Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List

[E-102 Gamma]

If I was scared of losing, I wouldn't be playing as Bowser.

 

[Purpletuce]

Ice Climbers can be anything, after you take off those thick fur coats, who knows what you'll find under there. Ask me, Ice Climbers could be a tale about to dudes who go to the mountains to escape oppression in a homosexuality camp in the mountains and once they dress warm enough to survive the harsh winters, they realize that they're love is beautiful, they decide to attempt to conquer the Nintendo characters that oppressed them in the first place, through solid teamwork and the new dance trend they picked up in the camp, called "Wobbling". Through it all, the Ice Climbers gain the respect of their fellow smashers, and the liberals at Nintendo succeed in their master plan to show the masses that homosexuality is not wrong, and we should all accept one another, and wobble.

When I started playing for the first time competitive, it sucked because I got destroyed by everyone. . . Also, If you're an hour away, you should be close to a scene anyways, 1 hourish west is where Zelgadis (Shined Blind) and two other good players live, North isn't Oregon, East is where I live (Hood River, if you live in Hood River, I'm disappointed that we haven't played before.) south of Portland is like Salem, and there is a really good player there. . .

Also, did you just complain about the economy? Really??? I have worked 80 hour weeks worked multiple jobs, pay $120/month for car insurance, $65/month for my phone, and have payed thousands for schooling, further thousands for cars and miscellaneous expenses, and will be paying $600/month for my apartment this school year(out of pocket until my financial aid kicks in, who knows when that will be) and I still don't blame the economy. C'mon man, get a license, f*** b******, get money. Or, if you prefer, f*** money, get b******. Or, become a Yoshi main and do drugs in Portland all the time, and always bum for couches from smashers, and if they refuse, blow a load in their car's AC so every time the try to go somewhere the inhale your seed, and you are inside of them. We all do it. It's the economy. What am I posting about? How should I know. . .

 

[ShroudedOne]

What are you posting, indeed...

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Damn I shouldn't have used that gif on armada's post. But I did actually read that...

 

[DerfMidWest]

Whats happened to this thread....

Mewtwo is bad. Yoshi is less bad.

 

[john!]

ics are **** buddies

 

[V3ctorMan]

Pretty sure he mained Mewtwo at some point though.

I secondary him...

Many people just forgot about him, cuz I've had much quicker success with my Yoshi...

I secondary Roy too, and I don think it even says that...

and it most likely says I still play Falco...

My falco sucks...imo

 

[Battlecow]

Yeah, smashwiki is the devil. Only source I had tho

 

[The Star King]

Hey man Koro is not the devil

 

[Purpletuce]

Ignoring myself. . . and my nonsense.

If I remember correctly, nobody seemed to be very confident in the placement of Doc, Samus, Gannon and Pika. Should we discuss this?

 

[cannedbread]

samus needs to be lower imo. i love you sammy, baby, but you have no options. it's just those spacies. you can't really do much against them. it's just not working out. it's not me, it's you.

 

[E-102 Gamma]

Samus' aerial attacks suck (besides her aerial specials, and even those aren't that amazing, IMO).

 

[KirbyKaze]

Ignoring myself. . . and my nonsense.

If I remember correctly, nobody seemed to be very confident in the placement of Doc, Samus, Gannon and Pika. Should we discuss this?

Doc is better than the others.

I think Ganon > Samus > Pika is reasonable.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Ganon is certainly better than Pikachu overall. Samus is a hard character to place because she does so darn decently against spacies, yet gets pzowned by floaties like shiek, marf, doc, ganon, and such.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I want to say Samus gets super ***** by Marth but the Marths keep losing that one in tournament and the Samuses claim it's really close. So I can't. Not really justifiably. Sheik ***** her but Sheik ***** Pikachu too.

I think Ganon ****** Samus is an outdated view. Samus can be really lame to him.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Doc > Ganon > Samus/Pika

imo

 

[ChivalRuse]

Regarding the samus-ganon matchup: But crouch cancelling isn't viable vs ganon. NOR is up-b out of shield simply because of the frame advantage that his aerials provide. I just think lacking any kind of real grab game (which samus does lack) makes ganon's approaches too effective.

Regarding the samus-marth matchup: there's practically nothing that samus can do to contest a marth who wants to abuse rising full jump fair as an approach. Marth also has great approaches in his run up d-tilt and dash grab nonsense, both of which are difficult if possible to punish.

And doc obviously is hard for samus to deal with because she lacks a grab game, which is important vs a good doc. She lacks combos vs his floatiness and therefore has trouble putting more damage on him than he can put on her, and thus cannot end stocks more efficiently than he can, when he eventually is able to kill her with fair and d-smash. (on a sidenote, I would argue that cape is a good tool vs her)

 

[The Star King]

Ever since that one Zenith set of Axe vs M2K, Pikachu vs Sheik doesn't seem so bad to me. And it can't be "Axe is godly" stuff because M2K is not of a lower skill level. Can someone explain that to me?

Also Axe destroying KK in crews

 

[ChivalRuse]

^ It's hard to talk about matchups and then point to top players and use them as examples. In general, I would say that any sheik player who is on the same level as a pikachu player will have more than an upper hand in the matchup.

 

[The Star King]

^ It's hard to talk about matchups and then point to top players and use them as examples.

?????

Are you saying you want to look at mid-level players instead, or maybe go pure theorycraft? Maybe I'm misunderstanding.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Ever since that one Zenith set of Axe vs M2K, Pikachu vs Sheik doesn't seem so bad to me. And it can't be "Axe is godly" stuff because M2K is not of a lower skill level. Can someone explain that to me?

Wait, didn't M2K 3-0 him in LFs? Like, really easily? >.>

Axe being good doesn't take away Sheik's CG, range, OOS game, etc.

 

[Battlecow]

I saw moogle vs axe in pools at FC

moogle has a little experience in the MU from pikachad or whatever and he ended up doing really well, just abusing the things that make that MU good for sheik. Didn't win but it was like last stock high percent last game and stuff.

IDK anything but that to me made it look like a sheik playing the MU right has a nice advantage on pika

 

[ChivalRuse]

@ Star King: I'm saying basically what KK is, but less articulately.

yeah, so what I mean is that the brilliance of the tippity toppest players sometimes refutes what logically is visible in matchup analysis (as KK stated, chaingrab, range, etc). In other words, watching Axe do well vs M2K is all well and good, but it doesn't change the fact that the matchup is horrid for Pikachu.

If you want one further example: I've played friendlies vs Amsah and Overtriforce, and I even beat their sheiks a few times. Does that mean that Ice Climbers must demolish sheik? No, rather I just had a few lucky games (and they probably weren't playing nearly to their potential) etc., etc.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Also, isolated incidents are far more variable than consistent results. So if Axe persisted in beating M2K's sheik using pikachu, maybe then you could hypothesize a bit on the matchup. As it stands, Axe is not winning in sets afaik.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PSylN2HoNSk

WSF was pretty close (Axe won). And LF was pretty close despite being 3-0

 

[ChivalRuse]

If I was scared of losing, I wouldn't be playing as Bowser.

yeah! boozer power!

Do what you like man. I would encourage you to play other characters too, though, (at least loosely) to diversify your skillset.

 

[The Star King]

@KK I remember it being pretty close, could be wrong though

@ChivalRuse MU numbers should be based off of high-level play IMO

 

[ChivalRuse]

Yeah, to an extent though. When you have a specialist like Axe, it would seem to make sense to use him as the standard for that character's matchups. But you have to understand that with specialists you have altered data, since that specialist as a general rule always knows the matchups from his end better than his opponent.

So with Taj, he knows Mewtwo's matchups so much better than his opponents, that he has an advantage that is not physically there in the matchup. This kind of effect can occasionally skew our viewpoints in ways that don't do justice to the character's actual problems.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Only problem is that at high level of play, every match-up is gonna be pretty even because players will understand their opponent's strengths and weaknesses as well as their own and will have the patience to wait for proper timings. Every match-up will pretty much move to even, thus the "better" player wins.

Match-up charts should probably be based on how easily a better player should be able to win.

 

[ShroudedOne]

Be specific with when you say "every matchup," cause I don't see Mango's Mario winning a national (Or Armada's Zelda or some other top level player with a low tier).

 

[ChivalRuse]

^ What about Armada's Young Link?

 

[ShroudedOne]

....

...

...he used Peach to get there.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Yeah, to an extent though. When you have a specialist like Axe, it would seem to make sense to use him as the standard for that character's matchups. But you have to understand that with specialists you have altered data, since that specialist as a general rule always knows the matchups from his end better than his opponent.

So with Taj, he knows Mewtwo's matchups so much better than his opponents, that he has an advantage that is not physically there in the matchup. This kind of effect can occasionally skew our viewpoints in ways that don't do justice to the character's actual problems.

This is really bad logic. We shouldn't use the best players using a characters as the basis for how the character performs against other characters on a top-professional level because they "aren't the standard"?

Like, what other sources would matchups use besides the best the character can bring?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Easy analogy for the 'issue':
MK has an advantage over every character in Brawl. Top players almost always know the Meta Knight match-up better than the MK player knows the MU for their character.

Therefore, a lot of characters go even or beat MK at top level despite his virtues as a character.

Similarly, Taj would get a lot of his victories from Mewtwo being uncommon. Doesn't mean his results should be disregarded, but that should be taken into account.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Easy analogy, granted. A good analogy? Not at all. Player ignorance is not an excuse to discredit the fact that a top player of one character is going strongly against a top player of another. This isn't an issue that can be easily assigned a numerical value and written off as nothing. The term meta in metagaming is what the entire matter is about; it goes beyond simple 0:1 binaries and approaches the matter of examining the game in a more variable manner. Taj beating bad Foxes is fun and all, but the matter is that higher caliber players have proven otherwise on the matter of whether the character truly has more even matchups in an evolving metagame full of more information every day.

Just because Pikachu was considered -2 against such and such character previously, doesn't mean that that is the case, just as a better Pikachu beating a worse such and such doesn't mean it's advantageous for Pikachu. What matters is proof through practice, not through results, and not through the reliance on past presumptions.

Shock factor only explains so much.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

If we base match-ups on the META-game, rather than the game itself, the tier list will be in a constant state of flux.

Doesn't sound very useful to me. With a static tier list you can take the metagame into account after reading it: "Okay, Mewtwo is really low on this tier list. But I know that people won't know the MU, so I can still use him".

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

The tier list should reflect the metagame. People not knowing the match-up is not part of the metagame, though.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

...Yeah, it is...

 

[Zoler]

Only problem is that at high level of play, every match-up is gonna be pretty even because players will understand their opponent's strengths and weaknesses as well as their own and will have the patience to wait for proper timings. Every match-up will pretty much move to even, thus the "better" player wins.

Match-up charts should probably be based on how easily a better player should be able to win.

ehhhhhhh what?.....

 

[DerfMidWest]

Uhm... Pika/Sheik is reaaally ****ing hard. Axe is just pure beast.

Anyway, imo:

Doc >Pika/Ganon>Samus

Samus seems like 100% gimmicks to me... Though, Samus ICs makes me madish.