Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List

[Divinokage]

You can't L-cancel fair either.

 

[Bones0]

Yeah you can. lol You can't L-cancel bairs, uairs, or nairs.

 

[ShroudedOne]

I'm going to go out on a limb and venture that G&Ws nair (the 20 frame move) is not his best move.

 

[Bones0]

Shut your ***** mouth. G&Ws nair is one of the best moves in the game even without L-cancelling.

 

[Warhawk]

I agree with Bones, parachuting someone is the most satisfying thing to do to someone as G&W outside of Judgement 9.

 

[ShroudedOne]

Shut your ***** mouth. G&Ws nair is one of the best moves in the game even without L-cancelling.

Ok. I don't play him anyways.

 

[john!]

his B-moves are a waste of programming space.

sounds like someone hasn't been hit with "space animal slayer 2.0"

DI won't save you now...

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

watch's drop zone fair wreaks recoverys so much harder than marth's f-smash. plus watch's d-tilt hits a good bit lower than marth's with a much more F***ed angle. and having a throw game that can hit even puff with a decent move is an increible boost.

watch has a very solid combo, edge guard, and grab game(marth) but many times people think there's a way to play watch when really he can't wait around with good wd spacing like samus can with a lead nor can he really be aggro without hard reads he needs to start with a threat and make them work around it weather(rain) it's d-tilt or using bairs, maybe even fairing and pulling back hard mid height.

really chartcers out range him hard in threat of space they can eat. if YOu are pass watch's dash grab range he has to scare You into not standing there or bair You..

watch has to adapt in a way that makes his tools work. that said peach, gannon, pikachu, ice cimbers(player based I swear, i've been on and seen both ends of the match-up), and falcon are decent match-ups for watch I can't say for samus/mario/doc.

also bacon is legit in a few places: recovering high, platform tech chases the bacon covers all options if spaced, put a bacon under someone to make them waste a jump or bacon combo, if YOu grab onto the ledge and bacon it makes the random bacon alwayys follow a straight path down(gimick uses?), and if You can clank the pan with peach's turnip You get a lagless bacon out.

also just throwing it out when You can't follow-up in wierd places like d-smash up-B(top platform) up-tilt fair bacon is that wird place when You just can't chase them enough

watch vs pichu is 60-40 watch's d-tilt is as dumb as pichu's sheild and nairs

 

[Divinokage]

Alright let us end this myth.. Look very closely this is sausage! It doesn't look like Bacon at all.

 

[The Business]

yea its sausage.

 

[Bones0]

It's obviously sausage-link-shaped bacon.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

I call it bacon really don't care enough to make a big deal ou of it just i'll call it bacon and i'm wrong.

 

[kyaputenfarukon07]

Nah its Japanese bacon

 

[Bones0]

Nah its Japanese bacon

This is ridiculous.

There are no black people in Japan.

 

[The Business]

This is ridiculous.

There are no black people in Japan.

wat

 

[Divinokage]

Bacon is canadian, stfu. Epic Meal Time where you at!?

 

[choknater]

to me it looks more like something else but i shouldn't reveal my cannibalistic instincts to the rest of smashboards

 

[Crooked Crow]

Canadian bacon is the best bacon. It's also non-existent.

 

[Purpletuce]

So I was bored in a class, and thought I would try to derive a tier list from scratch, starting at the top, and moving down. I moved things (placing and grouping) around until I was content, and this is what I was got:

Note: these are my thoughts, and especially toward the bottom, I won't know everything about the character or their MUs. There is probably some bias on Yoshi, because my understanding of a character is correlated with their accepted viability/popularity, with the exception of Yoshi, who I am much more familiar with then the characters who surround him. I probably don't know enough about the lower characters, so I'm less confident in their placing.

S tier (by popularity and character strength these largely define the metagame):

1. Falco (I thought his MU spread was more consistent with popular characters, to win out over Fox.)
2. Fox (Invalidates more characters, but many of the MUs are irrelevant.)

A1 tier (Definite Viability, but slightly better than A2):

3. Shiek (only loses to 4, evenish with s tier, beats everyone else)
4. Puff (loses to but close with popular characters, pretty consistent MU spread)
5. Marth (Can be hard CPed with Sheik who is common, and has lots of struggles with lower tiers)

A2 tier (similar to A1, but there is a significant gap.)

6. Peach (loses to CF, Fox, Puff and Marth (in no particular order))
7. Captain Falco (loses to the top, most popular characters, as well as others, more bad MUs than 6 though)

A* tier (underdeveloped with potential, but different enough from its surroundings for its own group) :

8. I.C.s (see above)

B tier (Good characters, viable, but with their own struggles to overcome, but they're manageable) (note: at this point I stop defining major MUs because it gets cumbersome)

9. Doc
10. Pika
11. Samus
12. Gannon (too many super common CPs.)
--Mario(not sure how distant he should be from doc, because he isn't often seen, because of doc. somewhere in 10-13)

C tier (can be used, but significant disadvantage, can also be more developed)

14. Luigi
15. Yoshi (see above)
16. Donkey Kong
17. Young Link
18. Link
19. Zelda
20. Ness

D tier (further disadvantaged, but can be played)

21. Game & Watch
22. Mewtwo
23. Roy
24. Kirby
25. Bowser
26. Pichu



Remember these are opinions, I'm not saying any character is absolutely better than another.

 

[Bones0]

It sounds like you are actually taking the popularity of each character into consideration when determining how likely they are to perform well (i.e. there's a lot of players using character X, therefore character X is more likely to place well).

Please tell me I am mistaken...

 

[Kink-Link5]

Now Bonse0, you can't argue with pure usage and success because it represents what you'll ACTUALLY SEE in the only place that matters- Top 8 in tournament. Any other method of deriving and ranking character lists is inherently flawed.

http://smashboards.com/threads/334291/#post-15342011

http://smashboards.com/threads/334291/#post-15342169

I mean that's just BonesLogic 101*

 

[Bones0]

Now Bonse0, you can't argue with pure usage and success because it represents what you'll ACTUALLY SEE in the only place that matters- Top 8 in tournament. Any other method of deriving and ranking character lists is inherently flawed.

http://smashboards.com/threads/334291/#post-15342011

http://smashboards.com/threads/334291/#post-15342169

I mean that's just BonesLogic 101*

I don't know why you linked to that thread. Like Overswarm told you in that post, that is not a tier list, it is a compilation of ranking data. The first page defines a tier list as "a list of characters ranked best to worst in their likelihood to perform well in a tournament setting in the near future based on recent, relevant tournament results."

If you have 10,000 Mario mains and 1,000 Doc mains, Mario is not more likely to perform well than Doc because you evaluate it on a case-by-case basis. If you had to place a bet on one of these characters winning a national, everyone with a brain would bet on a Mario winning. If you had to place a bet on who would place higher, Max, the Mario main, or Don, the Doc main, who would you bet on? Hopefully you would have the brain capacity to realize that Doc is a better character all around, and therefore a player that mains him is more likely to perform better than a random Mario player. Even if you have more Mario players performing well than Doc players, it gives you no insight into which character is stronger. That's why you need to keep in mind how relatively common characters are before assuming that "ACTUALLY SEE"ing them in the top 8 doesn't mean they are ACTUALLY ANY GOOD.

Your whole point is incredibly ironic because you constantly go around falsely accusing me of basing my tier list off of results only to say basing a tier list off of anything but results is "inherently flawed." No **** it's inherently flawed to deviate from anything but tournament placement statistics, but accounting for untapped theory and skewed character representation tells us a lot more about the game than you'll ever get from tallying up the characters good players happen to use. Maybe we should have different tier lists for each region. Peach, Fox, Yoshi will be top tier in Sweden. Sheik, Fox, and Ganon will be top tier in Canadia. etc. This way each region has a tier list that more accurately represents what they "ACTUALLY SEE" in the top 8 of their tournaments.

 

[Divinokage]

Ya that sounds pretty nice Ganon top tier in Canada. lol.

 

[Kink-Link5]

*Sardonic post, glad you caught onto the irony but know it was intentional

 

[Purpletuce]

How much I understand a character is probably really dependent on how popular they are. Sure, Kirby might have some tricks, too bad I've never played someone who played him seriously, or seen it, or heard of it. So I am less likely to take his potential seriously. On more important things like Pika vs Gannnnnon, you might say Axe had a part in the listing, but it seems to my like Pika is more likely to do well, because Gannon has horrible MUs against Fox Falco Sheik, and Pika seems to have tricks that work against the spacies, who are super common, which makes Pika seem better. It seems like Gannon just loses by default against them, and once they mess up and let pressure off, then Gannon can capitalize well on it.

Then again, maybe I have no idea what I'm talking about. The list is 100% composed of what I thought of the characters overall and how they handled what MUs and how important those MUs were. I will guarantee you I was wrong on many things in the making of the list.

 

[RedGamer]

^
^
^
^
somebody deserves a cookie

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

I'd like to request chartcers like mario, ness, and dk who no one plays or knows anything about be removed from the tier list.

Also I don't know if I can say pichu is better than kirby other than pichu winning two mid tier mus. but really in stardand rps pichu is dd, nair, fake approach and then defense option after that.

When really it becomes very player vs player if You stand a chance because if You train them to cc You would dair to get a jab reset or if they sheild cross-up up-smash can shield stab, and then there's a few juggle tricks. Likewise if You have puffin the neutral game and You can't factor in how the puff will train their oppenet to do things then puff quickly drops.

Kirby can train them to do things just look at silly kirby vs falco/falcon matchs but it's not as big of a factor. Idk if match-ups were written as risk-reward then I could say kirby's better for sure.

Up-throw laser combos are cool as kirby.

 

[Purpletuce]

Definitely don't think the tier list should omit unpopular characters. . .

 

[KirbyKaze]

Kirby's evasion, crouch, and decent normals to follow up a sidestep or WD OOS are pretty annoying. His bair and fair are also decent.

He's garbage.





Ganon, Zelda, and some other characters form a group that share - as far as I'm concerned - the worst fighting style for this game. They basically have no reach beyond their actual attacks because of their atrocious mobility, which results in them being shut out by a lot of pressuring movement strategies like, say, Marth's offensive dash dance. They can't really do much to interact with that sort of strategy, due to the limited nature of their reach.

I feel these are the kinds of characters that get left behind as the game develops because I'm not sure how they become capable of interacting with a dash dance (or other things like it) without becoming either more mobile or getting better moves (lack of real sex kick and fast, broken defensive normals hurts here).

 

[choknater]

if it were me

i would just get in there and guess

 

[KirbyKaze]

Getting a guess with Ganon vs most characters correct is worth less than getting a grab with Sheik.

Ganon sucks.

 

[choknater]

yeah but a correct guess still feels good

 

[Divinokage]

All I need is 3-4 hits and thats the stock.

 

[KirbyKaze]

On a good day, all I need is 1.

 

[Bones0]

I make stocks disappear without even touching my opponents.

 

[choknater]

by suiciding? i see.

 

[Divinokage]

That happens with my warrior aura, i just stay there and some players just throw themselves off-stage and mess their jump up somehow.. lol.

 

[lordvaati]

suicides? Dat ain't no Kirby main.

So I was bored in a class, and thought I would try to derive a tier list from scratch, starting at the top, and moving down. I moved things (placing and grouping) around until I was content, and this is what I was got:

Note: these are my thoughts, and especially toward the bottom, I won't know everything about the character or their MUs. There is probably some bias on Yoshi, because my understanding of a character is correlated with their accepted viability/popularity, with the exception of Yoshi, who I am much more familiar with then the characters who surround him. I probably don't know enough about the lower characters, so I'm less confident in their placing.

S tier (by popularity and character strength these largely define the metagame):

1. Falco (I thought his MU spread was more consistent with popular characters, to win out over Fox.)
2. Fox (Invalidates more characters, but many of the MUs are irrelevant.)

A1 tier (Definite Viability, but slightly better than A2):

3. Shiek (only loses to 4, evenish with s tier, beats everyone else)
4. Puff (loses to but close with popular characters, pretty consistent MU spread)
5. Marth (Can be hard CPed with Sheik who is common, and has lots of struggles with lower tiers)

A2 tier (similar to A1, but there is a significant gap.)

6. Peach (loses to CF, Fox, Puff and Marth (in no particular order))
7. Captain Falco (loses to the top, most popular characters, as well as others, more bad MUs than 6 though)

A* tier (underdeveloped with potential, but different enough from its surroundings for its own group) :

8. I.C.s (see above)

B tier (Good characters, viable, but with their own struggles to overcome, but they're manageable) (note: at this point I stop defining major MUs because it gets cumbersome)

9. Doc
10. Pika
11. Samus
12. Gannon (too many super common CPs.)
--Mario(not sure how distant he should be from doc, because he isn't often seen, because of doc. somewhere in 10-13)

C tier (can be used, but significant disadvantage, can also be more developed)

14. Luigi
15. Yoshi (see above)
16. Donkey Kong
17. Young Link
18. Link
19. Zelda
20. Ness

D tier (further disadvantaged, but can be played)

21. Game & Watch
22. Mewtwo
23. Roy
24. Kirby
25. Bowser
26. Pichu



Remember these are opinions, I'm not saying any character is absolutely better than another.

Holy crap, I actually like this, though I feel that Kirbs should be last, since at least Bowser get used once in awhile and Pichu has a cult following-Kirby is irredeemably bad in Melee.

 

[Strong Badam]

I like how Marth apparently struggles with low tiers now.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Ken has always held that roy > marth