Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List

[Divinokage]

ganons a way better gimmick than yoshi


yoshis a piece of **** and leffen will never use him in tournament

Ya we are talking about NTSC, Leffen's experience is skewed because he plays PAL and Yoshi is obviously stronger because all the character nerfs and Yoshi's buffs. He cannot use nearly as many tricks in the US.

says one of the few char who has the range to abuse..most matchups don't have that option of dealing with yoshi...though technically marth does as well..but leffen only said that yoshi deserved to move up a lot..not that he was on par with marth or even ganon

I'm not talking about abusing range, I'm talking about abusing proper space. A lot of character have moves where hitting a shield keeps them safe. You can probably attack Yoshi in a lot of angles where he can't counter-attack. I just can't see it how he would be able to deal with someone who knows how to pick his attacks properly.. most of his attacks come out pretty slow so it's easy to use another hitbox to counter him since he doesnt have good priority. Like if you think he'll shield on a platform, you can just fade away an aerial and go back down, how is he suppose to retaliate to that? Shield drop into Nair doesnt have enough range nor speed to deal with that and that's basically his only option if he wants to get a hit. And shield drop is basically another gimmick which is predictable since Yoshi has to rely on that. I just feel like the character is too one dimensional to do many combos or deal a lot of dmg.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Ya we are talking about NTSC, Leffen's experience is skewed because he plays PAL and Yoshi is obviously stronger because all the character nerfs and Yoshi's buffs. He cannot use nearly as many tricks in the US.

 

[Ripple]

I don't understand how you think it makes basically no difference between versions.

yoshi by himself is tons better.

he is 3 points heavier which makes him die outright about 9% later
his f-smash and up-smash do 1% more which makes his attack safer and kill 10-15% earlier on ALL characters

these are not minor differences.


then fox is worse, sheik can't CG him.

Hell, Yoshi should be around Doc on the tier list in PAL

 

[Bones0]

You could fade away after hitting Yoshi's shield on a plat, but he can probably shield drop into a DJC nair and hit you no matter how far you fade unless it's like Marth's bair or if you are on YS and ledge cancel into a ledge grab for invincibility before he gets to you. Even if you can hit his shield on a plat and stay safe, it doesn't get you anywhere. You potentially give up massive stage control, and at the very least you give him space to work with.

 

[knightpraetor]

more than the shield drops i would be worried about parries...that match vs the samus the yoshi was parrying about as consistently as i powershield so i don't think it is that hard of a tech skill. when i get back to america i should probably play with it some

 

[Divinokage]

You could fade away after hitting Yoshi's shield on a plat, but he can probably shield drop into a DJC nair and hit you no matter how far you fade unless it's like Marth's bair or if you are on YS and ledge cancel into a ledge grab for invincibility before he gets to you. Even if you can hit his shield on a plat and stay safe, it doesn't get you anywhere. You potentially give up massive stage control, and at the very least you give him space to work with.

If you go on the platform while trying to hit him on a platform then that's not the correct way to pressure him unless he's already knocked down. There's no way his nair comes out that quickly, you should always have time to deal with the next upcoming attack.

 

[Max?]

Wow, there is a ton of text here. I kind of want to see this translated.

Google Chrome will translate it for you. It's dated back to early 07, explains how their rankings work, and a bunch of advanced techniques which you should already know.

 

[Kimimaru]

Kage, I think you're underestimating how quick a parry is. Even if you properly space an attack and aren't Peach (for aerials), you'll experience some sort of lag, but if the Yoshi parries he won't experience any. Yoshi can immediately wavedash to you and close the gap easily or do something else because he has good air speed. It's basically like hitting someone when they have the starting invincibility after a stock except Yoshi has to jump.

On platforms Yoshi can lightshield and get pushed off by literally anything, even Fox's lasers. Believe it or not, Yoshi's N-air is just as fast as Peach's (comes out on frame 3) and lasts a bit longer but isn't as strong, so it's a good counter attack.

I agree Yoshi is a lot better in PAL but that doesn't stop him from moving up even a little bit on the NTSC list.

 

[Deleted member]

Does anyone have any reasoning for why they think he should be as low as he is?

Because, like other low tiers, he's ruined by simple top tier tactics. Yoshi straight folds to simple things like proper dashdancing, throw > combos, crouch grabs, intelligent edge guarding, etc. Basically all of the things that Yoshi loses to are things you should already be doing. Yoshi also doesn't have the tools to do those things back. He has no fast move out of a dashdance, might as well not even have a grab, and has serious holes when edge guarding himself. So once again, playing normally rewards you and you need relatively little character specific knowledge to beat him. The inability for Yoshi to compete with the viable characters on either an offensive or defensive level is why he is so low on the tier list. That and a total lack of results, something we've ignored up to this point to shut leffen up since he's sidestepped logic at every feasible point for the last week.

It's not ignorant when you ignore that Yoshi can parry. Parry is not a good answer to movement into grab abuse any more than sidestepping is. It's much better to have a traditional shield that allows movement as a means to minimize lag (jump, WD). It's is not ignorant to say that Yoshi can be edge guarded, as his 2nd jump can be properly navigated and still edge guarded with experience about as well as any other edge guard.

It IS ignorant to say that Yoshi does not change for PAL version. Having a much better Sheik matchup and a significant weight increase are major, major buffs that absolutely shouldn't be ignored, as they have a pure correlation to his tournament viability.

The end result is that Yoshi is still just a really bad character. I still think Roy is better than Yoshi simply because Roy has a top tier-valued dashdance and grab game. Yoshi might be as good as D tier in Europe, but who cares?

 

[Bones0]

If you go on the platform while trying to hit him on a platform then that's not the correct way to pressure him unless he's already knocked down. There's no way his nair comes out that quickly, you should always have time to deal with the next upcoming attack.

I thought you were talking about hitting from underneath the plat. If you're actually on top of the plat when you hit him, you're definitely screwed. He'll shield drop (maybe DJC to follow a fade away) uair, and even if you avoid it, he's on the ground under the plat that you just jumped from.

 

[Kimimaru]

Because, like other low tiers, he's ruined by simple top tier tactics. Yoshi straight folds to simple things like proper dashdancing, throw > combos, crouch grabs, intelligent edge guarding, etc. Yoshi also doesn't have the tools to do those things back. He has no fast move out of a dashdance, might as well not even have a grab, and has serious holes when edge guarding himself.

By that logic Fox should be low on the tier list because he gets combo'd hard by pretty much every character in the game, chain grabbed by too many, crumbles to most side smashes at 70%, and edgeguarded really hard. And who can he chaingrab? Falco is the only one that comes to mind. I don't see why Sheik being the only one able to chaingrab Yoshi is such a big deal, especially since he does well against her if he can avoid it. Also, everyone falls to intelligent edgeguarding. Yoshi's grab game isn't good, but against most fast fallers he gains a lot from landing a grab.

Basically all of the things that Yoshi loses to are things you should already be doing.

This doesn't make much sense because if you should be doing these things to begin with it means they'll work against everyone else.

Yoshi's edge game is insane, simply put. He has too many ways to grab the ledge and ledgestall. In addition, those eggs of his can rack up damage and lead to other attacks when the opponent is recovering.

Also, parrying is probably the ultimate defensive ability in the game because it's free invincibility without lag. It can be used to counter grabs, attacks, projectiles, or whatever the opponent wants to throw at you.

I don't see how Leffen has been sidestepping logic. Sure, there aren't many Yoshi results, but he's informing people why Yoshi is better than many perceive him to be. Neither I nor him are claiming Yoshi is top tier; we're simply giving reasons we think he's better.

If anything, Yoshi is just a misunderstood character with very few people knowing much about him at all. One can't pick him up for a few matches and realize his full potential immediately; he's just too complex.

Yoshi might be as good as D tier in Europe, but who cares?

I care, and so should everyone else if they're trying to make a tier list. Even in SSB64 most people have knowledge about low tiers. Take Link for example; he used to be at the bottom, but people found out he's better than they thought and Ness was worse than they thought and moved Link up and Ness down. I also see people playing more than the same 5 characters in SSB64, which makes it much more diverse and enjoyable when it comes to player competition. Most Melee players are reluctant to go any lower than S tier for some reason. Simply put, the Melee community can learn a lot from the SSB64 community by simply being open-minded.

 

[Mind Trick]

Mind Trick placed decent all the time in holland, then quit "because beating falco was impossible". I told him "I'd beat any falco main you lose to" and he answered back with "If you beat faab in a bo3 then I'll start maining yoshi fulltime again".

I 1 month later beat Faab 2-0 in a bo3, told him but no answer. Scrub.

lol
not how it went
and actually came back to yoshi but w/e

in short
lots of potential left in yoshi, just have to be ridiculously technically consistent
will not be realised by me because I dont have the time anymore (work fulltime weekends, study fulltime weekdays)
umbreon probably forgetting you can parry grabs and leffen actualy has some results

kinda wanna go to smash reunion, because I really wanna meet leffen ahahaha
tickets ****ing expensive now sadly though

 

[Bones0]

I don't see why Sheik being the only one able to chaingrab Yoshi is such a big deal, especially since he does well against her if he can avoid it.

I believe both Marios have a chain grab on him as well...

 

[Divinokage]

Kage, I think you're underestimating how quick a parry is. Even if you properly space an attack and aren't Peach (for aerials), you'll experience some sort of lag, but if the Yoshi parries he won't experience any. Yoshi can immediately wavedash to you and close the gap easily or do something else because he has good air speed. It's basically like hitting someone when they have the starting invincibility after a stock except Yoshi has to jump.

I am not, once again it's a predictable gimmick where you can simply change the timing of your attacks so that the Yoshi cannot parry effectively. Without that his counter-attack strategy are absolutely terrible. If you could PS 100% of the time then fine it's awesome but no one will be able to do that and because of that, it is not a reliable tool.

 

[V3ctorMan]

I really enjoy reading this thread right now...

I will write a writeup if time allows it...

I think I have knowledge that I could share that could help everyone understand Yoshi a bit more..

I use him in major tourneys too, so i can bring my experience to the table too..

Hope the thread stays about Yoshi, till I get back from work ^^

 

[Kimimaru]

Kage, Yoshi can then counter that by simply changing the timings of his parries or faking it with an attack. This discussion all comes down to player skill, though; if one player starts countering another's strategy, the other has to find a counter to the counter and so on. Parrying is beatable like every other tactic in the game, but if used right it essentially counters all of the opponent's approaches. Also don't forget the DJ super armor, which can be used in a similar manner.

 

[Divinokage]

I thought you were talking about hitting from underneath the plat. If you're actually on top of the plat when you hit him, you're definitely screwed. He'll shield drop (maybe DJC to follow a fade away) uair, and even if you avoid it, he's on the ground under the plat that you just jumped from.

I was.. did I miss something?

@Kimimaru, You cant just change the timing of parries, are you kidding me?

 

[V3ctorMan]

and Kage, you made ti seem like you like murdered me in our matches..

meanieface... <3

We had nice friendlies, and both games were (1 stock) close ^^

but yeah i did indeed lose.. I underestimated, alot about Ganon, but again as Kage stated, I never felt like I was stuck/cornered or anything... I felt I could've won, and still feel Yoshi vs Ganon is very winnable/doable... and isn't as bad as most would claim..

Random note: We still doin the Roy vs Ganon MM at FC?!?

Keep the thread about Yoshi!! ^^

BTW Kage I'll still pay you for that Giant Yoshi, if you can order me one ^^ <3

 

[Bones0]

I was.. did I miss something?

@Kimimaru, You cant just change the timing of parries, are you kidding me?

Oh, nvm then. Yeah, you will get shield drop naired before you can do anything except maybe shield if you are able to hit them right before you land.

 

[Divinokage]

and Kage, you made ti seem like you like murdered me in our matches..

meanieface... <3

We had nice friendlies, and both games were (1 stock) close ^^

but yeah i did indeed lose.. I underestimated, alot about Ganon, but again as Kage stated, I never felt like I was stuck/cornered or anything... I felt I could've won, and still feel Yoshi vs Ganon is very winnable/doable... and isn't as bad as most would claim..

Random note: We still doin the Roy vs Ganon MM at FC?!?

Keep the thread about Yoshi!! ^^

BTW Kage I'll still pay you for that Giant Yoshi, if you can order me one ^^ <3

Ya we are doing the MM, how much? =P I guess I could bring the yoshi again.

 

[Kimimaru]

@Kimimaru, You cant just change the timing of parries, are you kidding me?

I was referring to when you decide to parry the opponent's attacks. If you catch on to the opponent faking you out then you can beat his/her fakeout. I realize Yoshi players won't parry 100% consistently, but calling parrying a gimmick is like calling powershielding a gimmick.

 

[Pink Reaper]

Powershielding is a gimmick. PSing projectiles is a very real thing, but no one PS's normal attacks with extreme consistency. It's just too difficult. Hell even that AZ Yoshi player basically only parried missiles and NOTHING else. Im not going to go so far as to say parrying isnt a cool tool to have, but it's not nearly as powerful as you're making it appear to be.

 

[Divinokage]

I was referring to when you decide to parry the opponent's attacks. If you catch on to the opponent faking you out then you can beat his/her fakeout. I realize Yoshi players won't parry 100% consistently, but calling parrying a gimmick is like calling powershielding a gimmick.

Parrying an attack is like if I use PS into jab because they are still in lag while they are hitting me so my jab comes out as they are falling from their aerial.. in tournament play it's just not possible to use it consistently. I get it like 2-5% of the time which means it only happens if im really confident in the read though i would rather simply counter-attack it normally without running the risk to do something crazy like this. It's the exact same thing with Yoshi except he can retaliate differently and only with aerials which is also not very reliable.

 

[Nogzor'z]

Parrying is not a gimmick...
It's a useful tool that basically gives yoshi options in pressured situations that people normally don't think he has. I've performed it here and there, but I am far from exceptional utilization.
The samus match-up simply calls for extensive use of parrying projectiles since her missiles are common and easy to parry/reflect.
If useful tool=gimmick then whatever...

 

[Divinokage]

Gimmicks are pretty much one dimensional uses which I think parrying falls under. It's nice and all but when you have to rely on it to win, that's where it begins to fail pretty hard. I understand he needs it which is why if it's part of his main tactics, he will never go very far. If you play only with the fundamentals, Yoshi is very weak if you fight someone straight up.

 

[Nogzor'z]

It goes like this:

1)Top tier of your choice uses strong offensive move (falcon D-air, falco d-air, spacie n-air, ganon f-air, etc)

2)They space it as to force opponent into shield (if not hitting with it)

3)As someone stated (hitting opponent shield properly is "safe")

4)they continue pressure

***EXCEPT, yoshi is prepared for this all too common set up and acutually parries the attacks and retaliates before the opponent is even out of their normally safely spaced attack's lag (remember yoshi's shield has strangely low frames of stun and will be active much sooner that you if parry is done right)

Upon finally realizing yoshi's options, the opponent usually chooses to back off from what is common offensive top tier tactics and play defensively

Regardless of whether it is a gimmick or not the very idea of parrying eases up yoshi's supposed areas where he performs poorly (being forced into shield) and removes some of the "fundamental play" that top tier can use to easily beat yoshi.

This doesn't even include utilizing his DJ armor which I feel functions strongly in this "fundamental play."

 

[Fregadero]

This thread is waaaaaay too much theory right now. I think these dudes need to show us whats up before we keep playing super theory bros.

Aka Leffen/Vman/Kimimaru lets see what you got

 

[Kimimaru]

Parrying an attack is like if I use PS into jab because they are still in lag while they are hitting me so my jab comes out as they are falling from their aerial

The difference between parrying is there's no lag, unlike a powershield. Yoshi doesn't necessarily need parrying, but it definitely improves his game. It certainly isn't easy to use, but neither is Yoshi as a whole.

 

[Wake]

I don't see how it's a gimmick. Wouldn't a gimmick be something like, "a strategy that shouldn't work twice" or something similar? If you can parry, then I don't understand how it could be a gimmick.

 

[Warhawk]

Parrying is not the same as powershielding...

 

[Mind Trick]

analogy to PSing is flawed, if you miss your PS you're stuck in shield
not to mention parry works on grabs and feels like an easier window because of Yoshi's frame and weird shield shape (even more so when ducking or facing other way)

also, because it's a jc, upsmash and grab are also options, djc's are usually amazing punishes and combostarters though because how fast you can get them to come out
another thing people are forgetting, you can do this before EVERY JUMP AND WAVEDASH you perform, specially usefull for safe shieldpressure stuff

I dont even know what fighting someone straight up means

 

[Deleted member]

By that logic Fox should be low on the tier list because he gets combo'd hard by pretty much every character in the game, chain grabbed by too many, crumbles to most side smashes at 70%, and edgeguarded really hard. And who can he chaingrab? Falco is the only one that comes to mind. I don't see why Sheik being the only one able to chaingrab Yoshi is such a big deal, especially since he does well against her if he can avoid it. Also, everyone falls to intelligent edgeguarding. Yoshi's grab game isn't good, but against most fast fallers he gains a lot from landing a grab.

Fox has tons of things that make his character substantially better than Yoshi can ever be to the point where the comparison is silly. Fox got half of the stages in the game banned. Fox makes more than half of the cast (including yoshi) unplayable in a tournament setting.

Fox's chaingrabs have nothing to do with this conversation.

Sheik's CG on yoshi existing in NTSC means that almost anyone that knows you play yoshi can attempt to lame you out in a bracket. As a yoshi player, you can go into any given bracket set with a possible 90-10 matchup against you simply because your opponents knows what character you play. Any strategy that is easily hated out becomes nonviable in any game.

If anything, Yoshi is just a misunderstood character with very few people knowing much about him at all. One can't pick him up for a few matches and realize his full potential immediately; he's just too complex.

Yoshi may or may not be misunderstood, but he's definitely a bad character relative to the rest of the cast. No character in the game has had their full potential realized immediately. Except maybe Zelda.

I care, and so should everyone else if they're trying to make a tier list. Simply put, the Melee community can learn a lot from the SSB64 community by simply being open-minded.

Fair enough, but I don't think I'm being close-minded about this in particular. I know how to judge a character based on their tools, and I really just don't think that Yoshi's tools are very good at all. The lack of understanding of the character and the lack of results should support this idea.

For the record, being an easy character is a good thing. "Complexity" is definitely a hindrance.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I don't understand how you think it makes basically no difference between versions.

yoshi by himself is tons better.

he is 3 points heavier which makes him die outright about 9% later
his f-smash and up-smash do 1% more which makes his attack safer and kill 10-15% earlier on ALL characters

these are not minor differences.


then fox is worse, sheik can't CG him.

Hell, Yoshi should be around Doc on the tier list in PAL

With this logic, Doc should be at least 10 places higher than Mario.

 

[Kimimaru]

Fox has tons of things that make his character substantially better than Yoshi can ever be to the point where the comparison is silly. Fox got half of the stages in the game banned. Fox makes more than half of the cast (including yoshi) unplayable in a tournament setting.

I was referring to you saying how Yoshi gets beat by normal tactics, but so does Fox and the rest of the cast. I was simply saying that Fox is more vulnerable to combos and chaingrabs than Yoshi. I'm not doubting Fox's abilities, but I think you're overestimating them a little because other characters can compete with him.

Sheik's CG on yoshi existing in NTSC means that almost anyone that knows you play yoshi can attempt to lame you out in a bracket. As a yoshi player, you can go into any given bracket set with a possible 90-10 matchup against you simply because your opponents knows what character you play. Any strategy that is easily hated out becomes nonviable in any game.

I don't quite agree with this. If Yoshi gets grabbed by Sheik at 0%, he takes probably 70% max. If anyone gets grabbed by the Ice Climbers, it probably means death. This does not mean that everyone will lose to the Ice Climbers, and the same holds for Yoshi vs. Sheik (M2K and V3ctorman both think it's winnable for Yoshi).

Fair enough, but I don't think I'm being close-minded about this in particular. I know how to judge a character based on their tools, and I really just don't think that Yoshi's tools are very good at all. The lack of understanding of the character and the lack of results should support this idea.

I think it's the opposite; the lack of understanding makes people think he has worse tools than he really does.

I am now going to question Yoshi's position in low tier:

Zelda: Why is she above Yoshi? She basically relies on F-air and B-air, which are extremely predictable, and she has no good shield pressure, and can't combo well.

Roy: Basically all of his attacks have ridiculously weak sour spots. His recovery is also very bad because he falls really fast. Sure, he has good dash dancing, grabs, D-tilt, and F-smash, but that's about it. Why is he above Yoshi?

Mewtwo: He has a MUCH harder time approaching and killing than Yoshi, and most of his attacks have very little range. He has a great recovery, but suffers from being very lightweight and a big target. Why is he considered better than Yoshi?

I think Yoshi at the very least should be above these three characters. He can deal with most situations much better than them and has good range and very solid attacks/advanced techniques.

Complexity definitely is a hindrance to any character. I'm saying that the reason most people don't know much about Yoshi is he's complex.

By the way, I completely respect yours and everyone else's opinions. If I sound harsh sometimes, it's not intentional.

 

[Ripple]

With this logic, Doc should be at least 10 places higher than Mario.

This doesn't follow my logic at all.

Doc doesn't change in PAL.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Let me go back a bit here.

1. Where do you put Yoshi on both NTSC/PAL lists?
2. How far apart do you put Mario/Doc on NTSC list?

 

[Ripple]

Yoshi in NTSC imo would be below DK and in PAL he'd be just below or just above pika so +3/4. but not into a new tier. I take that back, maybe into the bottom of the next tier

as for mario and Doc they are agree with where he is now maybe -1 (mario). which is -3/4. but into a lower tier.

PAL mario IDK since he was nerfed but his overall goodness might be improved since the nerfs to high tiers

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Imagine you had 2 different characters:
One of them does +1 better against Sheik, and slightly better against everyone else (but not enough to change the ratio).

Would you really put them in two different tiers? o_O

 

[Ripple]

are you talking about the marios?

I feel as though Doc does much better than Mario in his MUs. and enough to change his spread significantly.

I think mario is trash. I beat tom R's mario (known for his mario being amazing)in the midwest with my DK.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I was talking about the Yoshis, actually.