Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List

[Jim Morrison]

Fox dominates tournaments more than Falco. You've got Lovage, Silent Wolf, Unknown, Jman, Mango as prominent Foxes that perform very well at a national level. As Falco there's Peepee, Mango (shared with Fox) and uhhh...?

 

[-ACE-]

Mango plays more falco when he's not playing vs armada/hbox. I think in general though he ***** almost as hard with falco with less effort. Sion, stric9, chops, merc, blunted object, bam, zhu (singles), peepee, cyrain (singles). I'm sure I'm leaving some out. So many people play both.

 

[KirbyKaze]

The tier list is clearly based off individuals voting on stuff based on their subjective view of what the tier list should be, and does not follow a consistent mode of evaluation. Despite whatever the OP states. I thought this was common knowledge by now?

 

[-ACE-]

It's common knowledge, I just have always disagreed with it lol

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

While the CRL is well out of date at this point, Its purpose was to rate characters by their tournament performances. On this list fox had significantly more points than falco or puff. This is because fox pretty much wins or, at worst, places top 3 in every tournament.

 

[Stevo]

Name a top tier in super smash bros melee




Survey says!

DING

Correct!

Fox was the top answer

 

[Merkuri]

While the CRL is well out of date at this point, Its purpose was to rate characters by their tournament performances. On this list fox had significantly more points than falco or puff. This is because fox pretty much wins or, at worst, places top 3 in every tournament.

I believe that list also showed that Fox performed best at weaker levels, and his win ratio decreased along with tourney size. Moreover the points Fox received on that list was inflated because many people used him as a secondary(sometimes only for a single tourney) and he still got the points for it.

Looking at weighted match ups I think it becomes clear that Falco is the better character. When you consider that in the two most important matchups in the game: ''vs fox'' and ''vs falco'', falco performs better in both cases.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Actually if you were to look at weighted match-ups, fox is still better. Falco has even match-ups with puff and peach while fox has very favorable match-ups with them. Fox probably also has the best match-up against falco, which is also fox's worst match-up.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Even in PAL, Fox has the weighted MU advantage.

 

[Merkuri]

Actually if you were to look at weighted match-ups, fox is still better. Falco has even match-ups with puff and peach while fox has very favorable match-ups with them. Fox probably also has the best match-up against falco, which is also fox's worst match-up.

No....If we're looking at weighted matchups what you'll find is that Fox does have better matchups against Puff and Peach, while on the other Hand Falco has better matchups against Marth, Fox and Falco.

You said that Fox has the best matchup against Falco which is wrong, Fox loses that Matchup, so other characters would have the best match up against Falco, most notably falco himself(my point)

To reiterate, the two most important matchups in the game, are vs Falco and Vs Fox. In both cases Falco does better, because he goes even with himself and he beats Fox. On the other hand Fox loses to Falco and goes even with himself and therefore Falco has the advantage.

 

[Warhawk]

The head to head matchup alone should not indicate whether one character is better than another. Even if you are trying to throw out character matchups that should be basically negligible to the discussion of which character is better, the top 8 should at least still be included. Fox is better against Puff, Peach, ICs, and Sheik (arguable) and Falco is better against Falcon, Marth (arguable), Fox (arguable), and Falco (arguable). Their fairly close to even and when you consider that alot of the matchups you listed as better for Falco are quite debatable (a lot of people would say Fox vs Falco is 50/50 or close enough to it to be neglibile and a lot of people would say that Fox and Falco are both 50/50 with Marth and that the difference between them is negligible) you could even see how Fox could be better.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

If you think that falco vs fox is worse than relatively even, there really no point trying to discuss things with you. Fox's worst match-up is even. Falco's worst match-ups (PLURALLL) are debatably even.

Heres a match-up chart for you to study: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=257235

btw its already weighted, and falco is third. Read how the math works and come back to the discussion when you're informed.

 

[Blistering Speed]

If you think that falco vs fox is worse than relatively even, there really no point trying to discuss things with you. Fox's worst match-up is even. Falco's worst match-ups (PLURALLL) are debatably even.

I promised myself I wouldn't respond to you after your last debacle of an argument, but please, indulge me here. What makes Falco's even match-ups debatable, but Fox's not? Your proximity bias doesn't count as a reason.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

de·bat·a·ble (d-bt-bl)
adj.
1. Being such that formal argument or discussion is possible.
2. Open to dispute; questionable.

 

[Blistering Speed]

I know what debatable means.

 

[john!]

^ lol i saw that!

anyway, it is "debatable" that falco slightly beats fox.

 

[Blistering Speed]

^ lol i saw that!

anyway, it is "debatable" that falco slightly beats fox.

I'm desperately trying to be civil, but it's difficult around sveet.

 

[john!]

I'm desperately trying to be civil, but it's difficult around sveet.

it's not a matter of civility IMO, it's a matter of two people having fundamentally different opinions about the nature of the metagame (and a matter of not providing reasoning for one's opinions, which everyone is guilty of)

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Yep and its also debatable that fox slightly beats falco. Its not debatable that marth beats fox, however its debatable that samus, peach and puff all beat falco.

 

[Blistering Speed]

Strong post, John, but there is no defending this.

Yep and its also debatable that fox slightly beats falco. Its not debatable that marth beats fox, however its debatable that samus, peach and puff all beat falco.

YES, IT IS. How ****ing dense are you? What makes Samus beating Falco debatable, but Marth beating Fox not?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

How is marth vs fox debatably in marth's favor? I want to hear this argument.

as for falco vs samus, HugS has made his stance on the match-up quite clear

 

[Blistering Speed]

How is marth vs fox debatably in marth's favor? I want to hear this argument.

You have entirely missed the point. Re-read the series of posts leading up to this.

as for falco vs samus, HugS has made his stance on the match-up quite clear

Again, entirely missing the point. Sorry, I forgot HugS was omniscient.

Not to mention we argued this before, and you copped out then too.

I'm done here. There's no point discussing it with you, you stubbornly hold on to your own preconcieved notions and/or completely misinterpret points so you can pretend to provide rebuttals.

 

[Winston]

Marth's punish game on Fox is very strong. Though Fox also has consistent combos on him, most of the really high-reward stuff Fox can do can be avoided in some way (SDI on uairs, DI down + away on nair combos, etc.), and Marth is much better at gimping Fox than vice versa. Fox also has trouble hitconfirming his aerial approaches into high reward punishes at low percent, since drill doesn't combo properly if they jump and has lower range, and nair forces you to decide whether you want to beat CCing (with late nair -> shine) or non CCing (with nair -> utilt/grab). On the other hand, most of Marth's first hits will be from late tipper fair, DD grab, or dtilt/nair knockdown into techchase, which lead into grab more cleanly. Fox's much shorter techroll/getup roll makes Marth knocking him down with random his and then techchasing much more effective than vice versa.

His dashdance game matches up well vs. Fox's approaches. In the neutral dashdancing position, their options are comparable, but Marth usually has the higher reward for winning the rps, because of his grab being better usually than an aerial from Fox. Marth's ability to overshoot approaches is debatably better because of the low-commitment dtilt poke, and the extremely high reward low percent wd forward tipper fsmash. His main counter to overshot approaches (dd back pivot grab) is also debatably better because his grab range is so big. Fox has to intercept in order to beat an overshot approach, which requires a harder read, or run really far back, surrendering stage position.

Marth's aerial zoning game is weird in this matchup because he obviously can't wall Fox out completely, but when he short hops at the right spacing, threatening late fair, he can hold space vs. Fox while still keeping the option of empty sh wavelanding open. His sh AC nair also offers him a fast move he can throw out to beat fox's moves (obviously spacing dependent) and is fairly safe. I don't feel like I know enough about this part of the matchup to elaborate further, but suffice to say it's another set of options that Marth can use to supplement his DD game, while Fox doesn't really have something comparable. Fox's SH bair is fine for beating some Marth approaches, but it's quite limited compared to all the stuff Marth can do with aerial zoning.

One of Fox's best strengths is his ability to use platforms, but being above Marth in general is a bad position. Even shield/shai dropping don't really fix this problem because Fox's moves out of shield drop don't have good horizontal range, and Fox doesn't have good horizontal air mobility, so if Marth spaces carefully he can account for those techniques.

uhh, that's all I got for now.

Disclaimer: I typed all that nonsense to show that it's debatable. I don't actually claim to know who wins the matchup.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

You have entirely missed the point. Re-read the series of posts leading up to this.

Again, entirely missing the point. Sorry, I forgot HugS was omniscient.

Not to mention we argued this before, and you copped out then too.

I'm done here. There's no point discussing it with you, you stubbornly hold on to your own preconcieved notions and/or completely misinterpret points so you can pretend to provide rebuttals.

I see. Well good thing you're done debating, I won't have to waste my time with a response.


edit-

@Winston, thats a pretty knowledgeable write-up of the match-up. I'm not sure whether you believe it or if you are just trying to prove a point, however I can counter the majority of it.

Most of the theme of your argument is that marth's reward is much greater than fox's, but the probem is that you forget about the risk aspect. Marth has a weak spot in his offense that consists of the range between his standing fsmash and his dash canceled dtilt or dash attack. This range is prime for both punishing marth's attacks while maintaining almost perfect safety. If fox is there and marth attempts any forward moving attack (including dash attack, dash canceled anything or wavedash anything) fox can intercept it without moving. In fact, fox is nearly perfectly safe just dairing in place. At this point marth is forced to take risks simply to hit fox, which leaves fox in the position of playing safe and punishing effectively.

As for the neutral DD, unless marth is by the edge, I consider both character's grabs to be comparable in damage and fox's better for kill potential. Do you really believe that marth's dash canceled dtilt is a better overshoot than fox's speed + aerial->shine? Honestly I believe fox's is much better for many reasons (better on shield, better reward, faster, less telegraphed).

Marth is actually really exposed when he jumps. AC nair (in the neutral) is really horrible in this match-up as it doesn't hit fox when he stands on the ground. Its better in match-ups vs taller characters like ganon and falcon. If marth threatens fair, fox can challenge it and trade at worst or wait for marth to land with late fair and grab the lag. The best thing marth has in this scenario is actually to do nothing in the air, basically turning the jump into a bait. The jump itself is useless. Marth's best bet is to stay grounded and use dash dance grabs.

Also, I disagree that most of fox's damage output is much lower than marths either. Yes, some can be avoided, but take Fox's uthrow->uair for example. Even after a properly SDI'd uair, marth is still in a horrible position. Fox can utilt as marth comes down to trade or beat a fair and if marth jump he still has time to follow. Not to mention that fox can mixup uthrow->bair which with the poor DI from the SDI allows him to chain in stuff like sh bairs and utilts.



Hopefully that made sense. I've been watching the apex stream while writing that so theres a high chance its all over the place haha.

 

[Merkuri]

If you think that falco vs fox is worse than relatively even, there really no point trying to discuss things with you. Fox's worst match-up is even. Falco's worst match-ups (PLURALLL) are debatably even.

Heres a match-up chart for you to study: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=257235

btw its already weighted, and falco is third. Read how the math works and come back to the discussion when you're informed.

My mistake, i didn't realize you were still stuck in the mindset of two years ago when people thought Fox won all his matches(which wasn't even true in the metagame back then btw). I'll just say that its nearing a consensus that Falco beats Fox, even those who claim that Fox is the best in the game still admit that Falco wins the head to head.

That matchup chart is grossly outdated, and simply inaccurate. It was abandoned because the community itself accepted that the chart was inaccurate, so it was silly for you to post it.

Yep and its also debatable that fox slightly beats falco. Its not debatable that marth beats fox, however its debatable that samus, peach and puff all beat falco.

This demonstrates your utter ignorance of the game, so the last thing I'll say to you is that Fox vs Marth is often cited as the most even matchup in the game, and I think the majority of posters in this thread will agree with me that it was stupid of you to make that statement.

I suppose one final thing I say is that you shouldn't be in the melee backroom, you make the rest of them look bad.

 

[IronSquid]

I haven't checked on the tier list since about a month after this one came out, so I was wondering if somebody could tell me if this is still the most current version

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

My mistake, i didn't realize you were still stuck in the mindset of two years ago when people thought Fox won all his matches(which wasn't even true in the metagame back then btw). I'll just say that its nearing a consensus that Falco beats Fox, even those who claim that Fox is the best in the game still admit that Falco wins the head to head.

I'll take ur word for it over the best players in the world.

That matchup chart is grossly outdated, and simply inaccurate. It was abandoned because the community itself accepted that the chart was inaccurate, so it was silly for you to post it.

Its out-dated (referring to time since it was made) however its content still holds up to this day. If you have a problem with it, wait for the new chart to be made or start the project yourself. In any case, thats the most recently made accurate chart.

This demonstrates your utter ignorance of the game, so the last thing I'll say to you is that Fox vs Marth is often cited as the most even matchup in the game, and I think the majority of posters in this thread will agree with me that it was stupid of you to make that statement.

I didn't even say anything to oppose fox vs marth being even in the place you quoted.

I suppose one final thing I say is that you shouldn't be in the melee backroom, you make the rest of them look bad.

And I suppose you shouldn't be alive since you make the rest of humanity look stupid.



Are you and blistering speed just taking turns? Its pretty silly how you guys read my arguments and then read my ad hominems and focus on my insults to you. If you want to make this a flame war, im fine ignoring that, however its really funny how you can't punch a whole in the facts. All you guys are are C-Class Trolls.

 

[Warhawk]

This demonstrates your utter ignorance of the game, so the last thing I'll say to you is that Fox vs Marth is often cited as the most even matchup in the game, and I think the majority of posters in this thread will agree with me that it was stupid of you to make that statement.

That's funny, because where does he say that Fox beats Marth or that the matchup isn't even? I don't like how Sveet made a lot of his arguments but its a hell of a lot better than you simply throwing out insults as if they prove your point of view.


Also you never answered why it should be more considered that Falco wins the "most important matchups" as opposed to considering their matchups in the top 8 or 11.

 

[-ACE-]

Samus doesn't beat falco but the rest of what sveet said (concerning matchups) I agree with more or less. Fox has it better overall as far as having less iffy matchups. But I think falco beats fox head to head by a tiny bit. Close to even though. Not many foxes play that matchup safely enough imo.

 

[Winston]

Like I said, I don't know who wins this matchup. I just found it utterly absurd that you said it "wasn't debatable". If you claim the matchup is even, then I think that we must at least allow the possibility that either side wins the matchup because we don't know the game (at top human potential) perfectly. I must have missed this; when the hell did "Fox beats Marth" get decided unanimously?

So here we are, debating.

Intuitively I feel Marth has a small advantage, from playing both sides of the MU and watching videos, which is why I'm giving pro-Marth arguments.

If fox is there and marth attempts any forward moving attack (including dash attack, dash canceled anything or wavedash anything) fox can intercept it without moving. In fact, fox is nearly perfectly safe just dairing in place. At this point marth is forced to take risks simply to hit fox, which leaves fox in the position of playing safe and punishing effectively.

Marth has a grab and aerials...? Fox being safe vs. those requires him to run back, not stand/do moves in place.

Marth has to take a risk to hit Fox, but Fox has to take risks to stay in that zone, or to get into that zone in the first place.

As for the neutral DD, unless marth is by the edge, I consider both character's grabs to be comparable in damage and fox's better for kill potential.

Uthrow marth at low percent, he DIs behind you so uair doesn't combo, you full hop bair him, and then what? Often times you get straight up faired out of this after you hit him when you're still in the air. I understand positional advantage etc. but I feel like Fox has a harder time exploiting this at low percents because he doesn't have time to get directly under Marth before fair comes out.

Do you really believe that marth's dash canceled dtilt is a better overshoot than fox's speed + aerial->shine? Honestly I believe fox's is much better for many reasons (better on shield, better reward, faster, less telegraphed).

better on shield is irrelevant because with good spacing the risk is usually that you get grabbed. Also, its not like Marth is unhappy when he gets to dtilt a shield (spaced) and IASA.

Better reward is not necessarily true because of the hitconfirms problem. Fox's cleanest hitconfirm is probably just overshot grab ( or running shine, or late hit dair -> shine -> grab which is pretty much a grab with 6 extra percent or whatever), but Marth has this option too.

Obviously Marth's dtilt doesn't true combo into stuff, but it puts Marth in a good position (spaced at sword range with slight frame advantage) where it's easy to bait stuff and grab him. I'm not saying this is a great reward, but it's also lower risk. At higher percents where it forces a knockdown while pushing Fox closer to the edge it, it gets even better.
So basically I think Marth's approach with grab/dash attack is comparable to Fox's overshot approaches, but he also has the safer option of dtilt.

I don't understand why dtilt is "more telegraphed" than a Fox approach considering he can do it as soon as he leaves his DD.

Marth also has a higher reward option than anything else either of them have (wd forward tipper at low percents).

Marth is actually really exposed when he jumps. AC nair (in the neutral) is really horrible in this match-up as it doesn't hit fox when he stands on the ground.

This isn't true, unless you mean it in something other than a literal sense.

Its better in match-ups vs taller characters like ganon and falcon.

If marth threatens fair, fox can challenge it and trade at worst

??? Trade at WORST? Since when do Fox's moves trade with Marth's when spaced?

or wait for marth to land with late fair and grab the lag.

Extremely risky because of empty hop waveland back.

The best thing marth has in this scenario is actually to do nothing in the air, basically turning the jump into a bait. The jump itself is useless. Marth's best bet is to stay grounded and use dash dance grabs.

Marth's bread and butter in the MU is definitely grounded DD, but his aerials aren't useless in neutral. I feel like the value of Marth's sh options in neutral is giving him the ability to initiate an alternate mixup game whenever he wants. On paper it's just a different neutral situation, but since Marth is the one choosing when to do it he has the advantage since it helps make his regular DD less predictable, and Fox may not always be ready to respond appropriately to it if they are focused on combating the regular DD.

Also, I disagree that most of fox's damage output is much lower than marths either. Yes, some can be avoided, but take Fox's uthrow->uair for example. Even after a properly SDI'd uair, marth is still in a horrible position. Fox can utilt as marth comes down to trade or beat a fair and if marth jump he still has time to follow.

Horrible is a huge exaggeration. At low percents Marth can hit fox or get away while Fox is still in the lag of the uair because Marth isn't all that high up in the air. Platforms also assist him in getting away. Obviously being on a platform isn't an excellent position, but Fox is less good at taking advantage of this than Marth is.

As for Marth's damage output...

-Marth's grab punishes on FD are self-explanatory.
-Otherwise, Marth gets to CG or dthrow techchase until they get to a position to be thrown onto a platform, where he can cover multiple tech options with well-spaced utilts/uairs that combo into more utilts/uairs. He also has high reward mixups like waveland -> cg on the platform, tippering a techroll away, wd reverse utilt -> spike on techroll away, etc.

They both have fairly consistent damage building stuff on each other, but Fox's can sometimes be thwarted by DI/SDI, and Marth's techchasing is better at linking together punishes to take entire stocks than Fox's "air chasing" is on Marth. Marth also has super high reward mixups he can use in addition to the consistent stuff.

Not to mention that fox can mixup uthrow->bair which with the poor DI from the SDI allows him to chain in stuff like sh bairs and utilts.

Poor DI from the SDI? explain. Aren't we SDIng to the side?

 

[Beat!]

Yeah, Sveet, you can probably get a pretty decent amount of support for "Fox beats Marth", but saying that it's not debatable is just ridiculous.

 

[-ACE-]

An attempt at SDI'ing an incoming uair that turns out to be a bair results in poor DI. That's what he means by that Winston.

 

[Winston]

That's true at KO percents. he said "Not to mention that fox can mixup uthrow->bair which with the poor DI from the SDI allows him to chain in stuff like sh bairs and utilts. ", so that's at low percent, where DI away is good I think.

 

[-ACE-]

You're right.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Marth has a grab and aerials...? Fox being safe vs. those requires him to run back, not stand/do moves in place.

No. Grab, dash attack and dash canceled dtilt all lose to fox standing in place with an attack. A rising fair could hit fox, however it isn't exactly safe on hit.

Marth has to take a risk to hit Fox, but Fox has to take risks to stay in that zone, or to get into that zone in the first place.

But fox doesn't have to take many risks. Fox at the metagame is about reducing risks. How much risk is there to moving outside marth's range? Almost none. How much risk is there in remaining outside marth's range? Less risk than nair shining on a shield.

Uthrow marth at low percent, he DIs behind you so uair doesn't combo, you full hop bair him, and then what? Often times you get straight up faired out of this after you hit him when you're still in the air. I understand positional advantage etc. but I feel like Fox has a harder time exploiting this at low percents because he doesn't have time to get directly under Marth before fair comes out.

Theres a lot going on here. For one, marth being able to hit fox after the bair is 100% false. Two, marth is still at a frame disadvantage to fox after he bairs and lands since fox's bair autocancels in a fullhop. Heres a picture of fox performing a fullhop bair into utilt while marth does an immediate fair.

better on shield is irrelevant because with good spacing the risk is usually that you get grabbed. Also, its not like Marth is unhappy when he gets to dtilt a shield (spaced) and IASA.

Spacing in a fighting game is a 2 person issue. Spaced approaches and spaced pressure have a lot more chance for error, which makes it inconsistent. Having frame advantage on shield (or a shine) has more margin for error.

Better reward is not necessarily true because of the hitconfirms problem. Fox's cleanest hitconfirm is probably just overshot grab ( or running shine, or late hit dair -> shine -> grab which is pretty much a grab with 6 extra percent or whatever), but Marth has this option too.

Woah thats a lot of options fox has on the approach... surprising! But why are you ignoring the most basic: late nair. A late nair can be hit confirmed into various things (shine, utilt, more aerials) and is safe on shield and CC.

Obviously Marth's dtilt doesn't true combo into stuff, but it puts Marth in a good position (spaced at sword range with slight frame advantage) where it's easy to bait stuff and grab him. I'm not saying this is a great reward, but it's also lower risk. At higher percents where it forces a knockdown while pushing Fox closer to the edge it, it gets even better.
So basically I think Marth's approach with grab/dash attack is comparable to Fox's overshot approaches, but he also has the safer option of dtilt.

Dtilt doesn't combo into anything. I think you could have stopped there. If you are trying to say guaranteed combo + positioning is comparable to just positioning, i don't think thats right.

I don't understand why dtilt is "more telegraphed" than a Fox approach considering he can do it as soon as he leaves his DD.

Consider marth's options from a dash. Doing an aerial is out of the question. At that point his options are grab and dtilt/dash attack. Fox can shield when he sees marth exit his dash space and since grab has such a different spacing that you can react to the change in space with a dodge.

Marth also has a higher reward option than anything else either of them have (wd forward tipper at low percents).

0% shine spike???

This isn't true, unless you mean it in something other than a literal sense.

Fox can stand in place on the ground and be perfectly safe from marth's AC nair. In this gif I didn't do anything with fox. He gets touched by the first hit but that doesn't matter. In the end he had 13 frames to twiddle his thumbs before marth was able to shield. This would be extended further by the fox player holding down.

Fox can simply run around marth and shine. Marth is free if he is doing an AC nair.

??? Trade at WORST? Since when do Fox's moves trade with Marth's when spaced?

Well for one, the whole point of challenging marth is to keep him honest when he jumps. Early aerials with marth are extremely risky so simply going in before the peak of the jump is a hard punish for this type of play. If marth starts mixing in early aerials, lets just say fox doesn't have to look too hard to find something to punish.

As for the trade itself, yes fox's aerials can trade with marth's. Fox has this fantastic move called back air. It trades or beats just about any move in the game. There is a small spacing where marth's fair will out range bair, however it is impossible to land it consistently. More often than not, if both moves were to come out at the same time, there would be a trade.

Extremely risky because of empty hop waveland back.

"Extremely risky" is an exaggeration. Going into a situation where falcon can stomp->knee you is risky. Getting into a situation where marth gets a few hits is risk, but not extremely risky. Not to mention, this is simply the overshoot mixup revisited.

Marth's bread and butter in the MU is definitely grounded DD, but his aerials aren't useless in neutral. I feel like the value of Marth's sh options in neutral is giving him the ability to initiate an alternate mixup game whenever he wants. On paper it's just a different neutral situation, but since Marth is the one choosing when to do it he has the advantage since it helps make his regular DD less predictable, and Fox may not always be ready to respond appropriately to it if they are focused on combating the regular DD.

While I agree that maintaining unpredictability is important, I still don't think you understand how bad marth's jump game is against fox. Marth's aerial movement can't keep up with fox, he essentially has no chance at actually catching fox when he jumps. All marth can do is hope fox mistimes his punish and either runs into the attack or wiffs the grab (assuming marth dodged afterward). Marth has some decent aerial approach tricks against other characters, but fox is not one of them.

Horrible is a huge exaggeration. At low percents Marth can hit fox or get away while Fox is still in the lag of the uair because Marth isn't all that high up in the air. Platforms also assist him in getting away. Obviously being on a platform isn't an excellent position, but Fox is less good at taking advantage of this than Marth is.

Uair autocancels and marth is in considerable amount of lag after just the first hit of fox's uair. Fox gets to the grounds before marth is even out of lag, and fox's utilt beats marth fair since his fair starts from above.

As for Marth's damage output...

-Marth's grab punishes on FD are self-explanatory.
-Otherwise, Marth gets to CG or dthrow techchase until they get to a position to be thrown onto a platform, where he can cover multiple tech options with well-spaced utilts/uairs that combo into more utilts/uairs. He also has high reward mixups like waveland -> cg on the platform, tippering a techroll away, wd reverse utilt -> spike on techroll away, etc.

Platforms actually hinder marth's combo game on fox. The only stage marth can remotely cover every option is yoshis story. On battlefield, marth can't cover both corners of the platform with his sword.

Waveland CG straight up doesn't work. Fox will jump or dodge before marth is even up there.

Also, the utilt-spike only works on bad DIs in a certain percent range. Very situational. I'm surprised you would have mentioned it at all.

They both have fairly consistent damage building stuff on each other, but Fox's can sometimes be thwarted by DI/SDI, and Marth's techchasing is better at linking together punishes to take entire stocks than Fox's "air chasing" is on Marth. Marth also has super high reward mixups he can use in addition to the consistent stuff.

Marth's tech chasing actually has many holes. The dthrow tech chase only works at the edge, and thats if the fox player doesn't know how to slide off the stage to grab the edge. Anywhere else on the stage and marth has to guess which way fox is going. Marth also doesn't have any reliable way to reset fox if he chooses not to tech.

As for taking entire stocks, fox can literally pressure marth to death. By abusing that spacing I mentioned in my previous post, marth is unable to move forward and with his back to the edge his options run out quite quickly.

Overall in this post you underestimate fox's ability to control the stage while over valuing direct damage combos. Controlling the stage is the most valuable thing in the game. Suppose marth is falling and fox is standing on the ground. Marth has 3 options: double jump, land with an attack or land without an attack. Landing with an attack is the most simple; cover yourself as you fall. Landing without an attack is a mixup that allows you to escape if they expect an attack. Jumping is the worst option because fox is able to follow you even if he missed the first attempt, and at that point he can cover all marth's options by looking for a trade. Trading in that scenario means marth is out of a jump and if he goes off stage he could easily be dead.

Being fox in the above scenario is much better than being samus or ganon or even marth in the above situation. Those characters simply don't have the option coverage to turn the situation into a positive almost regardless of the opponent's actions. Fox does.

Poor DI from the SDI? explain. Aren't we SDIng to the side?

The proper way to SDI a uair is to DI right on the throw and SDI left (or vice versa). If you do this and the fox bairs then you are DIing in and are set up for further comboing.

 

[xianglongfa]

That part about marth's AC nair is kinda a moot point b/c that's not how marth's ever supposed to space nair against fox. Also was the AC nair FF'd? If timed tightly, AC nairs can be done very low, and I can't tell from the GIF off the top of my head if you are starting the nair as early as possible so that it can be FF'd to get both hits as low as possible. Maybe you are. Thanks for all the analyses Sveet I learned a lot

 

[RaphaelRobo]

How do you get the hitboxes to show up while playing Melee? I think it'd be useful to see Ganon's hitboxes during a game, rather than only being able to look at gifs.

 

[rhan]

Action Replay.

 

[RaphaelRobo]

What's the code? I can do it on Dolphin, or stream an AR to my cube, or use my Wii.

EDIT: I've spent a lot of time looking for a code, but haven't been able to find anything.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Raphael: there's a gamefaq guide that I got mine off of.

Xiang: that is a perfectly fast falled AC nair. It can't be done AC'd lower than that. You can do it lower but you must delay the nair until later in the jump and then l cancel.