Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List

[RaphaelRobo]

Thanks, I got the code. It's pretty cool to be able to see the hitboxes ingame, although gifs are cool too.

 

[Varist]

Yep and its also debatable that fox slightly beats falco. Its not debatable that marth beats fox, however its debatable that samus, peach and puff all beat falco.

hi i usually disagree with sveet but it seems a lot of people misinterpreted this post and got very upset that they were unable to understand and took their frustrations out on sveet.

I agree that it is not at all debatable that marth beats fox. everyone would agree that the matchup is so even that to say, "no marth beats fox. he beats him ok" is so dumb that it can't be debated. because it's simply wrong.

it's the same principle behind "my mother is ugly." it's not debatable at all, because she's clearly ****ing beautiful. and anyone with eyes would know that. no one is going to debate over my mom's uglyness because she possesses none of it. hence not debatable.

but then sveet went and debated over how fox beats marth and ****ed up his scapegoat. ****ing sveet why are you so dumb.

 

[ShroudedOne]

I think that Marth beats Fox. His lack of actual range is a fairly big problem, imo.

But...Varist, I don't understand any of what you just posted...

 

[mesa23]

varist i somehow read your entire post

i didn't understand it, but because of the post and your sig i'm considering voting for you in the upcoming 2012 united states presidential election thing.

 

[Varist]

go register as a republican so you can write me in

 

[Krynxe]

I'll be the 100th person to say

Peach needs a tier adjustment above marth and quite possibly sheik.

Sources: Armada

 

[Varist]

not shiek, just marth. imo. not going to explain why. it's just something you feel in your heart.

 

[Krynxe]

Lol. I honestly think sheik lost a lot of her ability to play at top level due to how much every other character around her evolved. KK was definitely doing great, as were other sheiks like teczer0. Idk, it's hard to determine it when you have one fantastic Peach player, one fantastic puff players, etc.

 

[-ShadowPhoenix-]

Peach is fine where she is...

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I think if m2k actually finished playing the tournament you wouldn't be saying that. I've brought up the argument about peach being in the same tier as sheik, and possibly better than marth, however I don't see any factual reasons for peach being better than sheik. Sheik has too good of spacing, edge guarding, guaranteed combos, approach, projectile, etc that you can't really say peach is better. Peach has a handful of holes, most notably her lack of speed and her inability to attack the top platform.

 

[Krynxe]

Sheik is great, but I'd say Peach is about on par with her and probbaly above Marth. Though sheik is great at mid level play and vs all low tiers, she gets countered pretty easily by other top tiers. (Apparently, this includes ICs.)

Because the tier list is decided based on voting from top level players, all I'm saying is that I wouldn't be surprised to see peach go up a bit from looking at Armada's consistency and the performance of other top peach players.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Oh ok then. You're probably right.

 

[Merkuri]

I'll be the 100th person to say

Peach needs a tier adjustment above marth and quite possibly sheik.

Sources: Armada

I'd say Peach is better than Marth, but she isn't ready to overtake Shiek yet. At least not until other Peaches start getting technical like Armada.

 

[Blistering Speed]

I'll be the 100th person to say

Young Link needs a tier adjustment above marth and quite possibly sheik.

Sources: Armada

 

[Varist]

i would stand behind that statement

 

[-ShadowPhoenix-]

I'll be the 100th person to say

Young Link needs a tier adjustment above marth and quite possibly sheik.

Sources: Armada

I think Ylink should be third since he obviously ***** puff and therefore is better than anyone below her.

 

[Krynxe]

We need to put peach and young link together on the tier list on the number one spot. Second is puff, next is a variable that is equal to whatever character mango last played.

 

[-ACE-]

Peach is still not as good as marth imo. I'm not against her being higher on the tier list necessarily, but I think marth has more potential. Armada has just done so much to expand peach's metagame... I don't think marth has had equal representation in recent years.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Hmmm that may be true ace, but the tier list isn't a potential list. Its a list representative of the strategies and tactics that have been discovered and used in the current metagame. Currently Marth has been shown to have a whole bunch of flaws while at the same time Armada and other peach players have shown ways to overcome many of peach's supposed flaws. Whether or not those showings are enough to change their positions on the tier list is another matter.

 

[Archangel]

Peach is still not as good as marth imo. I'm not against her being higher on the tier list necessarily, but I think marth has more potential. Armada has just done so much to expand peach's metagame... I don't think marth has had equal representation in recent years.

Marth had that representation for years. Everyone else is just catching up or passing him and there isn't much farther he can go.

 

[-ACE-]

I'm fully aware of what the tier list represents, I'm not saying marth should or shouldn't be ranked higher. He is a better character imho though, and that was essentially all I was saying. And spam arrows that is incorrect. Marth has had lots of representation but it wasn't equal. I don't think any marth main has optimized marth's metagame to the extent that armada has with peach. There is still room for improvement in his metagame, believe it. Sometimes I wish pp was a marth main. Btw spam you're the closest smasher to me when I'm working in Delaware. You blew me off last year seeing you"aren't active enough". All the more reason to play! Plus you're pretty active on the boards lol

 

[Archangel]

I'm fully aware of what the tier list represents, I'm not saying marth should or shouldn't be ranked higher. He is a better character imho though, and that was essentially all I was saying. And spam arrows that is incorrect. Marth has had lots of representation but it wasn't equal. I don't think any marth main has optimized marth's metagame to the extent that armada has with peach. There is still room for improvement in his metagame, believe it. Sometimes I wish pp was a marth main. Btw spam you're the closest smasher to me when I'm working in Delaware. You blew me off last year seeing you"aren't active enough". All the more reason to play! Plus you're pretty active on the boards lol

I blew you off last year? Really? I don't remember that at all. Perhaps it is possible though I did. inbox me I'll explain.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Ace, Marth had tons of representation for years. He was one of the most represented characters and still has as much rep as peach, and probably more. M2K did to marth what armada did to peach.

 

[Doc King]

Is there gonna be a new tier list and a new matchup chart soon?

 

[-ShadowPhoenix-]

Doc King no offense but you should just stay in brawl discussion

 

[Mew2King]

im actually thinking that peach is better than marth too but definitely not against fox. Marth fox is even (fox wins if he is perfect for sure, but people make mistakes and marth punishes them very hard) and fox definitely beats peach because he doesn't have to approach and makes peach struggle. I feel like peach has a better MU than marth does against falco/sheik though. It's really hard to say, but I think it has a lot to do with the fact that armada is almost perfect and I am super rusty with marth as well. Both of them are factors but I still think marth is a tiny bit overrated by most people. I do not think peach is better than sheik

 

[-ShadowPhoenix-]

I do not think peach is better than sheik

why dont you use sheik vs peach?

 

[Mew2King]

idk, but I do know that someone stole my silver controller on day 2 at apex and I've been super sad ever since =/ On either the front or back (I forget which) it even had my name on it so it should not be hard to find... maybe someone stole it. If someone has it, please send me a message ;_;

 

[-ShadowPhoenix-]

.............lol okay that had nothing to do with my question

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

M2k pretty much summing up my views. Sorry to hear about your controller man. Next time ur in chicago ask me about a controller. I play a technical fox and I have a controller you might want.

 

[-ACE-]

Yeah I bet if m2k was solely a marth main and never played brawl all this time and was still ****** this peach better than marth suggestion would rarely arise.

 

[Archangel]

If M2K was a Marth Main only he would have some very hard sets against good Sheiks and mid-low tier hero's. Sheik Counters Mid-low tier hero especially in the NTSC version with the Dthrow-****. Marth is still better Than mid tiers and below in general but he's got some openings that are trollable.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Sheik Marth isn't bad because Cactuar showed me why. Sheik still wins at least 6-4, whatever that means. But my god Marth can be annoying. Marths are stepping it up in that one, I hear, so that's good. Annoying, but good. Took you guys long enough.

Fox's nair is very versatile. I had no idea. Watch my feet.

APEX 2012 does not change my opinion of Puff's character potential or anything with great severity but I've realized that she's actually twice as annoying as I thought, and significantly faster too. This doesn't really mean anything immediately in the grand scheme of things, but it's kind of neat. Also, her combos are very functional even in the absence of Rest as an option.

Sheik can beat Puff, but it's very difficult and Sheik is definitely at disadvantage. How much I'm not sure, but I've never really been sure about that one. I think Sheik is probably a better character than Puff, but again I can't really articulate why.

I think Marth is limited by not having a projectile. His ability to control zones is always limited to what he can swing at with his sword, whereas other characters can designate dead zones with a projectile and then do supplementary stuff to control more areas. I don't think this is really anything to worry about all things considered, but it's kind of a neat thing. I do think he's still top tier.

Peach is incredibly good and her punishment is absolutely absurd. The fact that she has no visible way of beating a Puff at top level is kind of problematic though, so I don't think she's top tier. She absolutely requires a secondary to be played because of Hungrybox's style's existence. That MU requires too many tricks and gimmicks in order to land hits that can accomplish things.

Falcon needs to take risks or he sucks.

I think Doc is simultaneously overrated and underrated. His chain grabs are good, and his ability to control space with pills is surprisingly good. He has tons of gimping potential and a lot of goofy mechanics with the cape and other stuff that gives him a lot of untapped potential (or maybe these options aren't being used? I dunno). I think he has some range drawbacks, but his mobility is surprisingly decent. Fox is really brutal on him, though. I understand Shroomed is good at the MU, but like, Fox gives Doc hell.

I still have no idea how good Ice Climbers are, but I think they're probably better than Doc.

Falco is really annoying but thank god you can death-touch him off a knockdown with a bunch of characters. Falco actually has a lot of vulnerabilities in combat situations. Beating him requires you remove his combat control (ie. laser frame advantage nonsense) and engage him on equal terms (which aren't really equal most of the time because he's slower when the opponent isn't locked down). Or you can shine oos when he attacks you with Fox; also a legitimate option. Requires them to attack you poorly, but that doesn't seem to be a problem most of the time.

 

[Warhawk]

Peach is incredibly good and her punishment is absolutely absurd. The fact that she has no way of beating Puff at top level is kind of problematic though, so I don't think she's top tier.

DoH thinks if played right Peach can beat Puff.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

How would that right way be? I mean, Armada destroys fox and falcon players which are supposed to be peach's worst match-ups, but when it comes time to play a puff he simply chooses to play another character. Last time Armada played Peach vs Hbox's Puff it was somewhat domination.

 

[ShroudedOne]

KirbyKaze, can you explain in greater detail why Peach can't beat Puff at top level? As far as I can tell, Peach seems to have the hardest time among the top seven with bair, but people tell me that I should just turnip more (29 frame pulls, though).

EDIT: Like john says, DoH, if you read this, can you post your thoughts as well? Cause this is probably her Achilles' heel.

EDIT: And you too, Armada.

 

[john!]

DoH thinks if played right Peach can beat Puff.

he needs to post about this, there is a really gay puff player in wisconsin that i seem to barely lose to every time

 

[Zoler]

How would that right way be? I mean, Armada destroys fox and falcon players which are supposed to be peach's worst match-ups, but when it comes time to play a puff he simply chooses to play another character. Last time Armada played Peach vs Hbox's Puff it was somewhat domination.

It's extremely obvious that puff is peachs hardest matchup.

 

[Warhawk]

he needs to post about this, there is a really gay puff player in wisconsin that i seem to barely lose to every time

I don't know what his thoughts are, but I saw him claim recently that when played right that it was 50/50. I don't know about 50/50 but I think Peach can win it but it'd be really long and boring.

Edit: Yea ShroudedOne, when DoH posted that Armada about had a fit. I know Armada thinks its really bad because he says Puff edgeguards, combos, and spaces better than peach in the matchup.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

i think peach is annoying, and honestly i have never gotten to play a really good jiggs but as a peach i never felt it was un-winnable. To me playing the MU is stressful and is about as fun as getting teeth pulled but i think its winnable. (of course as i said i never played against a top level jiggs before so i might just be wrong)

edit: also is there a thread for apex shoutouts?