Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List

[KirbyKaze]

If her moves are really good, her other character traits must be incredibly flawed.

She's slow running, high traction with a long jump startup so her WL and WD suck, her DJ is tiny, she's floaty, her FJ doesn't reach the high top platforms iirc (not 100% on the last one). She has no grab so her basic OOS is limited to attacks, which is limited by u-smash being SDIable and not working vs an important character (Fox), and aerials (which is hindered by slow jump, high SH, no sex kick, etc).

These are pretty problematic traits when the opponent decides to abuse mobility advantage or just play above her.

 

[Deleted member]

her grab is actually not as terrible as you'd think considering that her throws are pretty good and that most people just block you a lot of the time.

zelda's first and last problem is just mobility pretty much. she isn't a fan of shield camping, but she can usually beat that. dashdancing is just no.

 

[Kink-Link5]

To bad, our results based tier list clearly shows Squirtle is and always will do more poorly than most characters in the game.

Peach is the best character in Melee because results. You're delusional to think that Fox or heaven forbid Falco are better than her.

If Peach is consistently winning at such a level that the character would get more points than Fox or Falco, then yes. This would be the case. Personal feeling is irrelevant to success. It would have to be weighted properly and observed over a period of time, but it is entirely possible.

That's the cool thing about recording data. It doesn't care what you think, it's just right.

It's been used for like 4 years and has been more accurate than the Melee tier lists for their entire existence, so... eh. :B

Peach for SSS+ tier. There's no way this flawless reasoning could be wrong; every Melee player including myself, M2K, KK, and all other member of the MBR are wrong but this Overswarm guy has the real truth about how inheritly bad and wrong our tierlist is grouping Peach with Marth instead of at the tippity top of the tier list above Fox and Falco.

Also YL for A Tier.

 

[choknater]

young link 2013

 

[Bones0]

her grab is actually not as terrible as you'd think considering that her throws are pretty good and that most people just block you a lot of the time.

zelda's first and last problem is just mobility pretty much. she isn't a fan of shield camping, but she can usually beat that. dashdancing is just no.

What do you think of Zelda vs. Falco? I thought I remembered you saying she actually wins, but I figured you were exaggerating or taking into account Falco not knowing the matchup, so I'm curious as to what you actually think about it.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Falco definitely wins, but zelda can do stuff too. I mean if she manages to land a grab, she can cg him and/or uthrow -> kick. I doubt falco is really in danger pressuring her shield, but she can kick him if he's being dumb.

 

[Deleted member]

What do you think of Zelda vs. Falco? I thought I remembered you saying she actually wins, but I figured you were exaggerating or taking into account Falco not knowing the matchup, so I'm curious as to what you actually think about it.

prior to playing mango and kevin, i beat all of the falcos at some time or another. when i lost to mango and kevin, i acknowledged that i had been outplayed rather that outcharacter'd. take that as you will.

 

[Stevo]

run forward (slowly) to powershield laser grab with zelda is pretty hilarious for some reason.

 

[odinNJ]

falco can easily out camp zelda, as long as he is careful with his spacing he wins (as a few kicks can be death).

 

[Bones0]

Not sure how he can camp her. It's not like he's much faster, and you'll get kicked eventually just jumping around with lasers.

 

[choknater]

full hop dat top platform

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Wut bones? Falco can definitely camp her. He may have to engage occasionally, but he can make it stupid hard for her.

 

[Bones0]

I think those occasional engagements will fall heavily in Zelda's favor if Falco is just focused on lasering constantly. You can't even laser properly if you're constantly jumping and falling to different planes on the stage, and you'd need about 10 lasers to match even one of her kicks (not even considering that a kick has actual followups unlike laser camping). So you can camp her for 90% of the match, but the 10% you have to engage will sway the match in Zelda's favor anyway so it seems rather misleading to say "Falco can out-camp Zelda." If someone actually thinks Falco can win the matchup by beating Zelda in the attrition game, I'd be interested to hear how it should play out.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

You just need the right mindset. The focus isn't to rack up damage as much as look for opportunities where zelda is out of position and capitalizing

 

[Bones0]

That isn't what camping is... unless you consider every decent player ever a camper.

 

[choknater]

when i 'camp' zelda i definitely try to run away, camp the top platform, and laser when necessary to force shield, power shield, or nayru. i laser at a distance outside of dash attack range so she can pretty much do nothing but nayru or jump. not a hard position to gain

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

That isn't what camping is... unless you consider every decent player ever a camper.

I do, besides like mango (who still does sometimes)

Camping is essentially abusing your mobility or projectile advantage to the ends of fighting on your terms. Think: dash dance camping, platform camping

 

[Bones0]

Camping is just straight up not approaching from virtually every time I've ever heard it used in any game setting. If someone is camping in Halo, it doesn't mean they are waiting for an opportunity to rush an area. It means they are just waiting for the opponent to approach them and simply countering that action. A Puff that WoPs is camping. A Puff that spaces bairs until she has a good approach isn't camping.

But whatever, there's no point in arguing semantics. If your definition of camping is essentially "play smart", then saying Falco can beat Zelda because he can "camp" her is practically circular. Falco can camp Zelda because he is able to abuse his mobility and projectile => Falco can camp Zelda because Falco can camp Zelda.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

If someone is camping in Halo, it doesn't mean they are waiting for an opportunity to rush an area. It means they are just waiting for the opponent to approach them and simply countering that action.

In other words, they are waiting in order to fight on their own terms and killing the opponent for getting out of position.

My definition isn't "play smart", though playing smart oftentimes is camping. No shame in that.

 

[Bones0]

Fair enough. What sort of opportunities arise when Falco laser camps Zelda? Does he get shield grabs? DD/WD back grabs? Can he punish spaced toes? Can he force any sort of overextension from Zelda at all? What defensive opportunities open up when he laser camps? The only way I see it playing out in my mind is the match becoming weak lasers with no followups vs. spaced toes that are virtually unpunishable on shield or whiff and can be used well in between lasers.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Idk how to explain it to you in words right now, but I could show you if we played. Basically it just comes down to falco having a much stronger punish, better mobility, and lasers. He can control the flow of the game and really all zelda can do is hope falco overextends. Theres also a few tricks/exploits falco specifically has, but I won't reveal

 

[Ripple]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WzKU3ONCOyo

zelda wins

 

[MountainGoat]

Why are there few zelda players? She seems just about as good or better as DK, Link or Yoshi but it seems like all of those characters get way more people playing them. I feel like I see more Roy, GW and Bowser than I see of Zelda even.

 

[Xyzz]

Messed around with her some today against a new puff player in the area... and I think she's fun :D
Super one dimensional, but it's somehow incredibly funny to me to punish rests with exactly the move I've been spamming for the last two minutes anyways lol.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

Like roy is likely the worse in the game. But he's played a lot more than other low tiers even more than than ice climbers who mindlessly wreaks roy.

Zedla is really fun if they don't play right against her. Zedla is decent against peach, gannon, falco, ice climbers(debateable) and play sytle based falcon as well.

But for a slow air fighter compared to gannon she's still pretty outclassed in about every way but oos.

Match-up wise roy is the worse in this game he loses to kirby even.

 

[Bones0]

I have played several IC mains, but I've never played a Roy main even once. >_>

 

[Ripple]

we don't exist anymore

 

[TheGoat]

Jigglypuff above sheik, wowz. That needs to be fixed.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Like roy is likely the worse in the game. But he's played a lot more than other low tiers even more than than ice climbers who mindlessly wreaks roy.

Zedla is really fun if they don't play right against her. Zedla is decent against peach, gannon, falco, ice climbers(debateable) and play sytle based falcon as well.

But for a slow air fighter compared to gannon she's still pretty outclassed in about every way but oos.

Match-up wise roy is the worse in this game he loses to kirby even.

Bowser loses to everyone including Roy though.

ITT: we talk about characters and matchups none to few players have ever played.

 

[ShroudedOne]

SK has been saying that for what seems like years, and nothing will change.

 

[Ziodyne]

does bowser lose to roy?
and yes, i do care, even though i shouldn't

 

[The Star King]

SK has been saying that for what seems like years, and nothing will change.

ShroudedOne is my bff in this thread.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

STAR KING///////////!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

I would like to know if bowser's mus are worse but to be fair can anyone suck that hard against gannon as roy can?

also bowser has an incredible 2nd jump, like if puff had jumps that fast she would be broken YOu couldn't ever keep up with her and just the mix-ups he gets from it are pretty sweet

 

[JPOBS]

^The return of the rightful King

 

[KirbyKaze]

Roy seems worse than G&W and a bunch of them because his attacks don't do much on paper but then you realize G&W and the aforementioned "bunch of them" have no real reliable way of getting hits in.

The only way I see this as being untrue is if we basically decide that Hax has had it right all along as that Battlefield is the only stage for tournament play. Because then almost every character in the game can lightshield on the top platform vs Roy if they get a clean stock lead and laugh at him for his badness as he spends a whole minute doing 30%. Eventually, Roy loses to time.

So if you like Roy, don't support prop 429. Roy's our boy; don't let the platforms win!

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

My biggest problem with watch is let's sayYou bait them into attacking or they make some kind of mistake. yeah that's great now YOu can do things.... crap watch's range as far as within time AND space is just awful. takes like 20 frames to have shffl move come out? fox's nair takes 7? just in that nutshell his start-up/general lag is more and more ugly.

where was I, I just watched jobs sig for 5 minutes.

but watch's only fast moves for quick punishes are really limited to up-B/down-B/jab/d-tilt/dash attack and covering where YOu need within the right time without being baited into a cc/shield is very hard.

but neat things like being able to do running turn around bairs and grounded pan clanking with peach's turnips to get free bacon's can be the little gimicks he sometimes needs.

that and the unGodly platform game he plays just know You can bair grab fox and bair bacon tech chase bair bacon tech chase can work on bf against floaties.

specail shoutout out to how horrible his upair is, sheik can di out at 20% and fair him in the face when he trys to juggle with it.

 

[Kink-Link5]

I think something special can be said about a character who's best move takes 20 frames to come out and has the strength of the worst F-smashes in the game.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

G&W fair hits frame 10..

 

[Bones0]

I think slow startup is definitely an issue for G&W, but his moves overall are great and not the reason he loses. He loses because of he is super light, has an awful shield, awful techs, is incapable of L-canceling bair/uair, and his B-moves are a waste of programming space. He is also forced into techs from some throws like Mario's dthrow, but idk if that's even that bad for most situations. Because his techs are so slow I'm gonna guess that it is. His actual attacks may be a bit slow, but their disjointedness largely makes up for that, and not all of his moves are slow in the first place. Utilt is really good and hits frame 9, and he has an absolutely godlike dtilt that hits frame 6. Uair hits frame 7, and bair/fair hit frame 10.

 

[DerfMidWest]

Roy sucks.
G&W is boss.
People underrate his bull****.