Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List

[Bones0]

If you're just going to Theory Bros. drill spam to chase every roll, then I will Theory Bros. roll to the ledge and shield DI onto it.

Besides, being susceptible to pressure isn't all that bad when you are as combo resistant as Yoshi. Even if he gets grabbed and hit more often than other characters, that doesn't make him worse. Everyone is going to be hit eventually, so how you deal with post-hit scenarios is just as important as how often you get in those scenarios to begin with. Anyone who thinks Yoshi's post-hit game is less than phenomenal is kidding themselves. DJC armor frequently leads to reversals out of combos that would normally work consistently on other characters, and his sheer weight makes throws pretty horrible vs. him. From what I've seen of top Yoshi mains, his main issue is getting a solid first hit. He can't easily initiate pressure, and when he does it's with stuff that's hard to follow up on. He seems to rely on a lot of poking around in neutral until he can get a knockdown or until the opponent just messes up and leaves themselves open for a solid hit.

 

[Xyzz]

His non existant oos game imho is somewhat related to not being able to get first hits though. Other characters can counter attack from shield, which is better suited than DJ armor for starting combos (obviously if you are already in a combo, DJ armor is better... but the opponent should learn what safely combos and what doesn't, so you shouldn't get a combo from it, just not be comboed so hard).

It doesn't even have to be as great as Armada, or the occasional shine oos from spacies, just simply being able to wavedash > grab a marth fsmash is really good, and Yoshi completely lacks these combo starts in his game.

And lacking these defensive threats, the opponent can do stuff that would be unsafe against other characters, which imho is pretty helpful in the neutral position (I don't have to take care of the shield grab / aerial oos options, just beat his attempts to be faster with an aerial / WD back / stuff, but at least not shield ).

So, yeah, I do think that his shield IS one of the main problems, but for slightly other reasons...
Really? You are reacting to his rolls, and then do what exactly?
Grab him? Could've had that just as easily before that, since he was shielding anyways.
Punish the vulnerability frames that he has after his roll with something different? All zero of them, yay.

Thing is, if Yoshi rolls, he is taking a gamble. His weird little hurtbox during the rolls might get hit, but the stuff you can reliably do to roll -> buffered shield, are just the same you can do to his shield, so there's not much there.
Defensively his shield can be amazing (not getting shield stabbed can be a godsent at times, e.g. if you've been hit a few times already and a peach is going fair -> immediate dsmash on your shield, you're pretty happy that you can just shield grab her afterwards and not being hit ), but I honestly think the single best improvement that could be reasonably given to Yoshi is the option to jump oos (his recovery is fine. You have to watch out for different things than other characters, but in return jumping straight through that sheik bair / needles / fox shine is really fun :D)

 

[Bones0]

@Xyzz

Interesting perspective, I never thought of it that way.

 

[leffen]

"Other characters can counter attack from shield"

and yoshi can't?

he has by far the best counter attack game ******, learn how the **** the character works then say smth pleeeeeease


also getting stuck in shield doesnt happen often and its not that bad. You can't reliably react to all of yoshis options (spotdodge/roll either way/grab/let go of shield is much harder than you think to fight against)

adding to that, yoshi is the character that is the most resistant to grabs. Fox doesnt get **** from grabs lol.


Fox drill does beat parry, but has horrible priority and bcuz of yoshis weight he has a hard time following it up, esp if you learn to SDI it

 

[Kimimaru]

For counter attacking from shield I think he was referring to when Yoshi is already in his shield, not his parry frames.

 

[Xyzz]

Leffen, you sure do have a way of alienating the few people who aren't already happily hopping on the "let's hate leffen"-bandwagon because it's the cool thing to do

I was (obviously) talking about Yoshi being in shield, not his parry. Sure, Yoshi has some of the best options in the game from there, but I think there's so many situations where one is almost forced into doing a regular shield, that the lack of a reliable attack from there is a huge disadvantage.
I do completely agree that Yoshi can get out of his shield without being punished, but the opponent has to cover fewer options than with other characters, and he is (relatively) safe, and Yoshi completely misses out on punishing poorly spaced aerials / some other stuff the way other characters get to do, which I totally feel is one of his biggest flaws holding him down. I would however be quite interested in what your opinion on the issue is.

 

[Deleted member]

roy's best move is very obviously his grab. i don't know why we're suggesting easily crouched moves for a character that loses to crouching as his "best move", his best move is clearly the one that lets you circumvent his major weakness.

/no brainer IMO

 

[Bones0]

What can Roy do out of grab though?

 

[DerfMidWest]

He can throw em.
And then maybe hit them if they DI bad.

 

[Ripple]

Grab is not his best umbreon.

It is ded. Hands down, you can do so much with it

 

[Ripple]

Grab is not his best umbreon.

It is ded. Hands down, you can do so much with it.

 

[DerfMidWest]

Its so good, he had to post that twice.

 

[Deleted member]

Grab is not his best umbreon.

It is ded. Hands down, you can do so much with it.

it's good against bads. against good players, crouchgrab is always a threat and roy spends most of the match playing around it.

with grab you can set up position, as roy's grabs are like marths in that they offer crazy positional advantage.

 

[unknown522]

Pretty much, yeah

 

[Youngling]

it's good against bads. against good players, crouchgrab is always a threat and roy spends most of the match playing around it.

with grab you can set up position, as roy's grabs are like marths in that they offer crazy positional advantage.

position to do what.... grab?

 

[Ripple]

Spacing side-b so you dont get crouch grabbed makes it better than grab.

 

[Divinokage]

But then if you try to space it, it becomes even more predictable and then you can just aerial it.

 

[Ripple]

Roy doesn't have many options, I don't. debate that.

But side_b is his best

 

[Pink Reaper]

I think Roy's best option is to reset the match and pick a better character **

 

[RaphaelRobo]

I agree with Pink Reaper. Roy mains should all switch to Kirby.

 

[Warhawk]

Kirby sucks

 

[E-102 Gamma]

Kirby sucks

That was horrible.

 

[Warhawk]

I didn't even think about the joke until after I typed it all out actually, I just think he's completely awful and more or less kinda wanted to RaphaelRobo to start going on about Kirby again lol.

 

[Bones0]

Kirby rocks!

 

[RaphaelRobo]

I didn't even think about the joke until after I typed it all out actually, I just think he's completely awful and more or less kinda wanted to RaphaelRobo to start going on about Kirby again lol.

Kirby's an incredible character. He has a great grab range, can space with Dtilt and Bair, can KO with his Uair (You heard that right, he has a move he can KO with!), and can combo (kind of) with his Utilt. And I haven't even started talking about how amazing his taunt is.

 

[Purpletuce]

I was thinking about this, and I just realized that nobody here could possibly know what characters are good. Nobody here has enough experience, as all tournaments suffer from the game-crippling disease of concession to popular demand. For example, I see this: People think spacies are good, so people tend to play spacies. When people tend to play spacies, spacies become the most common, and hold an unbalanced representation. When spacies are over-represented, popular demand is skewed, so that it dictates that spacies recieve benefits (ex: two old CP stages, Brinstar and Pokemon Stadium. Pokemon stadium is beneficial toward spacies, Brinstar is beneficial toward floaties. Which one remains?)

So now there is a bias affecting the system, and the power schemes already present become strengthened. Spacies are good, so people make spacies better.



Let us pretend there is a smash community completely isolated from smashboards and tournaments, and they all become good. Let us also assume they find Marth and Peach are good, and most people play them. Eventually they make Final Destination the only legal stage. Wouldn't spacies be handicapped?

I admit this is an extreme comparison, but I think it should be considered. Possibly some characters are being held back because of the way the competitive scene is set up. Also, I thin,k the fact that the MBR stagelist only has 1 CP stage is ridiculous (interesting how it is good for both spacies?), and should be removed, or accompanied by further CP stages.

 

[john!]

Let us pretend there is a smash community completely isolated from smashboards and tournaments, and they all become good. Let us also assume they find Marth and Peach are good, and most people play them. Eventually they make Final Destination the only legal stage. Wouldn't spacies be handicapped?

their community would have their own metagame, and therefore their own tier list.

likewise, our community has our own metagame, and thus we have our own tier list which reflects this metagame.

our metagame is imperfect, and the tier list reflects this. but as long as our tier list accurately represents our metagame, then it is doing its job.

 

[Warhawk]

When spacies are over-represented, popular demand is skewed, so that it dictates that spacies recieve benefits (ex: two old CP stages, Brinstar and Pokemon Stadium. Pokemon stadium is beneficial toward spacies, Brinstar is beneficial toward floaties. Which one remains?)

So now there is a bias affecting the system, and the power schemes already present become strengthened. Spacies are good, so people make spacies better.

Except if we did a full stage list spacies would probably be more broken than they already are considering half the stages are banned pretty much because of Fox and Falco. I mean even looking at former counterpick stages, it wasn't just brinstar and pokemon stadium there was also kongo jungle 64 and rainbow cruise. Pretty fair trade for the floaties to get rid of kongo jungle 64 and rainbow cruise, levels that are great for Fox and Falco, at the cost of brinstar. And before those there was corneria, another great space animal level. There's also talk of removing counterpicks and just having the neutrals. I think if anything the stagelist has been shaped over time to hurt the spacies, not put them further above the rest. Our tier list is skewed but even so I think unless you add a lot more stages or remove all but one you aren't gonna change things around too much and more likely than not it will still be a space animal on top.

 

[Purpletuce]

I believe the point of the tier list is to show the characters' likelihood for success in tournament play, so I'm probably better off posting in the MBR recommended ruleset thread. I'm aware there were other CPs than the two I mentioned, they were just the first two I thought of and referenced for an example. I also believe that in most hypothetical metagame formations, spacies would end up on top simply from how good they are. I'm simply trying to present an idea I had. Also, my first few lines in the post above this were meant to serve as a title that would grab attention and get everyone to read my idea, I'm not trying to imply you all don't know what you're talking about. Finally, I like the idea of nuetrals only, makes the stagelist cleaner, in my opinion. Either that or adding more.

 

[Pink Reaper]

I was thinking about this, and I just realized that nobody here could possibly know what characters are good. Nobody here has enough experience, as all tournaments suffer from the game-crippling disease of concession to popular demand. For example, I see this: People think spacies are good, so people tend to play spacies. When people tend to play spacies, spacies become the most common, and hold an unbalanced representation. When spacies are over-represented, popular demand is skewed, so that it dictates that spacies recieve benefits (ex: two old CP stages, Brinstar and Pokemon Stadium. Pokemon stadium is beneficial toward spacies, Brinstar is beneficial toward floaties. Which one remains?)

So now there is a bias affecting the system, and the power schemes already present become strengthened. Spacies are good, so people make spacies better.



Let us pretend there is a smash community completely isolated from smashboards and tournaments, and they all become good. Let us also assume they find Marth and Peach are good, and most people play them. Eventually they make Final Destination the only legal stage. Wouldn't spacies be handicapped?

I admit this is an extreme comparison, but I think it should be considered. Possibly some characters are being held back because of the way the competitive scene is set up. Also, I thin,k the fact that the MBR stagelist only has 1 CP stage is ridiculous (interesting how it is good for both spacies?), and should be removed, or accompanied by further CP stages.

You're deriving a lot of opinions from rather incorrect ideas. Brinstar Vs PS really has nothing to do with spacies and more to do with the lava. It's not just bad for Spacies it's bad for nearly every character save a few.

Also outside of the lowest tier there is enough high level character representation for us to understand how individual character match ups work. There are very high level players who play lower tier characters and give us necessary data for them. You attribute Fox/Falco being top tier because they're popular, but it would be more correct to state that they are popular because of the fact that they're so obviously better than other characters.

It should also be noted that rarely are Fox/Falco the worst high tier match ups for low tier characters. The spacies have very abuseable weaknesses that most(not all) lower tier characters can properly exploit giving them at least a useable punish game. Meanwhile sheik and marth lack those weaknesses and much more easily beat lower tier characters. If anything the presence of so many spacies actually make it easier for middle tier characters to compete.

This is of course a rather blanket statement, it doesnt hold true for all characters but it's true enough that it's meaningful to bring up. I will say if nothing else i agree with the idea that the stage list needs further revision, though I dont agree with how you reached the conclusion. I do feel some stages were rather unfairly banned(KJ 64 primarily) and that others(Poke Floats) deserve a second look but that's for another thread really.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Purpletuce, that would only be the case if your premise had proof to support it. I will admit that certain things still aren't explored, but that doesn't mean the game is completely unexplored to the point where the top characters are only played because of self-fulfilling perceptions of them being good.

 

[Purpletuce]

My posts were not to be taken that linearly, I only provided vague non-researched examples quickly to demonstrate my ideas. I would appreciate if my ideas were addressed by the general thought I was attempting to share, not the details of how I conveyed my ideas to the rest of the readers. Also, Sveet, two posts above yours I added a second post that should have made it clear that I don't believe that spacies are only good because people held self-fulfilling perceptions that they would be good. I am merely attempting to say that this aspect should be considered, and their dominance has skewed perception of the metagame, with their over-representation. I also would like others to consider other aspects than the stage list that may have been affected by this situation. Perhaps if the metagame formed differently, other rules may have changed. Consider possibilities that may have helped other characters, such as if the community played with items on, or friendly fire off, or Shiek was banned. What if players were required to not play any character that they previously won with?

Although I would not like some of those possibilities, what if they were the norm?

I challenge smashboards with this question:
How strongly has our metagame changed the viability of certain characters?

 

[Pink Reaper]

if you want people to respond to the things you think and not to the things you say then you shouldnt say anything and should cultivate some form of telepathy.

 

[tarheeljks]

I challenge smashboards with this question:
How strongly has our metagame changed the viability of certain characters?

chicken/egg?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Stupid analogy; egg obviously came first if you think about it.

 

[tarheeljks]

yes, well while i will not dispute that, the meaning is obv so idk why you said that

 

[Grim Tuesday]

In the hope that someone would disagree so I could flaunt my ego and increase the size of me e-peen.

 

[DerfMidWest]

Kirby sucks and spits.
But thats a little dirty for what was inteded to be a childrens game.

I had some response that was actually going to be serious and discussion prevoking, but I totally forgot what it was (its 4am...)
Hopefully I'll remember later.

 

[Froggy]

Roy doesn't have many options, I don't. debate that.

But side_b is his best

Any chance you'll be showing us how good his side-b is at FC?

 

[The Good Doctor]

All I know is Leffen is nubish