario and doc are more similar to each other than fox and falco

 

[Roneblaster]

i agree with the last two posts.


but **** everything character that has a cape.

 

[Druggedfox]

Uhhh doc's edgeguarding is also significantly better, which is sort of a big part of the game... but w/e

 

[Vex Kasrani]

Fox number one, ****.

 

[ETWIST51294]

Uhhh doc's edgeguarding is also significantly better, which is sort of a big part of the game... but w/e

How? I actually dont know.

 

[Mew2King]

Bair is like, the reason Doc is much better than Mario

that move alone

+ down smash and pills and dair

the stuff mario's better in hardly matters for winning

 

[SleepyK]

I am not MBR anymore.

where do i make my threads about loving luigi now

 

[ETWIST51294]

I totally forgot Docs bair sends chars at a lower angle. I need to play this game again. >_>

 

[KirbyKaze]

where do i make my threads about loving luigi now

sheik board

 

[otg]

Edit: BTW Doc and Mario differences

Doc has a better kill move, a better projectile game, and his usmash is more of a combo move.

Mario has a better combo game, a better fsmash for spacing, and a slightly better recovery.

Seems like you're making some pretty general statements here. Every one of their moves (except for uair maybe?) have different properties (and I'll gladly go into detail on each one if you're interested), and some of them are pretty drastic

 

[KirbyKaze]

Their Uairs are different.

 

[Geist]

Doc is better :l

 

[MT_]

if its any consolation i voted her 7th

Lies.

The excel sheet with all the detailed information says you voted Puff 5th.

 

[The Star King]

Forward and Taj put Pikachu at #9. Everybody else put Pikachu at no higher than 12.

Dat AZ.

Axe himself put Pikachu at 14 though. The only person who placed Pikachu lower was G-Regulate.

 

[CloneHat]

I like how unknown, who actually knows stuff about Pichu, voted him at 22nd place.

Pichus represent!

 

[Megachuk]

This is probably the best official tier list ever. Some bottom tiers are a little screwy to me, but who cares... they're bottom tier

 

[Acryte]

well Forward and Taj play against him, note that players who main a character who isn't fox generally place them lower than the people they play against. Who knows the theoretical matchup and the character weaknesess better than them so usually they think their character is worse or weaker than the general concensus.

 

[IYM!]

the only thing that i want, is see Link in the mid tier