Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List

[Grim Tuesday]

That match-up probably is only slightly Ganon's favour, so it wouldn't be unreasonable for Link to beat Ganon.

But when you have a Ganon beating the former best player in the world... twice, you should probably question whether "ganon kinda gets wrecked".

 

[ViperGold42]

weak anecdotal evidence from a bad example
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pb5ZE-HxVBE
link > ganondorf folks

maybe....maybe not.

 

[ShroudedOne]

Mango vs. Kage says otherwise.

The entire metagame since then (Hbox vs Kage) does not.

 

[Strong Badam]

But when you have a Ganon beating the former best player in the world... twice, you should probably question whether "ganon kinda gets wrecked".

like seriously? he was hungover/not trying... i don't think anyone takes that set seriously anymore. watch hbox vs. kage in crews at apex. he 2-stocks him on probably ganon's best stage in the MU.

also mango's jiggs is just not a very good standard, it was the best at one point but hbox really revolutionized the character. pointing to sets of it is about as relevant as pointing to ken's marth.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I agree. Also, look into hbox's numerous sets with Linguini

 

[Ripple]

I've been thinking a lot about the tier list in 2012 and the future. Personally, I think Falco is solid at #1.

Viable:
Falco
Fox/Puff
Sheik
Marth
Peach
ICs
Falcon

Semi-viable:
Ganon
Doc
Samus/Mario
Luigi/Pikachu

Gray area:
Yoshi
Young Link
DK/Link
Zelda

Un-viable:
Roy/Mewtwo
G&W
Bowser/Ness
Kirby/Pichu

What do people think about this list?

Id agree with the top and bottom tiers but in the middle iswhere I disagree.

Samus tied with mario? Absolutely not. Samus is MUCH better than mario. Recovery/combos/MUspread. All clearly better than marios.

I think she even has a better MU spread than ganon.

So

Samus
Doc
Ganon

 

[Bing]

Everyone disagrees with the middle tiers... we will never truly have that sorted out lol

 

[Strong Badam]

the real secret is to stop giving a **** and worry about getting better at the game

 

[odinNJ]

sveet i like that list except for g and w being below roy/mewtwo, also samus is not that bad, puff is worse than fox, and i still think weeg is better than that

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Id agree with the top and bottom tiers but in the middle iswhere I disagree.

Samus tied with mario? Absolutely not. Samus is MUCH better than mario. Recovery/combos/MUspread. All clearly better than marios.

I think she even has a better MU spread than ganon.

So

Samus
Doc
Ganon

I'm probably biased with mario the same way I am with zelda, having watched Tom beat darkrain's falcon and kels' sheik with mario.

What matchups does samus have over ganondorf? They both do alright vs ICs but ganon does better vs marth and puff. I would say samus doesn't lose as bad against spacies, but that is somewhat a moot point.

 

[Lovage]

samus is pretty decent on paper, but in my heart of hearts it's doc > ganon > samus SRY HUGO
and i think ness is worse than kirby hehehe

 

[odinNJ]

ness is ffar better than kirby

 

[RaphaelRobo]

http://youtu.be/KIIAZLVgQSY

Kirby is better than Sheik. Kirby is top tier.

 

[twizzlerj]

the real secret is to stop giving a **** and worry about getting better at the game

this is the best thing I've seen on this thread in a while

 

[leffen]

Puff is terrible.
Jigglypuff has the results of a low tier

No one knows how to play vs Jigglypuff.

Jigglypuff cannot react to things, she needs bold reads to get anything.

Jigglypuffs back air spacing is one of the most overrated things in the game and requires immense amounts of skills to use at a high level

Jigglypuff loses to:
Fox (big)
Falco
Marth
IC's
YL
CF
Yoshi (not kidding)


Things ppl need to do against her:

-Option select. This is something ppl suck soooo bad at. You can easily option select so that her "tomahawks" (her only real option against shields) becomes worthless. With this you can simply run into her spacing and force her to forfeit space to safely space on your shield

"Option select" DI against her grab/utilt/upair
While shield pressuring her with spacies, always fast fall/shine by holding the analog stick down+forward. If you wanna be even more safe, hold straight to the side where your shield pressure is grabable.
Holding down+forward/back doesn't make you spotdodge or roll while shielding, so use it whenever she has a ->move->rest.

-DI/Tech/React better. You see PP getting Uthrow rested all the time. You see PP get pound->jab reset->rested. Lots of players get roll tech->rested. Its still common for puffs to get multiple rests by baiting a side b on stage and resting it (whenever you see her sit there, just shorten your side b on reaction, makes this GIMMICK useless). Utilt/late uair->Rest is almost impossible to combo with proper DI.

These are things that should just not happen unless you screw up. Puff is simply too slow to cover to correct DI+Teching as long as the opponent reacts to where puff is.
All of the above are faults of the players, not strengths of Jigglypuff

-Punish better. Learn puff specific combos. Learn to only get second hit uairs with fox (works up to 111%, regardless of DI!). Having trouble timing jumps out of uthrows/etc because of her light weight? Buffer jump with Cstick+Shield to get your combos EVERY TIME (great with Docs dthrow fair esp)

-Lightshield camp. ***** every kind of utilt and makes it useless on shield.

-Platform camp. She can barely space at all against proper platform camping since she moves so slowly vertically and since her last jumps barely help her, you can drop onto her for free if she tries to get onto a platform. Lightshielding/Shield Dropping annihilates every poke from below (and since she is so slow she cannot land/get on the same level as you)


I could go on, but this will probably just be forgotten anyway.

Discuss away!

 

[ShroudedOne]

Jigglypuffs back air spacing is one of the most overrated things in the game and requires immense amounts of skills to use at a high level

Can you elaborate on this a bit more? Her bair is a very, very good move, and comes out quickly. I'm not sure I understand why it's overrated (though the move itself does have a bit of cooldown). I'm just looking for you to explain this more, I guess.

Jigglypuff loses to:
Fox (big)
Falco
Marth
IC's
YL
CF
Yoshi (not kidding)

Even Puffs will tell you that she beats CF (the last time I read how they felt on the MU, at least), but I've been hearing from some people that it's even? What's your reasoning for this?

Things ppl need to do against her:

-Option select. This is something ppl suck soooo bad at. You can easily option select so that her "tomahawks" (her only real option against shields) becomes worthless. With this you can simply run into her spacing and force her to forfeit space to safely space on your shield

Can you give an example of some option selects we can use to invalidate her tomahawks? I feel like I know what you mean, but just one example would be nice.

If you wouldn't mind explaining your thoughts a little more, anyways. Thanks in advance.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

For the option select, basically you can buffer an action so that if puff attacks, you shield it, but if she tomahawks you roll/dodge during the window she would be attacking

 

[ShroudedOne]

That sounds....beyond broken....Poor Puff...

 

[leffen]

Im not gonna hand feed you all with my own technology.

but a basic **** option select is to just grab. If puff bairs, you'll still be in shield (input wavedash/jump/whatever too so you chase puff). If she emptys, you'll grab her landing lag.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Might as well just option select usmash instead

 

[leffen]

Might as well just option select usmash instead

Usmash is good too, but a slight mistiming will lead to you buffering a jump oos which gets *****. Usmash can also be empty->shielded pretty easy.

Also, I was using Peach vs Puff stuff since Shroudedone asked (and because armada constantly gets ***** by emptys over and over and over again vs hbox)

 

[Zoler]

Just wanna say I agree with leffen, nothing to add tho =D

I've been thinking running up shield ***** puff so hard but I didn't think of that "option select" lol

 

[Bones0]

Yeah, just to add to what Leffen said, you can almost always just roll away from Jiggs and not get punished. She's too slow unless she's right on top of you and hard reads it vis-a-vis Mango vs. Armada in that epic clip.

 

[Prince_Abu]

leffen you bring up some good points about jigglypuff but i don't think puff is as bad as you think

puff loses only to YL fox falco in my opinion

 

[KirbyKaze]

The way Jigglypuff's up tilt "beats" shields is by poking feet because it starts as a tiny dot near the bottom of her foot. If you notice Puff is grounded, with most characters, you can just angle shield down (and possibly with a slight lean to whatever side she's on) and then aside from grab (which would work regardless of how you shielded) her ground game doesn't have a 'high' move that can poke heads because Puff is short. Anything involving jump you just let go of the stick and you're fine (unless you've already lost shield or she goes for dair poke, but those are complicated things to deal with and the dair poke is a fairly underused strategy anyway).

I prefer this to Leffen's lightshield, because up tilt is shield grabbable if they're in front. And if you procure a shield grab on Puff with a variety of characters, you get a big reward (those two step combos + positional advantage packages are hard for her to come back from immediately, so you can milk some extra hits a lot of the time or set up your favourite stage positioning - which is also conducive to extra hits).

Peach is still horrible vs Puff. Like, absurdly so. Maybe "unwinnable" is a stretch but it's a really bad MU as far as I can tell.

Fox beats Puff straight up. Sheik loses but can win without massively outplaying the Puff so it's manageable.

I think Falco will eventually win the MU but right now it's probably even.

Marth I refuse to touch.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

What if puff shield pokes high with uair?

 

[KirbyKaze]

Then she's jumped and if you read my post you'd know her jumping is your cue to release the stick so your shield covers your body more uniformly again.

If you're Marth or Falco you have to accept sometimes moves will poke your heads (or angle up, or light shield).

 

[Ripple]

what should I do when I don't have a shield?

 

[KirbyKaze]

Is Roy's shield really that bad? I don't remember it being absurdly terrible. Just below average...

I might just not be remembering him correctly though. I haven't played against or as Roy in a long time.

 

[Ripple]

second worst in the game I believe. normal shield doesn't cover his head and shoulders and his feet aren't covered either. his light shield barely covers all of him like G&W. even DK's light shield is better than his

at least he can PS.

 

[leffen]

Utilt stuff

so true, thought about using it before but started Lightshielding because Armada told me thats what you should do (I did what everyone else always do... thought that the top players would've thought of everything >_>)


Atm I still think Peach loses to Puff. Armada doesn't use all of peach's potential yet though and he is just straight up awful against puff with every character (relative to his normal skill ofc)

I think doing stuff like dj landing after shielding bairs, option selecting the tomahawks, jc ac fair for movement and platform camping (peach is way faster vertically for once LOL)

There is only one peach that really complains about the matchup and there is no "recent" footage of it (last was apex2010... 2 years ago)


@Ripple. You're wrong. Roy's shield has the great property of being heavily disjointed (100% powershield consistency is easy) as long as you use the right animations. He can also angle his shield much better than the other bad shielders (fox/falco, DK, Bowser, Pika)

Roy's/Marth's isn't worse than most, it just requires more work. Tho everyone is ****ing bad at this game so I can see why you got that impression

 

[Ripple]

it covers less area than marth's. just because he can angle it better than some doesn't mean it makes up for it. I've been playing roy for 4 years. I know how bad it is. and I know how to angle my shield.

and its only disjointed on crouch and dash. and roy's CC is trash

 

[leffen]

you're a bad ****ing player

your anecdotal evidence means nothing

Im not saying that it makes up for it, but its an advantage when you compare his shield to someone like DK, Mewtwo, Pika where it barely helps at all if you angle it.

 

[Armada]

I still think lightshield actually is good against Puff. It is "safe" and Puff can't do much from it. Ofc I told you what I thought was best but I don't think chars like fox/falco can use lightshield exactly the same way as Peach.

Peach has a better projectile to use when she go from shield for example.

And never expect anyone to know everything
Ofc I try to find new stuff and think about situations but no one will never have all the answers for evertyhing in this game and that is a good thing.

And ofc Im not playing this game on the fullest potentical. I think I have much more to learn in this game even if I have spend around 1 year with playtime for this game

DJ landing after shield: How do you exactly mean and do you have any example of it (guess it can be hard cause the MU is pretty much never played).

Option select: Yeah that sounds good and I will try it out.

Plattform camping: Yeah I have thought about cancel my moves with help from a plattform and it is something that possibly will be in my game in the future. I don't think that's the way to play the MU against Puff though because the more I think about fighting puff in the air it workes worse. Peach is a bit to slow with her moves (even if this helps the first move still need to come out).

Yeah I know I complain about the MU but that is just beacause I don't see the MU work for Peach at the highest level of playing.

Yeah Im much worse against Puff and that is one of the 100 reasons I don't like her or don't play Peach against her. I think my Y link does a better job against her then most other chars though XD

Thanks for all the advices though.

 

[leffen]

I'll tell you in holland Armada

 

[KirbyKaze]

I dislike light shielding vs Puff because the main boon of fighting vs Puff's wall of nonsense (assuming she's pressuring, which I'm guessing she is because there's no reason to shield otherwise) is that the gaps between her hits give you a chance to action out safely (pretty much always - you may not get a direct counterattack, but you can always jump, WD, etc. between bairs and such). Lightshield's increased stun time reduces your ability to do this. I also think there's a chance it opens up opportunities for bullcrap frame traps because lightshielding often does that with specific links but... I don't know what they are with Puff specifically.



edit:

Okay, so Roy's shield sucks and he can't do something the characters with good shields can do (as automatically). Oh well. Life goes on. Roy's not exactly a huge relevant point of contention for strategy anyway since nobody uses him, he sucks, etc.

Atm I still think Peach loses to Puff. Armada doesn't use all of peach's potential yet though and he is just straight up awful against puff with every character (relative to his normal skill ofc)

I think doing stuff like dj landing after shielding bairs, option selecting the tomahawks, jc ac fair for movement and platform camping (peach is way faster vertically for once LOL)

There is only one peach that really complains about the matchup and there is no "recent" footage of it (last was apex2010... 2 years ago)

Okay. I'm gonna ignore the first bit on character johns.

DJL has potential, yes. If Peach ever develops a better platform game this will be how she's gonna do it (plus shield drop > bair). And yeah, if you can do it well (which isn't terribly hard - just slide X > Y or vice versa) then it's much faster than WD down OOS. So, yay. Minor speed buff to Peach's OOS game. But I don't think she can still punish anything after DJLing because of her slow dash. Maybe I'm underestimating it? But I don't see how there could be enough time for it. If Puff does a really aggressive play then perhaps. I think DJL OOS > down smash or something might have some interested applications vs Puffs that crouch when Peach is shielding (it's not bad, actually; crouch beats shield grab, SH & FJ nair OOS, turnips fly over... it only really loses to float nair OOS and that can be punished with a predict - it's not hard to cover that option either because it's the only real threatening counterattack in that instance). I think it covers some weaknesses, but I don't think it addresses anything major. Maybe I'm overlooking something though.

Regarding option-selecting the tomahawks... I haven't read the post on how it works. If we're talking about different things, chalk it up to laziness. Uhh, I think option-selecting the tomahawks with moves is also pretty good (I've grabbed my share of Puffs out of the air) but Puff having more grab range than Peach still gives her the advantage her, IMO. She doesn't have to commit as much... and I feel that Puff's aerial mobility gives her too much ability to play baiting games and... Puff potentially gets a massive reward for getting something correct. Peach? 10-14%. I do think this kind of thing improves her game vs empty jump but... again, I don't think this addresses what really hurts Peach in the MU.

I'm not sure how Peach has to be developed to win this one (or have a good shot) but I think it'll revolve mostly around getting good angles to attack Puff from. I think DJL onto platform is fast and opens up some interesting ways of doing the turnip approach.

However, in a different direction, I think DoH is onto something (or at least has an interesting and logical angle) with his suggestion to use the ground more. But I don't agree with some of his strategic stuff (I think f-smash's leanback should essentially be irrelevant vs a character who can aim at your face with such ease [stupid godlike aerial mobility & low gravity] since Peach only really leans her torso back a significant amount AFAIK). But then again, I'm not the Peach main. So maybe I'm missing something about the move. I think, hilariously, this is an instance where swinging down > up works against Peach because it adds "startup" to the move.

I wish Dair actually like, worked against Puff. Once you've gotten "in" on Puff with Peach, it occupies a potentially really annoying space for Puff and you can troll people that don't know how to fight it (and procure 2-step combos). But it's so DIable (and I'm pretty sure you can Rest Peach out of it with some kind of SDI wizardry) that it doesn't work vs people that fight it routinely at all. Which demotes it to "gimmick". Lame.

:/

 

[Bones0]

Why would you ever shield as Roy? Just use down-B.

 

[Ripple]

because noody wants a frame 8 shield?

 

[KirbyKaze]

I thought Roy's counter was frame 11.

The more you know.

 

[Bones0]

Does anyone know how many extra frames of stun a full light shield has (not a Z-shield)? Also, does light shielding halfway have half the increase in stun?

Pretty sure I asked this before somewhere and never got an answer.