Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List

[Kink-Link5]

Kirby
Roy
Pichu
Bowser

This is my favourite part. I have reservations about like Luigi above Samus, but Roy is absolute trash.

 

[Johnknight1]

The bottom of that tier list by Armada is funny (lmao at Roy; that's not too far off), but I still think Kirby is the character that the other 25 characters, including Pichu, sit on!

I'm still lmao at boomrested's post 3 minutes after reading it for whatever reason!

i think thats the first time ive ever seen somone insult somone by calling them a carpenter.

Leffen your insults are mad creative, ill give you props for that

Well it is "mad creative" until carpenters refuse to work for you, and your living space has barren floors for because of that.

 

[Bones0]

the one thing you care about is having your list validated by some other (good) player instead of actually going outside of the box and thinking for yourself.

lol wut

 

[Deleted member]

Why the hell do you think that you deserve any ****ing responses?

I've never seen any one person stifle as much otherwise intelligent discussion as you have.

I know that once upon a time, MLG gave a **** about this site and JV required the MBR to have International members. I don't personally know Aniolas, but I'm still embarrassed for him for giving you any kind of legitimacy for the next tier list. The European version of affirmative action was clearly incorrect, and I miss discussion with much more deserving members from Europe like Tero.

In the past when I was the leader of the MBR, I would have just kicked you or banned you without a second thought. Regrettably, I gave my position as leader and moderator to Cactuar. I expect Sveet or Cactuar to somehow legitimize your MBR membership, but in confidence I don't expect either of them to give you any kind of defense. Since I can't do either anymore, you're going to be the first person on my ignore list since I joined the boards nearly 10 years ago.

 

[Pink Reaper]

I agree with the fact that I haven't really tried my best to convince people BUT when people use those arguments over and over it starts getting really tired.

Even if Leffen act like a idiot many times () he know a lot about this game and he actually try to convince people many times (about Yoshi for example even if I think he goes to aggro) but it feels like people don't even care about reading casue "we haven't seen it happen" and "results" is normally where the discussion ends.

I will try to make a super serious post about why I think Y char is better then X (make some examples)

Edit:

Fox
Puff
Falco

Marth
Sheik
Peach
IC
Falcon

Doc
Pikachu
Luigi
Yoshi
Samus
Ganon

Mario
DK
Y. Link
Link

Mewtwo
Zelda
G&W
Ness

Kirby
Roy
Pichu
Bowser

Im not saying my list is perfect and I guess Puffs place will be discussed. Maybe Im biased (about Puff)I have been hateing on that char since my first tournament so that char is tbh the hardest one for me to be sure were to put.

I will try to have time to explain everything in a soon future (some smash tomorrow with friends and the final och the European cup in fotball on sunday )

I havent done any real tier discussion in forever but I'd be interested in your explanation of
ICs over Falcon. ICs definitely dont get enough attention especially when you consider how strong top ICs have been playing in recent years. There's definitely a bit of bias in that list though, both PAL and personal, those puffballs lol.

Also reading over Mow's Doc post a while back something struck me. One of the things that has always stood out to me in the Doc/High Tiers and Falcon/High Tiers match ups is how those two specific characters dictate the match ups. Doc is an odd character, he forces other characters to play around him and alter their game-play specifically for Doc. This means that even in match-ups that Doc loses he's still the one in control. However Falcon doesnt have this ability. Now this isnt to say that characters dont have to change they're style at all for falcon, but it's usually so small when compared to Doc that they are generally just doing whatever they as characters do best and Falcon has nothing that stops them. To that end I can almost get behind the idea of "Doc > Falcon" though Im not entirely sold on it. I feel like while Doc has some very strong punishment options(though mostly on the heavier and fast falling characters) Falcon, who has the ability to 0->Death almost any character is not a character to be taken lightly.

 

[ShroudedOne]

Leffen, you've outlined a LOT of Yoshi's strengths, and as someone who knows next to nothing, still, about him, I'm curious: What are the weaknesses that hold him back from being placed higher on the tier list? From everything you've described so far, it sounds like Yoshi's defense/strong combos/edgeguards/ledge game could easily seat him in the top ten, but you didn't put him there. I could try to invent things in my head that make sense, but I'd much rather hear them from you.

 

[Warhawk]

I think I will give up when it comes to discuss this topic cause it feels like almost everyone is voteing/have opinions based on results. That way this is completly pointless to discuss cause results are nothing we can change and that means this topic is pointless until people actually start to use their brain.

I mean I don't think that just because people's lists are more result based than yours means they aren't using their brain. As much as the lists shouldn't be entirely result based they shouldn't be entirely theory based either. Its just people have varying degrees to which the weight they feel each side of the coin carries. And I think very few lists here are all or near all result based since Fox is still generally showing up at one or two. Which characters placements do you feel are too result based and where do you think they should be? Peach I'd assume is one but it seems most people still have her around 6th so there's got to be others and I'm curious.

 

[knightpraetor]

lol, my favorite thread ever..nice post mahone..nice to see you still have a sense of humor in this madness...

the art of theorycrafting..everyone's favorite pastime....

i personally don't even think we should have a tier list..but then everyone would be bored out of their mind

lately i've given up on trying to argue tier placements cause i realized that I know jack about most matchups in the game that don't involve either marth or jiggs....also i realized that you can't convince people..you sure as hell can't convince people on the boards..and even if you play and 3-4 stock them by specifically abusing the one thing you wished to convince them of...they will just say their tech skill was off (if they are a bad player) or that you just outspaced them (if they are a good player)..without ever even noticing what you were abusing...

so just play who you think is good..abuse the heck out of them...and realize that it will probably 2-3 years before anyone even figures out the reasons why you are able to outplace characters who are supposedly better

 

[Max?]

A few things

Imo Doc vs. Marth is pretty damn close to even, and most Marth's don't know the matchup, so I'm not too concerned with it. Abusing shield is pretty key, and learn2edgeguard. Bairs/cape/ftilt/pills for days.

Doc vs. Sheik and Falcon vs. Sheik are both pretty comparable imo. People are on this "Falcon goes 50/50 with Sheik" bs, but I really don't buy that at all, just Falcon's being better than said Sheik's.

Amongst the viable characters, Doc does better vs. the Spacies/Jiggs while Falcon does better vs. Peach/Marth/Climbers (tho I think Doc vs Climbers is at least 50/50 or a Doc advantage without wobbling). Falcon has easier matchups vs. the mid/low tiers, but Doc wins all of those matchups except for DK/Luigi which are evenish. Falcon wins the head to head, but not by much.

Just saying, at the end of the day it's possible Doc > Falcon, tho I think based on history people will always put Falcon ahead.


Also, Luigi beasts the crap out of Yoshi. All of Luigi's aerials beat Yoshi's DJ superarmor, and he combos the living balls out of him. Easy 90-10 if I've ever seen it.

 

[t3h Icy]

lolthisthread

I like how Yoshi's Parrying is argued as some godlike ability, in a metagame where most people can't even powershield consistently.

Though, I still think Yoshi has the most potential of all characters if a player were to perfect it, but I don't think anyone will ever do it. Yoshi might become a mid-tier if high consistency with Parrying becomes a common part of the metagame. Right now, that doesn't happen.

Also Sheik.

 

[Tero.]

And no, boat mode isn't the only dumb noob in here. Tero, Jpobs, (almost) everyone, you all give ****ty freakin explanations and the one thing you care about is having your list validated by some other (good) player instead of actually going outside of the box and thinking for yourself.
"

Dude, I've discussed tier lists in the Back Room long before people even knew who the **** that cocky little ***** called leffen even is

 

[JPOBS]

Stating why your tier lists are wrong when you either give zero reasoning, or just throw out empty words like:

"Puffs bair has incredible priority"
"Marth is weak once you get inside his range"
"Peach has good combos and good priority".

These types of statements are USELESS unless the reader knows that they come from a well thought out, smart source aka being a respected top player

If you are a low level player, then please realize this. I'm not saying don't make a tier list, but don't make one and just use the exact same reasoning you saw a better player use without actually understanding it. For some reason, people like to think that they have this huge weight to the community even though they should know better.

Look at Boat modes list. He changed his entire list (ordering ties) in a couple of minutes, and left no reasoning. Who the **** cares about what Boat mode thinks. Boat Mode, what a silly name, btw.

If Boat Mode would instead say, hey guys, I'm a marth main and I think his matchups against the top tiers are this this this, and I think he pairs up to this character because this characters matchups are like this this this. This makes for a constructive, and active debate.

People don't realize either, how much a single matchup changes everything.
IC's loses badly to Peach. Because of ICs overall good matchups, this makes Peach higher. ICs also beats Sheik and Jigglypuff, but since Peach is making the IC matchup less relevant it increases Sheiks and Puffs spot. But now, since Sheik is higher, and she still loses to Puff, Puff should go even higher (since the Sheik matchup being in her favor is now higher valued).

Since Spacies **** puff (imo), Puff being high raises their spots, and this also makes Marth higher since he beats the spacies, which increases Sheiks placement (since he ***** marth) and so on.

By showing what matchups you think a certain character wins, you are allowing way more constructive debate to happen and to more directly change your list. No one is ever gonna change Armada's mind about how good Jigglypuff is because "I think she dies early and her bair is overrated"

However, you do have a shot at changing his mind if you can just convince him that one of the matchups that he doesn't know, say CF vs Puff, is in CF favor/even since "well he kills her at 40% from any hit ->knee and her bair doesn't outrange his attacks, and his attacks cover way more angles then her linear back air".

But no. Mr Boat Mode doesn't like any of that. Mr Boat Mode likes to put up empty tier lists, who have hidden reasoning and have no one in the ****ing world care.

And no, boat mode isn't the only dumb noob in here. Tero, Jpobs, (almost) everyone, you all give ****ty freakin explanations and the one thing you care about is having your list validated by some other (good) player instead of actually going outside of the box and thinking for yourself.


Also, Armada. For the heck of it, please list what you feel Puffs matchups are in the ~top 15. I want you to actually show me them, and then compare them with Sheiks/Marths/Falcos and tell me that Puff is #2.
I honestly think that both you and I know that, somewhere, you know that you have been overrating Puff all this time but your hesitating to (really) change her placing simply because "I couldn't have been that wrong for so long"

> implying you're the only one who talks to top players
> implying anyone except YOU cares about having their opinions valiated by top players ("har me and armada think the same thing therefor im right derp")

Shut the f*** up n***a. Armada posted a list without any explanation either, so you look like a clown right now bro cuz your homie (armada) didnt justify s**t so how about you hop off everyone's nuts you litte c*nt.

 

[Deleted member]

Dude, I've discussed tier lists in the Back Room long before people even knew who **** that cocky little ***** called leffen even is

baby i'll take you back.

agree @ everything on doc vs falcon EXCEPT the luigi vs yoshi thing and thats only cause i've never seen it. no disagree either, just would like to confirm the idea for myself.

 

[Krynxe]

Calm down guys. Debating is one thing, but no need to get aggressive or rude. I'll be monitoring this thread, so please keep the discussion civil and please tone down the drama. We don't need any of that here.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Thanks Krynxe.


To everybody: I will be spending the next week off of smashboards and facebook. I am going to use this time to restructure and refocus things in my life. If you would like to contact me, I will be available on AIM, Skype, FBchat and Text. Technically my PMs go to my email so I may get those as well.

Be civil and keep the discussions rolling. Be cool ya'll

 

[Kyu Puff]

Falcon does better vs. Peach/Marth/Climbers (tho I think Doc vs Climbers is at least 50/50 or a Doc advantage without wobbling).

Minor point, but I think Doc is better against ICs than Falcon. Doc can force ICs to approach and systematically separate/kill them, while ICs have trouble finishing his stock (especially without wobbling). Falcon is also good at separating them, but he can't force them to approach (which completely changes the match-up dynamic), and he gets punished way harder (pretty much any move leads into grab).

Honestly, I believe ICs/Falcon is in IC's favor. I know most people will disagree with me, but this isn't a match-up chart, and the point is that Doc has a stronger match-up against them.

 

[unknown522]

Got some pretty interesting discussion going on

 

[Armada]

JPOBS: If you can read you would have seen that I said I WILL explain why I think like I does I don't feel I have the time right now but I will have it soon.

Leffen: Im not afraid of haveing wrong. Im just a human being and I have wrong a lot of times like everyone else and that's just normal.

 

[JPOBS]

Nothing against you bro. I look forward to your post

 

[Armada]

Nothing against you eihter!
Just wanted to say that I have plans to make that post.

Should be in the beginning of next week or something so be ready =)

 

[Lovage]

gay leffen has baby ****

 

[Mahone]

LOL, good one lovage

 

[♡ⓛⓞⓥⓔ♡]

Please people, please, please stop quoting Leffen's posts. I can't add that **** to my ignore list.

I'm not even joking, I'm serious. Every time I read his posts I get mad because even though he's a good player and knows about the game he has ZERO respect for other members on the boards judging from the way he writes.

 

[Lovage]

well

my only problem with leffen

is he treats the community like dog **** because they're too lazy to get better at the game

but then u watch his matches and u wonder where the **** he gets all this clout from lol


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jg-IOCXTYzM

 

[Kimimaru]

A few things
Also, Luigi beasts the crap out of Yoshi. All of Luigi's aerials beat Yoshi's DJ superarmor, and he combos the living balls out of him. Easy 90-10 if I've ever seen it.

I have little experience with this matchup but I honestly doubt it's that bad. Yoshi's worst matchup is arguably Peach and even that isn't 90-10. This is what I've noticed in the matchup:

Luigi's B-air and U-air do not beat out Yoshi's super armor until high percents, while F-air and D-air (which knock everyone else far) barely beat it around 65%, meaning Yoshi can still counterattack right after due to reduced hitstun. Yoshi's F-smash and D-tilt can beat out Luigi's horizontal approaches and U-smash, U-air, and U-tilt can beat Luigi's vertical approaches. Yoshi's B-air and U-air can also combo Luigi pretty well. Yoshi's D-tilt hits Luigi far, and if Luigi wants to sweetspot the ledge when recovering Yoshi can either D-tilt again, D-air, or do his DJ edge grab. However, Luigi can also edgeguard Yoshi well with his aerials and D-smash if Yoshi's percent is at mid-high range. Luigi's D-throw also combos into any of his other aerials and is a great setup for some additional combos.

With that said, I'd say the matchup is around even because both characters can combo and edgeguard each other well. It might even be slightly in Luigi's favor. Again, I don't have many Luigi players where I live so what I wrote could be wrong. Note that this all discounts parrying, and just one of those can turn the match around.

 

[leffen]

i'm gonna answers everyones post later...



but luigi-yoshi is not in any way in luigis favor wth are you smokin

I play this matchup a lot with ajp_anton lol. uair beats every aerial luigi has and bair outspaces his other moves if used correctly, and luigi can't space with aerials because of his air mobility anyway.
Luigi also gets *** ***** by yoshis dtilt... its the same as Fox's shine but sends further and has a better hitbox

 

[Tero.]

Luigi also gets *** ***** by yoshis dtilt... its the same as Fox's shine but sends further and has a better hitbox

Hey guys did you know yoshis dtilt is the same as Fox shine, but way better?

Gotta go change my tier list asap

 

[Blistering Speed]

Hey guys did you know yoshis dtilt is the same as Fox shine, but way better?

Gotta go change my tier list asap

He's just drawing a comparison because its edgeguarding utility is similarly dictated by its fixed knockback. Don't be pedantic.

 

[leffen]

If you don't consider how fast shine is, that you can jump cancel it, and that you can do it in the air, then yes.

Just thought you'd know this, but I guess being in the scene long doesn't matter at all if you're dumb

 

[The Star King]

Hey guys did you know yoshis dtilt is the same as Fox shine, but way better?

Gotta go change my tier list asap

Yeah that's definitely what Leffen said

Some mockery is justified, and some isn't

 

[Tero.]

If you don't consider how fast shine is, that you can jump cancel it, and that you can do it in the air, then yes.

Just thought you'd know this, but I guess being in the scene long doesn't matter at all if you're dumb

Sorry because of the simplemindedness of your prior posts I actually though you ment what you wrote.
In fact that was really dumb.
I guess every dog has his day...

He's just drawing a comparison because its edgeguarding utility is similarly dictated by its fixed knockback. Don't be pedantic.

Seems like you forgot about how leffen would be bull****tin on you or anybody else if you would've post something similar to that.

 

[t3h Icy]

From what I know, Leffen was rather quiet at Apex 2012, but he sure has had a lot to say since then.

 

[john!]

I've never seen any one person stifle as much otherwise intelligent discussion as you have.

I know that once upon a time, MLG gave a **** about this site and JV required the MBR to have International members. I don't personally know Aniolas, but I'm still embarrassed for him for giving you any kind of legitimacy for the next tier list. The European version of affirmative action was clearly incorrect, and I miss discussion with much more deserving members from Europe like Tero.

In the past when I was the leader of the MBR, I would have just kicked you or banned you without a second thought. Regrettably, I gave my position as leader and moderator to Cactuar. I expect Sveet or Cactuar to somehow legitimize your MBR membership, but in confidence I don't expect either of them to give you any kind of defense. Since I can't do either anymore, you're going to be the first person on my ignore list since I joined the boards nearly 10 years ago.

quoting this because it's the best post in the past 87435981 pages

leffen i know that you're a melee pro european asian master race genius... but that doesn't prevent you from being wrong

 

[odinNJ]

there are sometimes when i think that leffen, despite the knowledge that he brings to the community, actually ends up hurting it more because he is a jerk who claims that old ideas are useless.

however i have seen a trend of people taking old ideas and synthesising them into new statements and lists. but since the idea has been partially stated before he flags it as copypasting and just flames the person.

i am really glad that this community is full of civil people who like discussing tier lists and the like. but i do not like when people quote leffens posts, it makes ignore kind of useless.

also. my join date is 2012. holy **** im a scrub who obviously has ideas tainted with an unremovable aura of awfullness that fills everyfiber of my being and prevents others from even analysing my ideas before discarding them as trash that fills this website.

recommendation to admins, create an ignore button that blocks all users who are 2 years or younger, it would make some people very happy i guess

 

[Deleted member]

your post implies that new posters are scorned. this is not true. poor posters are scorned. there is a correlation between the two, but they aren't necessarily the same.

there are better places to look than melee discussion if you want to learn, particularly if you're creative.

 

[Jockmaster]

Nah man us 2012 posters aint gotten no respect yet, dont you know smash is a seniority-based hierarchy?

#2012joindateproblems

 

[RaphaelRobo]

I don't know what you guys are talking about, I've gotten plenty of respect. I guess that's what happens when half your posts don't make any sense, the other half are complete nonsense but kind of make sense, and the remaining half are semi-nude pictures of Ganondorf.

Then again, I'm a 2011 join date, so maybe that's the difference. Us 2011 guys are way cooler than you 2012 guys.

 

[john!]

after brawl came out, "08 posters" were by far the most hated minority on the entire boards

but, as always, the young will rise up and the old will fade away

 

[Jockmaster]

I was kidding, I feel that my posts are taken correctly for the amount of experience I have (basically a year of obsession).

I just normally don't weigh in on subjects like this where guys like Leffen get all salty about some people just posting their damn tier lists.

Smdh

 

[RaphaelRobo]

No, the only reason people listen to your posts is because of that avatar.