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Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List

KirbyKaze

KirbyKaze

Smash Legend
Joined
Nov 18, 2007
Messages
17,679
Location
Spiral Mountain
Kink-Link5 said:
Just because Pikachu was considered -2 against such and such character previously, doesn't mean that that is the case, just as a better Pikachu beating a worse such and such doesn't mean it's advantageous for Pikachu. What matters is proof through practice, not through results, and not through the reliance on past presumptions.

Shock factor only explains so much.
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I just want to say that in a game with no online, with a limited player pool (especially on low tiers), and where people practice in relatively isolated regions, shock factor and gimmicks (and other nonsense) get a huge boost in power.

I feel smash is one of the few games that still has this trait going for it.

With that said, I feel we're getting on a tangent here. This started on whether Sheik wrecks Pikachu or not. Let's discuss that. Since it's more directly relevant to character placement.

I feel Sheik still beats Pikachu pretty soundly despite Axe wrecking me in crews and despite his (single) win on M2K (who was shuffling characters and lost one of his games with Marth, btw) because Sheik has a CG that works well on him to 40% or so, the range and OOS game to keep him out effectively, and some decent resistant to his punishment (particularly edgeguarding) if she can land on platforms. She's also relatively hard to grab.

In spite of Axe's innovations, I don't think he's really fixed some of Pikachu's key issues - including but not limited to lacking an aerial kill move and lacking range aside from 2-3 things (the length his SH nair covers, his uair in general, and arguably some of his smashes). You can disagree with me on this, though - I'm really interested to hear everyone's thoughts!
 
Purpletuce

Purpletuce

Smash Lord
Joined
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Corvallis, OR
It amazes me sometimes with how much people doubt other players' potential and characters' potential.

I've had a large amount of ideas floating around in my head about low tiers, playstyles and other things I probably don't know enough about to post on, but probably will anyway. I feel like there is a large amount of unmentioned factors that go into play. . . not sure what I think about them. I'm also sleepy.

This game isn't exclusively about the top 6. Mid and Low tier is too easy to sleep on.
 
Wake

Wake

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 27, 2010
Messages
3,191
Location
Thank you Based Mimi.
Purpletuce said:
It amazes me sometimes with how much people doubt other players' potential and characters' potential.

I've had a large amount of ideas floating around in my head about low tiers, playstyles and other things I probably don't know enough about to post on, but probably will anyway. I feel like there is a large amount of unmentioned factors that go into play. . . not sure what I think about them. I'm also sleepy.

This game isn't exclusively about the top 6. Mid and Low tier is too easy to sleep on.
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I don't doubt a player's potential at all. Kage got like 5th at FC and Axe got 3rd, and they can do even better than that.
 
john!

john!

Smash Hero
Joined
Nov 19, 2006
Messages
8,063
Location
The Garden of Earthly Delights
Sveet said:
The tier list should reflect the metagame. People not knowing the match-up is not part of the metagame, though.
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agreed. so axe and kage's amazing results don't mean that pikachu and ganon are necessarily good in this metagame, and shouldn't have a huge effect on the tier list.

Grim Tuesday said:
Easy analogy for the 'issue':
MK has an advantage over every character in Brawl. Top players almost always know the Meta Knight match-up better than the MK player knows the MU for their character.

Therefore, a lot of characters go even or beat MK at top level despite his virtues as a character.

Similarly, Taj would get a lot of his victories from Mewtwo being uncommon. Doesn't mean his results should be disregarded, but that should be taken into account.
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this was the best post on the topic
 
odinNJ

odinNJ

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 5, 2012
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I think that it is too easy just to say "no one knew the matchup" and discard the results. Sure pickachu shouldn't travel to b or a tier, but it is impossible to ignore how well axe has been doing. Comparatively, what samus player hashes done the well in a while?
You cannot simply ignore axes results because h is the only
Person using pickachu at that high of a level
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
KirbyKaze said:
In spite of Axe's innovations, I don't think he's really fixed some of Pikachu's key issues - including but not limited to lacking an aerial kill move and lacking range aside from 2-3 things (the length his SH nair covers, his uair in general, and arguably some of his smashes). You can disagree with me on this, though - I'm really interested to hear everyone's thoughts!
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pikachu's real issue is his total lack of range, so attacking an enemy always requires pikachu to put his body box onto the opponent. this is typically a big no-no in this game, and he can't effectively space aerials on shields. i think this really limits the character's ability to engage the opponent from neutral- basically ground game or DD based interaction, or "hey look at my nairplane", or edge shenanigans.

experience should knock the edge game stuff out from neutral, but i think the edge guard stuff is reliable. this reduces pikachu's offensive interaction from neutral down to nair or his ground game, which should be manageable once you force pikachu into that pattern of attack. this also forces you to consider that you don't necessarily have positional advantage on pikachu once he's on the edge. it's likely that you still do have advantage, but we don't know why we have it or how to go about using it for anything profitable.

i think axe kind of did solve pikachu's lack of an aerial kill move, simply by being fast enough to catch opponents in the air and to work them over and off the edge with it. fox can do this really well too, but he doesn't really have to because he actually has aerial kill power, so this trait might be unique to pikachu, as he's the only fast character with no aerial kill move. So long as the opponent still dies, it basically counts as equivalent IMO.
 
odinNJ

odinNJ

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Sveet said:
Makes it seem like you are disagreeing.
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Hmm, i dont see it, i didnt say "actually" or "However" or other contrasting words. I just stated my view after someone else stated their view. I dont see how that always translates to disagreeing.
 
ChivalRuse

ChivalRuse

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 13, 2007
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8,413
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College Park, MD
I feel we've overlooked Pikachu's top tier recovery in our evaluation of matchups entirely. Pikachu's above average ability to edgeguard coupled with an excellent recovery of his own make him a powerhouse at the edge. He also has a tech in place with virtually no lag time [2 frames], the fastest d-tilt (and in fact non-jab move) in the game [19 frames] (which by the way also has decent range) with the exception of Ness's d-tilt, one of the best vertical finishers in the game (upsmash), one of the highest priority moves in the game (upair), AND he runs really fast.

His only big problems are his being a lightweight and his lack of range overall, the latter of which is true of quite a few characters (peach, fox, falco, and doc lack range too).
 
Kimimaru

Kimimaru

Smash Ace
Joined
Apr 19, 2012
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915
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CA
ChivalRuse said:
His only big problems are his being a lightweight and his lack of range overall, the latter of which is true of quite a few characters (peach, fox, falco, and doc lack range too).
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Pikachu is heavier than Fox. The only characters Fox is heavier than are Kirby, Jigglypuff, Game and Watch, and Pichu.
 
Divinokage

Divinokage

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 6, 2006
Messages
16,250
Location
Montreal, Quebec
Doser said:
Almost doesn't cut it kiddo. Go back to pretending you're a samurai.
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There's no pretending when it becomes reality. Be like water, my friend.

You can go always go back making troll posts and continue to be a scrub behind your computer while i continue to smash faces.
 
The Star King

The Star King

Smash Hero
Joined
Nov 6, 2007
Messages
9,681
That would be the nail in the US's coffin.

Also I like how there's always that one guy who brings up powershielding whenever lasers are mentioned
 
DerfMidWest

DerfMidWest

Fresh ******
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Mar 31, 2011
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Cleveland, OH
Slippi.gg
SOFA#941
He's also not american born... Or even a US citizen...
So he can't be president...
Unless he breaks the governments' noses
 
Purpletuce

Purpletuce

Smash Lord
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Corvallis, OR
He is just another kid with an affinity to talk game. We all are probably best off ignoring him. . .

People who say to powershield lasers, must not play this game.

Powershield laser will gibe Falco a free approach if you do it too late, it is about even if you do it around frame perfect (which nobody can) and if he is too close, it won't even matter because he would have already made his approach and start with the regular Falco routine (KK might call it pressure gravy?). If you do it too late puts you in your shield, which is a disadvantageous position in that it restricts your movement while Falco has already auto-cancelled his laser and is about to run train on your shield with grab/shield pressure/better positioning.

PS lasers is not viable, realistically.
 
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