The Star King
Smash Hero
- Joined
- Nov 6, 2007
- Messages
- 9,681
Sweden rules leffen sucks
get it right Lovage
also rofl +1 to RaphaelRobo
get it right Lovage
also rofl +1 to RaphaelRobo
-
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Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List
- Thread starter Slhoka
- Start date
Beat!
Smash Master
Yo Sweden's pretty good
I'm not biased what are you talking about
I'm not biased what are you talking about
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2008
- Messages
- 26,560
currently in the process of making Leffen Discussion Thread
Competitive Brawl Discussion seems a suitable location for it
Competitive Brawl Discussion seems a suitable location for it
Niko45
Smash Master
For the record, I don't know Lovage but I'm pretty sure I want to be black way more than he ever could.
Eat a **** Leffen for suggesting otherwise
Eat a **** Leffen for suggesting otherwise
But you ARE black
Doser
Smash Ace
That's racist.
john!
Smash Hero
i know! and i thought sweden was a progressive country full of enlightened individuals...
JPOBS
Smash Hero
this last page has been amazing.
I'll try my best to answer this.
The most blatant weakness is he has no triple jump, so he's forced to rely on his air dodge to recover if he's knocked off stage without his double jump. His biggest weakness in my opinion is that he suffers from a lot of ending lag on many of his attacks, including his grabs. Speaking of grabs, his are very slow and have slightly less range than Marth's grab (the creators' reasoning behind this is beyond me). He can't jump out of shield except for his parry frames or when he powershields, and his side-B is useful only for tricking opponents or getting back on stage from the ledge. Also, N-air's hitbox doesn't even completely cover his foot in the front...
Also, Blistering Speed is partially correct on Yoshi having a hard time approaching. Usually landing an F-air will work, but he can also use a running grab or N-air; he doesn't need to rely on parrying, although it would help greatly.
I'm just a little annoyed how people are saying Yoshi is bad even though they don't know much about him. I see how other characters like Kirby and G&W aren't that great because they have so many weaknesses that are hard to ignore (and I've played them a good bit), but I don't see much of that with Yoshi and I play him 90% of the time. In my opinion, Yoshi is mid-tier; he's just too complex and has so many more options than the low tiers to be so far at the bottom. Also unlike the low tiers, Yoshi has ways of overcoming some of his weaknesses (parrying, super armor, etc.). Sure, he's not the best, but to put him so far down is downright inaccurate.
>Makes fun of people for taking thread seriously
>Proceeds to read and respond to every post
Armaaaaaaaaaada I still want to hear your reasoning for ICs > Falcon
Niko45
Smash Master
I'm flattered, but it's not true. Altho I can see how you made this mistake since I'd be the blackest person in Sweden for sure.
JPOBS
Smash Hero
I thought Niko was black before we met at ROM3
common misunderstanding
common misunderstanding
I still think Niko is black. Nothing you can do will change my mind.
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2008
- Messages
- 26,560
I met Niko and he is an African American.
leffen
Smash Champion
I don't really agree at all with this, and I've heard KK say it too... I don't understand where you're coming from.
First of, he has great approaches. Fair, Nair, Bair are all great tools to approach with, they easily lead into combos and are safe when spaced. His Uair picks off ANYTHING thats slightly above him, which makes any kind of aerial walling weak against him.
All of these moves are great vs shields and all are safe against spotdodges and the like. Fair has a 10 frame landing lag (same as fox bair) but since you can parry/jab away anyone who tries to dd grab you its pretty safe, especially when you compare it to a sh stomp with CF (same or better reward too)
his shield pressure ***** shields btw, especially if you use Parry to beat out shield grab attempts etc (like spacies do with shine)
Aside from that, he has great poking tools, and he also has an airgrab that is extremely disjointed.
He also has great movement, definitely the fastest platform movement in the game and he can come down in a million different ways combined with his DJ.
But even aside from that, the fact that he CANNOT be walled, AT ALL, is his best offensive trait. Sheik cannot space fair/bair against him. Fox cannot space bair. Falco cannot space bair/lasers. Puff cannot space bairs. Peach can't space fairs.
Myself I play a aggressive yoshi (like with my other characters) and trust me, he has no trouble handling it. His offense is mediocre by itself, but because you cannot counterattack him to stop him (cc/parry/djc/weaving with djc) it becomes sooooo much stronger.
@Yoshis weaknesses: Yoshi doesn't really have that many huuuuuge ones, to be really honest. He doesn't have a triple jump, which doesn't really matter, since his recovery is one of the best ingame anyway.
You can't jump out of shield, but he has Parry and no shield poking and the bestlightshield, the best shield drop, the best roll, tied for best spotdodge, so his shield is still by far the best ingame.
His biggest "flaw" is that he is hard to play. That's basically it. He is far more complex than any other character, and every matchup needs to be played ENTIRELY different because your gameplan revolves around theirs a lot. He is incredibly easy to SD with, and an accidental DJ or Egg canceled toss often costs you games.
However, do not think that this should interfere with his tier placement, at least not if you believe Falco/Fox are top tiers. Hes basically a more unique version of them.
Parrying consistently is once you've learned it, about as easy as hitting a shine (around the same hitbox, both require precise timing and JC).
I'll be working HARD on improving my Yoshi again (after taking a ~6month break after my one month of playing him) from now on. Seriously, all you naysayers will come crawling back and put him in the top 10 in no time.
@Pink reaper/whatever: I respond to posts because I find it fun, thats why I don't take this seriously. and the last one was done at 9am when I was literally too tired to sleep ;p
I also love the "omg why you no want INTELLIGENT posts".
I do plenty of long posts. Check my post history if you want, I have huge informative posts about shield drops, marth tech, yoshi tech, fox tech, powershielding tech, that are all pretty damn exclusive on this site.
Sadly, these boards are nowadays filled up with tons of ****, and any good post will NEVER get the attention it deserves. NEVER. Because of that I find it way more fun to provoke people and get 5 pages of one post than to write an essay on something important and get 2 answers with "lebby pls dat is cool but i dun get it"
JPOBS
Smash Hero
You make yoshi sound better than Marth
leffen
Smash Champion
well the main reason yoshi isn't top 5 is that he just doesn't have the STRENGTHS of the top tiers. Its not really his flaws holding him back, its more a case of the top tiers just being better
also holy **** that post was long GOD DAMN (wrote it during 5 separate occasions during the day lmao)
also holy **** that post was long GOD DAMN (wrote it during 5 separate occasions during the day lmao)
Rainbow
Smash Apprentice
Just curious leffen, but do you think that other established Yoshi players have not been playing the character to his fullest potential, or rather, even close to his fullest potential?
From what I gather if they are, Yoshi should have much better tournament results, and if they aren't, isn't everything just theory?
Hopefully you come out of your training session and kick some *** with Yoshi, but if you don't, will you still contend that he is high or mid tier?
From what I gather if they are, Yoshi should have much better tournament results, and if they aren't, isn't everything just theory?
Hopefully you come out of your training session and kick some *** with Yoshi, but if you don't, will you still contend that he is high or mid tier?
Jockmaster
Smash Ace
lebby pls dat is cool but i dun get it
leffen
Smash Champion
There has been no "established" yoshi players in the current metagame
Vman played for a short while, did decent at pound 5 but other than that never placed high, even at locals (afaik), and then "quit" yoshi.
Mind Trick placed decent all the time in holland, then quit "because beating falco was impossible". I told him "I'd beat any falco main you lose to" and he answered back with "If you beat faab in a bo3 then I'll start maining yoshi fulltime again".
I 1 month later beat Faab 2-0 in a bo3, told him but no answer. Scrub.
Angel is noteworthy because hes an upncomer, really looking forward to see this guy improve. Sadly, just like anyone who is really new to the game, he isn't THAT good yet, but that isn't Yoshis fault, that is plain and simple inexperience.
I played yoshi for one month, entered 3 different "nationals (30man tournaments in europe no armada basically) and swept all of them, not losing a set, but then I lost interest for some random reason, so I stopped playing him, even in friendlies.
I'm now back though and will start to rep him asap
oh and Fumi ***** japan, in japans tier list Yoshi was top tier FYI. lool
and i'm not gonna say that I won't change my mind on Yoshi, because I don't know what tech I and others will find about him in the future. If I lose because new techniques/improvements are made that I do not see atm, then of course that will lower my view of his strength as a character.
If I lose because I'm not good enough, which is the likely case in these type of scenarios, then no, I won't change my opinion.
Grim Tuesday
Smash Legend
Fumi played so long ago that he doesn't even count for anything lol
Warhawk
Smash Lord
Its still interesting to note that in a region that had a high-level Yoshi that Yoshi was perceived as significantly better. There are regions with really good low tier mains, but that still doesn't jump that character 10 or even 5 spots for that region's general perception of them.
Max?
Smash Champion
choknater
Smash Obsessed
haha they thought link was better than ice climber
Does anyone have any reasoning for why they think he should be as low as he is? Leffen did a good job highlighting his strengths, and the few Yoshi mains out there know how much he can do. I have Ness as a secondary and play him frequently and understand why he's so low, but Yoshi is my main and I never understood why he was never higher up on the list. It just seems wrong to assume a character is bad if you don't know much about him/her.
Jigglypuff is supposedly one of the best characters in the game, but very few people main it. This is attributed to Jigglypuff's very simple playstyle. However, Yoshi is a lot more complex than Jigglypuff, so I think that's a reason people don't want to take the time to analyze him.
Jigglypuff is supposedly one of the best characters in the game, but very few people main it. This is attributed to Jigglypuff's very simple playstyle. However, Yoshi is a lot more complex than Jigglypuff, so I think that's a reason people don't want to take the time to analyze him.
Divinokage
Smash Legend
It's not really about knowing more about him, it's about proving he can actually do it. Though i guess very few would actually take the risk to take a bad character and try to do well with him. Or maybe not many love Yoshi enough to push him that far. =P
Grim Tuesday
Smash Legend
On that note, the new PAL tier list:
S TIER:
Pichu
Kirby
Ness
Bowser
A TIER:
Mr. Game & Watch
Yoshi
Mewtwo
Roy
Zelda
B TIER:
Young Link
Link
C TIER:
Donkey Kong
Luigi
Mario
Pikachu
D TIER:
Samus
Ganondorf
Dr. Mario
E TIER:
Ice Climbers
F TIER:
Captain Falcon
Peach
Marth
G TIER:
Sheik
Jigglypuff
Falco
Fox
Before you post about how you disagree with this list; remember that PAL is COMPLETELY different to NTSC - Characters like Yoshi can be viable in one game and unviable in the other simply because of a few small changes.
S TIER:
Pichu
Kirby
Ness
Bowser
A TIER:
Mr. Game & Watch
Yoshi
Mewtwo
Roy
Zelda
B TIER:
Young Link
Link
C TIER:
Donkey Kong
Luigi
Mario
Pikachu
D TIER:
Samus
Ganondorf
Dr. Mario
E TIER:
Ice Climbers
F TIER:
Captain Falcon
Peach
Marth
G TIER:
Sheik
Jigglypuff
Falco
Fox
Before you post about how you disagree with this list; remember that PAL is COMPLETELY different to NTSC - Characters like Yoshi can be viable in one game and unviable in the other simply because of a few small changes.
john!
Smash Hero
no, that's the australian tier list.
Again, how are you so sure he's "bad"? Or is everything under B tier considered that? I think it is about knowing more about him because if you don't know something how can you judge it?
In any case, I can't blame any of you for not thinking too highly of him; after all, we barely have any results.
V3ctorMan
Smash Champion
Leffen knows what's up..
Yoshi is amazing..
I still play, just nobody knows I do...
Fumi's awesome
about time you came back leffen to yoshi... Now I may actually have a reason to play....
I dont really enter locals... that's Angel.. and if I do.. I play my Roy..
Uhh yeah melee
Yoshi is still sick... I'll have a repeat like Pound V (or better performance).. don't let leffen+me team up.
uhh yeah
yoshi > thread
Yoshi is amazing..
I still play, just nobody knows I do...
Fumi's awesome
about time you came back leffen to yoshi... Now I may actually have a reason to play....
I dont really enter locals... that's Angel.. and if I do.. I play my Roy..
Uhh yeah melee
Yoshi is still sick... I'll have a repeat like Pound V (or better performance).. don't let leffen+me team up.
uhh yeah
yoshi > thread
Bones0
Smash Legend
Vman name searches...
"Uhh yeah melee"
AND THE CROWD GOES WILD!
"Uhh yeah melee"
AND THE CROWD GOES WILD!
V3ctorMan
Smash Champion
^nah I lurk alot.... I like the idea that people don't think I play... it makes my expectations "lower" which is fine.... plus being underrated is the new thing anyway... ^^ Less pressure = happier me..
but i can still perform when I need to.. I can reassure you. ^^
Uhhhhh,,
i'm a go to subway.. n_n
<3 Yoshi
but i can still perform when I need to.. I can reassure you. ^^
Uhhhhh,,
i'm a go to subway.. n_n
<3 Yoshi
I am not a 9f*g FYI.
Divinokage
Smash Legend
There is no pressure even vs the best in the world, all you need to do is **** them up. All the other thoughts while playing is generally bad. =)^nah I lurk alot.... I like the idea that people don't think I play... it makes my expectations "lower" which is fine.... plus being underrated is the new thing anyway... ^^ Less pressure = happier me..
but i can still perform when I need to.. I can reassure you. ^^
Uhhhhh,,
i'm a go to subway.. n_n
<3 Yoshi
Kimimaru, I have played vs Vectorman at the very least with Ganon. It was nothing I could not handle, if a character has a lot of gimmicks in order for him to win then I can immediately realize why it works the way it works and then apply a counter-attack for it. Even if he can parry most attacks all you need to space well and Yoshi cant do much about it. There's no time to counter-attack when you are too far and also if you expect a counter-attack which is very often then it also gets predictable. That trick is shallow imo.
knightpraetor
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Oct 20, 2005
- Messages
- 2,321
says one of the few char who has the range to abuse..most matchups don't have that option of dealing with yoshi...though technically marth does as well..but leffen only said that yoshi deserved to move up a lot..not that he was on par with marth or even ganon
Lovage
Smash Hero
ganons a way better gimmick than yoshi
yoshis a piece of **** and leffen will never use him in tournament
yoshis a piece of **** and leffen will never use him in tournament
Rainbow
Smash Apprentice
Wow, there is a ton of text here. I kind of want to see this translated.