Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List

[Bones0]

Ken has always held that roy > marth

Idk man...

 

[odinNJ]

I like how Marth apparently struggles with low tiers now.

silly strongbad

Marth IS a low tier

#2014

 

[AlienAllen]

Great list Purpletuce. I would only make minor changes like moving Sheik to S tier, switching Marth and Puff, and some small low tier changes.

 

[Strong Badam]

anyway, i think this is my list for now

falco
fox
sheik
marth

puff
peach
falcon
ics

doc
pikachu
ganon
samus

then no one cares.

 

[Somaiah]

In all of the recent competitive smash videos I watch, Ganondorfs are essentially nonexistent, while Samus is appearing much more often than before. Is Ganon less viable than Samus now? Why would you put Ganon above Samus, SB? Is the lack prevalent Ganons because there aren't good players representing the character or because he's just not as popular? Ganon's game seems to be a lot more one-dimensional and lacking in defensive options (OoS, recovery, mobility) when compared to Samus, by a huge margin.

 

[Zoler]

Marth still hasn't and can't win a national.

 

[Theftz22]

But of course marth has won a national, in fact more nationals probably than any other character between Ken and m2k. He hasn't won any recently but that's more to do with players than characters.

PP's marth just beat m2k's sheik. A guy who just picked up marth as a secondary won marth's hardest match-up against the best sheik in the world. There's nothing stopping marth as a character from succeeding.

 

[strawhats]

But of course marth has won a national, in fact more nationals probably than any other character between Ken and m2k. He hasn't won any recently but that's more to do with players than characters.

PP's marth just beat m2k's sheik. A guy who just picked up marth as a secondary won marth's hardest match-up against the best sheik in the world. There's nothing stopping marth as a character from succeeding.

A certain yellow rat with a party says otherwise. At least according to Ken lol. I'd really like to see PPU (with more experience vs Pikachu)/PP's marth vs Axe.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Axe vs PP again would be cool.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

But of course marth has won a national, in fact more nationals probably than any other character between Ken and m2k. He hasn't won any recently but that's more to do with players than characters.

PP's marth just beat m2k's sheik. A guy who just picked up marth as a secondary won marth's hardest match-up against the best sheik in the world. There's nothing stopping marth as a character from succeeding.

Best sheik, debatable. Hardest match-up, most likely. There never was any restriction on marth in the first place. Only the person using him.

 

[Bones0]

Best sheik, debatable. Hardest match-up, most likely. There never was any restriction on marth in the first place. Only the person using him.

Mew2King having the best Sheik is not up for debate...

 

[Xyzz]

KK is super amazing, but yeah he isn't quite on the M2k level (yet).

 

[JPOBS]

I dislike when people say stuff like Marth is now a power contender again because PP beat M2k. Makes it seem like PP put on a dominant performance using marth when he really barely scraped out a win. Total game count as 5-3 in M2k's favor (in GF). Yes PP won the tournament but that hardly means marth is a stand alone national tournament winner (which we havent seen since like 2007)

kudos to Pp making some sick nasty adjustments though. His adaptability is remarkable.

I think it should also be noted that its unfair to delegate responsibility of the fall of marth solely to the lack of marth players like "marth is so good just that no one plays him!". It should also be taken into account that the reason people don't play marth is because the anti-marth metagame is highly developed because he was such a force in the early years, which is inversely proportional to the success rate of the character. i.e. Marth gets developed really early and becomes a top tournament char, other characters develop anti-marth strats, marth's success as a character falls as a result.

Interestingly, I think this is exactly what has happened to fox. The anti-fox metagame is so advanced now, that despite being arguably the best char on paper, its probably why fox hasn't won anything meaningful in like 7 years.

Moreover, I think this partially explains why certain standout players like Shroomed, Axe, Armada, and Hbox can be so successful. Their chars aren't as popular and so the anti-peach, anti-puff and anti-pikachu, anti-doc metagame isn't as universally developed as fox/falco/sheik/marth/falcon. That, along with them obviously being great players, summates to their success I think.

This turned into a much longer diatribe than I had intended.

 

[BTmoney]

anyway, i think this is my list for now

then no one cares.

Somebody gets it

 

[Blistering Speed]

Still can't believe people are using recent top level metagame confrontations as evidence of anything particularly tier or match-up related. It's player vs player interaction, everything else pales in significance to the point it shouldn't be used empirically.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Sheik's advantage vs Marth is probably overstated in a general sense. But yeah I just think PP is better than M2K and I and he's done a lot of work with the character and refined a lot of stuff specific to that matchup so of course he can overcome the matchup disadvantage.

 

[Theftz22]

Still can't believe people are using recent top level metagame confrontations as evidence of anything particularly tier or match-up related. It's player vs player interaction, everything else pales in significance to the point it shouldn't be used empirically.

If that were true then PP would be able to beat M2K with Kirby. He can't. QED.

Anyway I'm just talking about being able to win a national, not talking about matchup ratios etc.

I dislike when people say stuff like Marth is now a power contender again because PP beat M2k. Makes it seem like PP put on a dominant performance using marth when he really barely scraped out a win. Total game count as 5-3 in M2k's favor (in GF). Yes PP won the tournament but that hardly means marth is a stand alone national tournament winner (which we havent seen since like 2007)

Firstly its not just PP vs M2K, we can also look at Apex for things like M2K marth vs Mango falco (another one of marth's worst matchups) and PP marth vs Armada peach. Anyway yeah you can trivialize any one of these results individually (m2k also used sheik, armada won second set, etc), but all they show is that marth is still at least capable of winning at the highest level, the level that is required to win national tournaments. In his hardest matchups.

 

[john!]

people don't play marth because he is not an exciting character to play, not because he's bad

same reason people don't play puff

 

[Somaiah]

people don't play marth because he is not an exciting character to play, not because he's bad

same reason people don't play puff

Interestingly enough, I love playing Puff, but the people I play against despise playing the match-up. I find the spacing game of fighting against a Marth or Jiggs pretty cool, don't see why spacies triple shining each other is any more fun.

 

[john!]

i'm just talking about the average person. of course some people prefer that play style, but they are a minority.

 

[Blistering Speed]

If that were true then PP would be able to beat M2K with Kirby. He can't. QED.

Misrepresenting someone's position through hyperbole isn't a valid retort, kiddo.

 

[strawhats]

people don't play marth because he is not an exciting character to play, not because he's bad

same reason people don't play puff

Speak yourself man, the movement aspect of marth's game is one that makes him such a sublime and elegant character.

 

[Theftz22]

Misrepresenting someone's position through hyperbole isn't a valid retort, kiddo.

It's player vs player interaction, everything else pales in significance to the point it shouldn't be used empirically.

If everything else was so insignificant as to be empirically worthless, PP should win or at least get close with any character. Say player vs player accounts for 99%. That means there would only be less than 1% difference for PP choosing a terrible character, not enough to make that big of a difference. The lower you put the player vs player percent, the more you abandon your original position and hence admit that it was wrong. The higher you put it, the more obviously false it becomes. Either way, its wrong.

 

[Xyzz]

Speak yourself man, the movement aspect of marth's game is one that makes him such a sublime and elegant character.

Yeah, there's tons of different tastes in what characters are fun to look at. Friend of mine thinks spacies are boring (especially Falco and his super long combos that don't actually hurt more than the short and sweet CF stuff ).
And I also really like Marths gameplay... everything looks so smooth, fluid and elegant <3

 

[john!]

Speak yourself man, the movement aspect of marth's game is one that makes him such a sublime and elegant character.

2 posts above you my man

 

[Youngster Joey]

hey im planning on picking up melee. is there any chance that i can get good this late in the meta game? XP and if so how should i start practicing it?

EDIT: idk if this is even the place to be posting this :3

 

[Ziodyne]

just practice man
of course you can get good at this game dude, most people still suck anyways
i picked up this game a year ago and i'm decent (i think)

practice your tech skillz first (SHFFLing, wavedashing, any character specific stuff, etc.) and play with anyone you can

 

[Youngster Joey]

the thing is i have zero experience in this game. all i really have are cpus to practice against. wave dashing is even difficult for me at times. L canceling im okay at. i never wave dash tho. thanks for the positive answer tho

 

[Ziodyne]

my experience about a year ago was rolling
i didn't know how to spot dodge

i thought grabs were ****ing pointless

you can be a total noob, but if you have dedication, you're going places.

EDIT: BTW, play on CRT TVs (the big box-looking ones that are kinda static-y) and not on LCDS/HDTVS/plasmas. I didn't know this when I first started out, but because these TVs have to upscale Melee and other crap, Melee actually LAGS on these TVs.

Trust me, it will save you a lot of time down the road to take this to heart.

 

[Xyzz]

Yeah, you can definitely become good this late.
You can easily catch up on the metagame developments the community took 10 years to develop, without thinking / trying everything yourself. Watch videos of good players, see what they do, and try to understand why it works. No problems there
Techskill wise you're also fine, for some reason people who played for years aren't necessarily better at techskill than newer players, despite sometimes having spent more hours on practice.

Or if this is all too theoretical for you: I suppose, I should suffice as an example. The first time I touched a gamecube controller was about two and a half years ago, and people probably would say I'm at least pretty decent (4th or 5th best in Bavaria (not really motivated to travel around further in Germany... riding the train for 5+ hours is boring as hell :D)).

 

[phish-it]

I dislike when people say stuff like Marth is now a power contender again because PP beat M2k. Makes it seem like PP put on a dominant performance using marth when he really barely scraped out a win. Total game count as 5-3 in M2k's favor (in GF). Yes PP won the tournament but that hardly means marth is a stand alone national tournament winner (which we havent seen since like 2007)

At this point why does it even matter if a character is a stand alone contender for a national tournament winner? Practically every (top) player will use more than one character in winning the tournament anyway that it's almost redundant.

In this day is any characters valid as a standalone (national) tournament winner?

 

[Youngster Joey]

i dont have one of those static tv's. i only have those HD laggy ones. im not really looking to be pro. im just kinda looking to be competition and wait till smash 4 pretty much. i dont even really have a character to use yet.

but im not gonna get a new tv for a game

well i guess i'll be around here more looking for advice and stuff

 

[Xyzz]

You aren't really getting a new TV, you're getting an old one for like 10$

 

[Ziodyne]

c'mon man, crt's are like vintage now

but kk, do what you wanna do. even on lcd's, you can still beat the sht outta friends and ruin their days LOL

 

[Somaiah]

The only TV's that are available for me at college are the lcd ones...
When I start practicing tech skill this summer on a crt, will I be scrub?

EDIT: Does Game Mode actually do anything?

 

[Ziodyne]

Game mode helps a bit, depending on the tv.
It doesn't stop all lag though 99% of the time, if you really have to play on an LCD, might as well )=
It would probably help if there were any other competitive smashers at your college

And if you practice tech skill and against other people, you'll still have pretty good fingers and probably acquired a better idea of the mental aspect of the game, but the moment you get on a crt, be prepared to mess up your tech skill a lot in the beginning

 

[Xyzz]

The only TV's that are available for me at college are the lcd ones...
When I start practicing tech skill this summer on a crt, will I be scrub?

EDIT: Does Game Mode actually do anything?

You will be a scrub till you visit your first tourney and get beaten by tons of people

With game mode there is LCDs being below one frame of lag, those are fine of course (albeit pretty rare). They just feel somewhat differently compared to a CRT to me for some reason, but they don't actually lag.
But yeah, if LCDs are the only thing available to you, and you chose melee as the game you want to be good at over stuff that you could perfectly play on LCDs (good choice, melee is the best game ever <3) then you might as well practice on a LCD, which doesn't feel too bad. Too bad that you can't actually try because you lack the comparison to a CRT
Just pick the one that feels smoothes / most responsive to you and try to focus on stuff that doesn't require you to look at the screen for visual cues. E.g. wavedashes are a good thing to learn on a LCD, because you really don't have to even look at the screen to perform them. L-cancels on the other hand are something that will probably take some adjustment on a CRT, because you probably are often relying on visuals in order to perform them (practice those anyways, because they're super important :x But maybe don't bother to learn wavelands yet).

 

[Jabejazz]

The only TV's that are available for me at college are the lcd ones...
When I start practicing tech skill this summer on a crt, will I be scrub?

EDIT: Does Game Mode actually do anything?

Game mode bypasses most of the image processing a LCD TV does to give you the best image quality. Which results in pixels on your tv refreshing ever 2 milliseconds or so. Still, CRT TVs do that in less that 1 millisecond.

The difference is trivial. Besides, everyone should be playing on LCDs by now, no? What's the point of going on a CRT when it's basically extinct?

 

[Grunt]

No, that difference is not trivial.

 

[Divinokage]

Game mode bypasses most of the image processing a LCD TV does to give you the best image quality. Which results in pixels on your tv refreshing ever 2 milliseconds or so. Still, CRT TVs do that in less that 1 millisecond.

The difference is trivial. Besides, everyone should be playing on LCDs by now, no? What's the point of going on a CRT when it's basically extinct?

The lag is disgusting on LCDs, it's like playing Brawl online quite literally. You'd need plasma tvs or flat screen TVs, those work fine but not LCDs.

In all of the recent competitive smash videos I watch, Ganondorfs are essentially nonexistent, while Samus is appearing much more often than before. Is Ganon less viable than Samus now? Why would you put Ganon above Samus, SB? Is the lack prevalent Ganons because there aren't good players representing the character or because he's just not as popular? Ganon's game seems to be a lot more one-dimensional and lacking in defensive options (OoS, recovery, mobility) when compared to Samus, by a huge margin.

It's because I exist, obviously. =)