Official Kirby Matchup Thread, now discussing: LUCAS!!!

[|RK|]

I'm willing to take a 60:40. Although we should get some MKs up in here. To my knowledge, M2K thinks its near even, but hey; he's M2K.

Your personal experience can change what a matchup really is, but we're going by paper here. I'll bring in the post from the MKs matchup guide for critique. Will edit this post.

EDIT: Allied, if mindgames play a factor in either win, the videos are irrelevant.

 

[Kewkky]

Guess I really didn't think it through when i said the "close to horrible" thing... My bad. I see DC has a structured post, but the last 2 have no statements to help prove that MK has a large advantage.

And yeah, I know about his "laser priority" attacks... The trick is to out-think him, or try predicting what he will do. Sure, prediction isn't accurate, but when you DO predict and react exactly how you desired, the matchup can really turn around and seem closer to even than heavy disadvantage, like they stated.

His game is better than ours, but ours is by no means far from his. We can punish any misspaced attack (and spaced attacks that can have its spacing resetted), and our grab game does wodnerfully against his approaches. We might not have many options for air-camping MKs, but we do have one good option: not approach. If all they do is air-camp with dairs, just wait it out. They WANT you to try and beat it, so if you try and get through it, you're falling right into their trap. Just have patience and watch what they do... You'll either get your desired opening or outsmart them sooner or later.

And his ftilt, by all means, hurts Kirby a lot. i used to have problems against it, and my MK friend, once he found this out, used to use it whenever I presented the opportunity. I managed to worm my way around it, and now I know to shield the first two hits and retreat/grab before the third if it's a slow-paced ftilt combo, or shield all 3 of them if it's a fast ftilt combo. Sure, he can mindgame a slow startup then do a quick 3rd one (or viceversa), but the thing is to not fall for his mindgames, just as much as he shouldn't fall for our mindgames.

 

[|RK|]

Never mind about the editing. Let's see what we can rule out here, and what we can agree with:

Kirby

Difficulty: 55:45

"The kirby matchup can be a little difficult, but IMO its not too hard if you know what to look out for. SH f-airs can be beaten out by a rising or a ff kirby b-air, so use it to punish missed air attack. Generally, ground approaching is usually more effective. Tilts are great for poking at kiby, and grounded shuttle loop (due to its invunerabillity frames) shuts down kirbys b-air approach. Also at maximum inhale range shuttle loop will hit as well.

Its not good to use grounded tornado as it is destroyed by powerful kirby f-smash (use only at close range or near the ground in the air), and if he uses it MT on you a f-air or d-air will shut that up fairily painlessly. Also his b-air can poke a approaching (only) tornado as well if it hits at a certiaen point close to the top.

Watch when edge guarding so you dont run into a hammer or a back air, and I would say try to land d-airs and n-airs, because f-air and u-air can knock kirby up higher making it easier for him to recover.

When he is edgeguarding you his d-air can beat out SL if it is spaced correctly and stone can as well if he predicts SL so if you can use your jumps to recover or if he chases you in the air you can get above him and tornado or drill directly back on to the stage.

If he grabs you and f-throws, DI towards the upper left corner to avoid followups or if he down throws, if you jump at the right time meta will fly up, thus avoiding an up-tilt combo.

Its not good to attack a grounded kirby from above with d-air because he can shield it and grab you if your close to the ground, or shield and roll away if your out of grab range. but if kirby is in the air then get above and d-air assault, just watch out because if you miss he can hit you with an u-air before you can attack again.

In this match try to save you d-smash if possible. It will be key to be able to KO kirby fairily early as normally he can live 10-20% more than meta can. Kirby f-smash will generally kill once you are in triple digits."

-DJ Iskascribble


"Kirby can be a really hard match up, if the kirby knows how to play it.
Let's face it Kirby has good ground game, good air game, good edgeguard very, etc.

Kirbys bair has insane priority and can go through our aerials if they time it correct, fsmash is ridiculous good and can hit through tornado.

So basically watch out for:
- Bair
- Fsmash
- Grabs

While recovering you should know that kirby can edgeguard your upB with bair and your nado with fsmash, so side b and sweetspot the edge would be the safest thing to do, but remember to switch up because they can always punish you if they know what you are doing.

iirc mks ftilt goes through kirbys bair if you time it correct (3rd hit?), we also have more range so we should be safe on the ground. If MK is in the air you should space your fairs extremely well, because good kirbys will space their bairs just as well.
Generally i would suggest playing a good ground game is safer in this matchup."

-Tero


"Kirby has a couple things going for him.
- Multiple jumps
- Decent range on bair
- Decent grab range
- Good damage output

Keeping Kirby from approaching should be the main idea. If a Kirby player wants to approach, he shouldn't be able to win. Kirby's main form of approach is dashing into a shield, which is countered very well by a dash grab. It's also rendered ineffective by tippered fairs, retreating or otherwise.

Don't let approaching work for your opponent.
Spacing fairs and dtilts is a great way to handle most match-ups. However, be aware that Kirby can actually shield-grab a dtilt if he's able to get close enough, and any of his short-hop approaches can make contact while going above your dtilt. It's a good spacing tool as always, so you should still try to use it, only not while your opponent may get into the air.

Aerial opponent
Remember shielding is safe on aerial opponents, since they cannot grab you, only air-dodge, perform aerials, or in Kirby's case, possibly stay in the air. Power-shielding the moment an attack can possibly hit you allows safe, easier, and less predictable punishment than regular shielding. If they didn't strike the moment you expected them to, you can keep moving anyway. This is very effective since you can punish an air-dodge into you with the use of a nair, one onto the ground next to you by grabbing them, or hold your position if they keep jumping. Shy Kirby players may mispace their bairs so they don't actually reach you even if you don't move, these errors in spacing are easily punished by a quick ftilt.

You can make use of the amazingly potent tool in Meta Knight's grounded Shuttle Loop for very easy hits on air-jump camping opponents. It's better to perform this if you have a platform above you, to make it very hard to punish, thanks to quick glide cancellings. Remember however, that it only does around 9% damage from the start, and it keeps getting worse. Possible punishment is not worth spamming it, as each of Kirby's most used moves do more damage than the Shuttle Loop, and it's as easy for him to punish as performing an air-dodge, one more jump to bair you out of your glide, or dair'ing into you from directly above. Shuttle Loop works best performed less often, SPECIALLY considering that you can KO with it from around 130% if you keep it fresh, and the aerial one can get weak enough not to allow any surprise aerial Shuttle Loop KO's.

To counter Kirby's potent air-jump camping game, which seems to be the best way to play Kirby, possibly in most, if not all of that character's match-ups, a Meta Knight player can keep up a good ground game, limited to mostly short-hops, baiting and taking advantage of each time the Kirby opponent touches the ground.

This is not the only option, however. One can also perform full hop fairs as an approach, and from there continue performing dairs and fairs, airjumped or not, to fight the opponent in an air-jump approach similar to his air-jump camping tactics.

Aerial Meta Knight.
Camping aerials is a good idea to avoid Kirby's options to land hits, aerial or otherwise. Kirby players will sometimes shield in the place they think you will land, to possibly punish a falling aerial by shield-grabbing you. This is easily baited by performing one extra jump right before touching the ground. If they miss a grab, you can then fall on them with a dair to safely regain your position.

Recovery.
Drill rush is your safest option. It out-prioritizes most of Kirby's moves, including all of the ones which pose a threat. I don't know about his hammer, but I haven't witnessed any Kirby player perform it on drill rush yet, and I don't think it's likely for it to land, due to its slow start-up and short range. Be careful to glide back on-stage. Your opponent's most reliable option against your glide is bair. If a Kirby opponent jumps offstage towards you, you should expect this. The opponent can also down-B, which is easy to see coming and calls for the cancelling of your glide. If your opponent tries to edge-guard in an unsafe way and is directly above you, you can perform a Shuttle Loop in hopes of it sending the opponent backwards and away from the stage, for a quick way to put the momentum of the match on your side.

Once you hang on the edge, be wary of attacking your opponent directly with an aerial as they can bair or shieldgrab. Be also wary of performing Mach Tornado in hopes of going back on-stage, as your opponent can bair the top of the move to land a safe hit on you, or perform a forward smash, which out-prioritizes the Mach Tornado. It is still a safe move, specially if performed from above the range of forward smash, or the opposing character altogether, so they can't punish it.

By the way, Mach Tornado isn't a great tool during the on-stage fight, due to Kirby's tendency to quickly pop out of it, his ability to bair you out of it (they can also shield it, as always), and the fact that the low damage output on a short MT isn't more damage than what Kirby can land on you. It's good to perform it if you feel confident that you'll trap your opponent in it during the entire move, or if you know it will hit, since it's relatively safe due to Kirby's unability to punish after popping up, since his falling speed isn't quick enough.

Edge-guarding.
You can charge a forward smash against Kirby's up-B, and release it when he's in the falling part of it. It's safe to perform this, and it works if the rising part of Kirby's up-B doesn't make contact with you. You also have the option to edge-hog the up-B, the opponent if forced to land on-stage (unless they don't, and they lose a stock), so you can easily ledge-hop a nair from there, or a fair in the unlikely case of nair not being able to reach the opponent.

Besides that, your opponent will over-B to head towards the stage without losing altitude, and air-dodge or perform aerials on your edge-guard attempts. You can bait air-dodges and land aerials afterwards, it's also good to try performing off-stage fairs and dairs, air-jumped or fast-falled. Fast-falling nairs from above may also work, which isn't as effective against Kirby as it is against other characters due to his multiple jumps, but it's still easy to land and an option you can consider. You can mix a Shuttle Loop in now and then, in hopes it connects, making recovery a chore for your opponent.

KO-ing.
I've found keeping dsmash fresh to KO at above 110%, not to be as effective in the Kirby match-up as in others. It seems that dsmash is harder to land on Kirby than on other characters, due to your opponent being mostly either in the air, or on the ground shielding. It's still good to keep it as an option, but if you like to perform dsmash even if it doesn't KO, go ahead (I like ftilt better, because of the better range, less punishability, and similar damage output though).

The absolute safest KO move in most matchups is a grounded Shuttle Loop. It's effective from around 130% on light/mid-weight characters, and Kirby is fortunately one of them. If it's fresh, you know what to do. If they DI and it doesn't KO, there's no problem. If they don't DI next time you hit, it's still a KO. A move keeps getting weaker each time you land it, but landing one move repeatedly will result in similar knock-back, due to the opponent having more damage each time.

Remember that trying to perform long edgeguards can allow you to land extra damage to make it easy to KO. If you can land a forward smash onto Kirby's falling animation during his up-B at high percentages, more power to you. Another option is nair at very high %, specially if fresh.

Kirby's Swallow.
...Is useless. Seriously, when Kirby performs Mach Tornado, only one third of his hits actually have hit-stun, the rest don't. So you can air-dodge, or actually hit him, even while in hit Mach Tornado. It even has a much smaller range, fair, ftilt, up-B...anything that has more range hits him out of it (since Meta Knight's moves don't clash and hit the opponent directly), and you can make him lose the ability easily, because a lot of Meta Knight's moves have multiple hits (not that you should worry about him losing the ability or not, since it's not all that useful).

About Kirby-ciding, it's easily avoidable if you maintain proper spacing throughout the match, and its range is not so good as to catch you during your aerials or specials (except Dimensional Cape, of course)."

-TKD

 

[Asdioh]

When you bring mindgames and baiting into a matchup, you need to remember that both sides can do them and fall for them. I can bait a Bair right outside of MK's range, but he can bait me with something too, and he can do it safer and faster than me. Anything we can do, he truly can do better (except Fsmash)

The simple truth, like I already said, is that he has multiple options for every singular option we have. Everytime we try to do something, he has multiple ways to avoid or beat it. Everytime he tries to do something, we either won't beat it, or we have very few options. This is seriously how the matchup works. We have great Kirby players and MK players in here telling us that it's definitely in MK's advantage. :/

And if we're talking about experience, I've played quite a few Meta Knights offline. Not the very best, but I've beaten most of them. Regardless, I still think that it's clearly in his favor, and they were just doing it wrong.

Here are some things MK generally should not be doing in this matchup:

1. shielding
2. dodging
3. not attacking.

90% of the time, when I hit a MK player, it's because he was being too defensive, or he wasn't spamming an attack, or he was using the wrong attack (for example, upair when I am to his side and Bairing him)

Believe me :[

 

[Lovely]

Oh just wait lovely ^_^ i got videos + discussion coming up in due time

All right, you always have proof after all. ;D

 

[Allied]

I'm willing to take a 60:40. Although we should get some MKs up in here. To my knowledge, M2K thinks its near even, but hey; he's M2K.

Your personal experience can change what a matchup really is, but we're going by paper here. I'll bring in the post from the MKs matchup guide for critique. Will edit this post.

EDIT: Allied, if mindgames play a factor in either win, the videos are irrelevant.

the videos was to bring an idea to the situation 0_o who doesnt love a visual reference

and mindgames always takes a huge role

if this game was left to no mindgames then i wouldnt know what to even say

we can't just go by paper or else each matchup is just gonna be like "well since metaknight has higher priority and mindgames dont apply its gonna be 80:20 metaknight due to the fact fair beats his fair right?"

i mean i quite dont understand what i think your saying but i hope your not saying

personal experience against top metaknights and different metaknight playstyles and such dont matter

i wouldn't know how to contribute then?

 

[Allied]

When you bring mindgames and baiting into a matchup, you need to remember that both sides can do them and fall for them. I can bait a Bair right outside of MK's range, but he can bait me with something too, and he can do it safer and faster than me. Anything we can do, he truly can do better (except Fsmash)

The simple truth, like I already said, is that he has multiple options for every singular option we have. Everytime we try to do something, he has multiple ways to avoid or beat it. Everytime he tries to do something, we either won't beat it, or we have very few options. This is seriously how the matchup works. We have great Kirby players and MK players in here telling us that it's definitely in MK's advantage. :/

And if we're talking about experience, I've played quite a few Meta Knights offline. Not the very best, but I've beaten most of them. Regardless, I still think that it's clearly in his favor, and they were just doing it wrong.

Here are some things MK generally should not be doing in this matchup:

1. shielding
2. dodging
3. not attacking.

90% of the time, when I hit a MK player, it's because he was being too defensive, or he wasn't spamming an attack, or he was using the wrong attack (for example, upair when I am to his side and Bairing him)

Believe me :[

hmm idk how to reply to this 0_o

All right, you always have proof after all. ;D

<3

 

[|RK|]

the videos was to bring an idea to the situation 0_o

and mindgames always takes a huge role

if this game was left to no mindgames then i wouldnt know what to even say

we can't just go by paper or else each matchup is just gonna be like "well since metaknight has higher priority and mindgames dont apply its gonna be 80:20 metaknight due to the fact fair beats his fair right?"

i mean i quite dont understand what i think your saying but i hope your not saying

personal experience against top metaknights and different metaknight playstyles and such dont matter

because it does 0_o

Yeah, but mindgames to use certain moves are specifically player skill. That's like talking about mindgaming a Falcon Punch to beat MK. And that would derive directly from the players skill. Totally on paper. Ok, well, some things are brought out by most players, like Diddy's banana stage control, but that isn't player skill per-se, it's merely a way of playing.

 

[Asdioh]

hmm idk how to reply to this 0_o

You don't? >_>

*wastes posts*

 

[|RK|]

Ironically, while we are all talking about the same thing, I still find MK one of the easier to chase and regrab after a Dthrow. After all, they all jump, then they can either do a rising Dair or descending Dair (both of which you shield), jump again, or just land into a Dsmash. Once they do this enough (with two of the options leading into a regrab), they're out of jumps, severely limiting their options. Sure, they can also tornado, but you can pivot grab that, Fsmash it, inhale it, or even Usmash it during the startup, sideB leaves him open, and UpB doesn't really help him land at all. In the end, only his downB can make his landing unpredictable.

Yoshi's another easy one to predict his landing, but beware of his nasty Dair. That thing'll rip shields to shreds.

Generally speaking though, Dair chases usually work on most everyone and are awesome.

Stealing fromundam's post, 'cause it's about our options against MK.

 

[Allied]

Yeah, but mindgames to use certain moves are specifically player skill. That's like talking about mindgaming a Falcon Punch to beat MK. And that would derive directly from the players skill. Totally on paper. Ok, well, some things are brought out by most players, like Diddy's banana stage control, but that isn't player skill per-se, it's merely a way of playing.

ok

half of how i use kirby consists of mindgames

whatever lol
i still think its 57:43
or 60:40

 

[|RK|]

Ground game: MK has the clear advantage here. Ftilt and Dtilt beat pretty much everything we have. Our best option on the ground is to powershield his attacks and grab. His Up B from the ground beats everything ever. His Tornado loses to Fsmash, yes, but here are two problems: you can only Fsmash the Tornado if you predict it in time and you're at the perfect range, and he can Tornado so the bottom of his hitbox hits the top of your head, and then he's too high to be Fsmashed, but he can still hit you.

Can't a pivot grab take him out of his nado? Or a quick B-Air? Come on now, timing is everything here. Also, that sliding pivot grab... can't that also help? Ours may be samll, but it might just be enough. Stop making things sound too easy for the MK, Asdioh. Although I have no comment for the F-Tilt and D-Tilt thing. MK still has an advantage here, just not as large as you make it seem. Nado is overrated, really. SDI out of it, Asdioh.

Air game: MK's advantage again. His aerials are all obviously faster than ours, and have better range. We will often be trading hits perhaps if we're attacking in the same direction at the same time. The only thing we have in the air that can beat Tornado from the side is our Hammer. Obviously it's a pretty slow attack, and again we will only be hitting him out of Tornado if we see it coming in time and have perfect spacing/he's stupid enough to run right into it. His Tornado can screw up any spacing we might be doing with our regular aerials. He can also combo us much easier than we can combo him (we basically can't combo him because he has combo breakers)

What about B-Air? And the chances that an MK would use Tornado against us in the air is unlikely.

Offstage game: MK obviously wins. Dair Kirby offstage repeatedly and he dies. Easy. Shuttle Loop him if he's trying to recover above. Deadly, and difficult to avoid. Kirby can edgeguard MK, but....no he can't. If you edgeguard MK, he's doing it wrong.

You make these things sound easy when they aren't what if we happen to be above the MK in the air? And I don't think the MK's find Shuttle Looping us offstage or in the air period is safe. On top of that, what if we're Hammering on the way back? Can't we hit him then? There IS a chance. Oh, and Stone helps to mess up that timing a bit. Also, we can be too high to be hit.


Killing power: about even. Kirby's Fsmash and Hammer KO at very low percents, but they're going to be hard to land. MK can kill you offstage with Shuttle Loop at even lower percents, and that's a bit easier to land, if you're in the right (wrong) position. His Dsmash is also harder to avoid and harder to punish than our Fsmash, and it will kill at a slightly higher percent than our Fsmash, I think. His Fsmash has some startup time, but it's almost impossible to punish afterwards, and it's strong. Nair is a great killer too. It's easy to get stagespiked against MK.

Agreed here.

Sexiness: Kirby clearly wins here.

Agreed even more.

Matchup rating: 60:40 MK at least. The simple truth is that if you are beating Meta Knight, he's doing it wrong. It's not unwinnable, but on paper which is mostly what we should be discussing, we simply don't have many options, while MK has multiple counters to EVERYTHING we can do.[/COLOR]


Or maybe we're doing it right? There is a chance that the Kirby is the better player, whether the MK is doing everything he can right or not.

Will discuss more later...

 

[momochuu]

I'll post my summary of the matchup when I'm actually on a computer. >_>

 

[|RK|]

OK, my response to Asdioh has been edited. And finished.

 

[fromundaman]

God **** I hate when people say this matchup is close to even. The only time this matchup is near even is if the Meta Knight has no Kirby experience at all, some things that work in other MK matchups won't work in the Kirby matchup obviously but with some knowledge I'd still say the matchup is 35/65 (in MKs favor).

Kirbys only 2 reliable approaches in this matchup are bair and shieldgrab (lol not just this matchup, but especially this one.) On the ground MK's ftilt outranges/prioritizes everything we have, including our ftilt and dtilt, I believe it clanks with fsmash, giving him the ability to ftilt again, dsmash or shuttle loop while we are still in ending lag. If the ftilt isn't powershielded he has enough time to dsmash or shuttle loop, if it is powershielded it's still possible for him to finish the other two hits of ftilt or dsmash/SL.

In the air I do believe our bair beats his fair (though dependant on spacing) but rising dair camping is a pain. Spaced perfectly there is not much we can do about rising dairs. It out prioritizes our bair (not to mention comes out faster). The generally recommended strategy is to count their jumps and wait for them to land but like I said, for any MK with an inkling of matchup exp it's easy to react to what a Kirby is doing. If it's obvious they are staying within range to punish your landing lag then they can land with tornado. YES I know, "but fsmash beats tornado blah blah," like I said, a MK can react to a Kirby attempting to space a fsmash (which reminds me... I hope you guys still aren't doing that whole 'walk backwards then fmash forward' thing... lmao) and land farther away.

Dair camping simpified: If they are too close land with tornado, if they are farther away just land, the landing lag in minimal enough for Kirby not too be able to run up to you and punish.

Off the stage any experienced MK will follow you with dairs. Want a fun fact? If you get hit with ONE dair off the stage then you ARE REQUIRED to use final cutter to recover. A spaced dair off the stage is extremely hard to counter. If you recover high you run the risk of getting hit with a SL.

Trying to edgeguard MK? The second you take a second jump off the stage MK gets free recovery with tornado or drill rush. Recovering with SL is not as useful in this matchup so that's an easy way to tell if an MK is experienced in the matchup or not.

Videos could expain this better than words but unfortunately I don't have any recent ones. I'll try to get some asap because I do know quite a few of the best MKs in the state of Florida.

My experience:
Seibrik (#1 power ranked in FL, one of my training partners)
Red Halberd (not power ranked but probably the best MK in FL AT THIS MATCHUP..., sorry Seibrik lol)
Master Raven (not power ranked in FL but probably in the top 5 MKs)
Other assorted MKs around FL, I go to tournies all over the state.

This match up might have been 45/55 in 2008 but the little tricks and advantages we had over players with little experience is seriously fading. I hate to not have confidence in my character but MK is simply a faster Kirby with more range, knockback and recovery... aka a better version of Kirby. I'll try to get some of my MK friends in here to put in their two cents.

Verdict: 35/65 MK, not unbeatable but you **** sure better not make any mistakes.

It's weird, despite the experience vs good MKs you have, a lot of what you say is wrong. Well, not a ton, but a fair number. For example, only MK's glide attack and tornado clank with anything, hence not Ftilt.

Also, the thing about edgeguarding him: No... here's what most people should get through their head: We will not gimp MK. It just won't happen if the MK is good. That being said, we can still attempt to edgeguard, but keep in mind that you are doing it to rack up damage, and not to kill. In that sense, the best way to do it is generally to hover in the general area of the ledge and punish whatever recovery option he decides to use (and they are ALL punishable, even in the air.).

Dair camping is really not a problem for any Kirby who has a working shield button. They do a rising Dair, you powershield and follow. They do a decending Dair, you shield and grab. They land and try to Dsmash? You can grab them before the Dsmash, or grab them during the backwards swing if you PS the hit.

If you think Bair and shieldgrabs are our only options in this matchup, you are sorely mistaken.

Also, if anything else, Kirby has gotten MORE abusable tricks since 08, though not many people make use of them, since too many disregard anything situational, no matter how useful.


Also, I too have a lot of MK experience. I've played most of the better MKs in the MW (Judge, OS, Capem, etc.), and spent about 5-6 months playing Kirby vs MK daily vs DJ_Iskascribble, who, while he doesn't have a very big tourny record, Ohio players will tell you he is a good MK (In fact, good enough for OS to use him on his interviews about MK dittos in April.).

Cactuar?

======

On an unrelated note, the trick to not geting hit by a shuttle loop oos is NOT APPROACHING.

Somebody post the Chu-Isai video to prove the mean Kirby haters wrong

That one video does not prove the matchup at all. In fact, that's about as far from how the matchup should be played as possible, despite being an awesome video.

Anyways, it's definitely not lower than 60/40 Meta Knight, Lucario is more challenging than Meta Knight. :/

Agreed!




My opinion of this matchup has not much changed since last matchup discussion (despite having had my *** handed to me by OS numerous times since then), so allow me to repost what I had put up then, which itself is what I put in the MK matchup thread:

I just want to say that I have a LOT of experience in this matchup (Iska and I have probably done it over 100 times in the last week), and while pretty much everything said here is true, you guys are leaving a few things out:
-Yeah, we can shieldgrab a Dtilt if we're close, but why would we, considering a well spaced Fsmash beats it and a badly spaced one trades hits.
-A shielded Dsmash is a free grab for Kirby, so don't get predictable with it. It works best as a surprise move (usually for the KO.).
-be warry of Kirby's ground game. Our air game is better, but because of it surprise ground attacks (ftilt, DA, Dtilt) tend to occasionally hit. Don't get caught offguard because you were expecting a Bair or something.
-Copied from one of my previous posts:

Dair beats out SL as long as you position yourself so that the front of the arc doesn't touch you. If it does, then you trade hits (though you don't go flying very far), which can be useful A) offstage: It frustrates your opponent and causes them to expend more jumps. No, you aren't going to gimp MK, and that's not what I'm getting at, but it is easier to hit a recovering MK with fewer jumps than one who's not worried about falling offastage. B) On BF, Lylat, or any other stage where the Dair will spike them into a platform and you can attempt to follow up with one of your faster moves (I usually do Bair or FFed Nair>something).

-Be careful about spamming SL... a shielded SL isn't too hard to punish.
-Our grabs can wreck MK if the player doesn't know how to handle them. Yeah, we can't Gonzo you, but Dthrow chains are incredibly effective. Under 40%, Dthrow>Utilt can only be escaped by a perfectly timed jump/footstool jump thingy that sends you really ****ing high (what iskascribble was talking about). If you try to Dair after the Utilt, you will make me happy, as I will shieldgrab you and do it again. Do that twice and MK goes from 0 to 40. After that, our Dthrow still does great damage and puts you in a bad position.

Kirby's Swallow.
...Is useless. Seriously, when Kirby performs Mach Tornado, only one third of his hits actually have hit-stun, the rest don't. So you can air-dodge, or actually hit him, even while inside the Mach Tornado. It even has a much smaller range than Meta Knight's Mach Tornado. Fair, ftilt, up-B...anything that has more range hits him out of it (since Meta Knight's moves don't clash and hit the opponent directly), and you can make him lose the ability easily, because a lot of Meta Knight's moves have multiple hits (not that you should worry about him losing the ability or not, since it's not all that useful).

See, I don't understand why so many Kirby mains can't understand this... While inhale is situational, it can hit, and at worst, it's still better than a move that's going to deal 2-3% before you break out and hit me with a Dair/Fair (I don't know what percent that is, but it's definitely higher than what Kirby-nado does...). If Kirby DOES take that, I'd let him keep it; he's the one losing out...

Here's a couple more things though. It seems under 40%, there is nothing MK can do to punish Dthrow>Utilt. Yeah, it's not the best tactic, but it seems to work, especially since a MK that doesn't know better might try to FF a Dair after the Utilt, at which point they hit my shield and get another Dthrow>Utilt (Just remember to stop Utilting after the second (or 40%, whichever comes first, or you'll get Daired. After that point just shield.). Even after that point, Dair still puts MK in a bad spot, for despite what I first thought, onstage it is good to have MK above you, as his only ways to hurt you can all be shieldgrabbed (with the exception of DC, which gets punished, and Tornado, which gets Baired/Fsmashed).

I'll probably have more to say later, but that's it for now. I honestly hate discussing this matchup because of how long it takes me to type everything.

 

[Retroend]

God **** I hate when people say this matchup is close to even. The only time this matchup is near even is if the Meta Knight has no Kirby experience at all, some things that work in other MK matchups won't work in the Kirby matchup obviously but with some knowledge I'd still say the matchup is 35/65 (in MKs favor).

Kirbys only 2 reliable approaches in this matchup are bair and shieldgrab (lol not just this matchup, but especially this one.) On the ground MK's ftilt outranges/prioritizes everything we have, including our ftilt and dtilt, I believe it clanks with fsmash, giving him the ability to ftilt again, dsmash or shuttle loop while we are still in ending lag. If the ftilt isn't powershielded he has enough time to dsmash or shuttle loop, if it is powershielded it's still possible for him to finish the other two hits of ftilt or dsmash/SL.

In the air I do believe our bair beats his fair (though dependant on spacing) but rising dair camping is a pain. Spaced perfectly there is not much we can do about rising dairs. It out prioritizes our bair (not to mention comes out faster). The generally recommended strategy is to count their jumps and wait for them to land but like I said, for any MK with an inkling of matchup exp it's easy to react to what a Kirby is doing. If it's obvious they are staying within range to punish your landing lag then they can land with tornado. YES I know, "but fsmash beats tornado blah blah," like I said, a MK can react to a Kirby attempting to space a fsmash (which reminds me... I hope you guys still aren't doing that whole 'walk backwards then fmash forward' thing... lmao) and land farther away.

Dair camping simpified: If they are too close land with tornado, if they are farther away just land, the landing lag in minimal enough for Kirby not too be able to run up to you and punish.

Off the stage any experienced MK will follow you with dairs. Want a fun fact? If you get hit with ONE dair off the stage then you ARE REQUIRED to use final cutter to recover. A spaced dair off the stage is extremely hard to counter. If you recover high you run the risk of getting hit with a SL.

Trying to edgeguard MK? The second you take a second jump off the stage MK gets free recovery with tornado or drill rush. Recovering with SL is not as useful in this matchup so that's an easy way to tell if an MK is experienced in the matchup or not.

Videos could expain this better than words but unfortunately I don't have any recent ones. I'll try to get some asap because I do know quite a few of the best MKs in the state of Florida.

My experience:
Seibrik (#1 power ranked in FL, one of my training partners)
Red Halberd (not power ranked but probably the best MK in FL AT THIS MATCHUP..., sorry Seibrik lol)
Master Raven (not power ranked in FL but probably in the top 5 MKs)
Other assorted MKs around FL, I go to tournies all over the state.

This match up might have been 45/55 in 2008 but the little tricks and advantages we had over players with little experience is seriously fading. I hate to not have confidence in my character but MK is simply a faster Kirby with more range, knockback and recovery... aka a better version of Kirby. I'll try to get some of my MK friends in here to put in their two cents.

Verdict: 35/65 MK, not unbeatable but you **** sure better not make any mistakes.

you make it sound like its impossible to play carefully against this guy.

ok for starters, you don't have to apprach meta right away. many people assume that the only way to cause any damage is to approach him, although you make it sound like if you even try to approach him, you get punished regardless. one move i find useful is the final cutter. if you're at a distance, you can use it to force meta to come to you. i expect mk to block, but its forces him to do something or just camp and block (which would be really gay). also, i have yet to see anybody mentioning his neutral a. seriously, his vulcan jab has great priority. however you have to know what you're doing. we know it has ending lag and mk can dsmash when he's far enough because his range is ridiculous and because of the vulcan jab's ending lag. you have to know when to end it and shield or move away from him while letting you opponent think that you're going to do it all the way until meta is out of the jabs reach.

also, kirby players need to know when to use fsmash. instead of forward smashing, they can use the side tilt, which is quick and has little ending lag. i would only use it when i see an opening, which is tough to get with this guy.

now for mk being off the stage, you don't just go after him, knowing that he can defend himself with his glide attack or his aerials. also if you see him using tornado to come back, then just fsmash him. also, many of the metas ive faced almost always use glide to return. however, they tend to aim towards the bottom so that they can either go to the other side of the stage, or avoid edgeguarding and reach the ledge. this is where stone makes its moment. if your opponent is gliding towards the bottom, jump out and use stone at the right time. when they're gliding, they can't dodge or retaliate easily. and even when they try to cancel out of the glide, its still some lag in the canceling. so if you time it right and they get hit, they can be sent flying ( and hopefully lose a stock) or get stage spiked (depending on where they are). and if you're bold enough and are skilled at it, use the aerial hammer, but only if you see an opening. as for drill rush, use dsmash. most metas i've seen use it aim at the legde. use dsmash when you see them doing that. oddly, it hits him out of his drill rush and its useful. although you have to time it as well.

so yea, you have to time you're attacks, space them, and not freak out. meta knight having a 65-35 or 60-40 matchup against kirby is ridiculous. i still say its 55-45 in mk's favor. and i have fought some good metas such as rx-, hrnut, petey, and a few others. i say its still 55-45 in mk's favor. he's not godly you know, he's just a character who was biased by his creator (who is a dumb@ss).

i don't think you see that kirby has potential and if you use him right and know your opponent, you can overcome many disadvantages with him.

mk ***** kirby really imo too

you've got it all wrong.

Cactuar?

======

On an unrelated note, the trick to not geting hit by a shuttle loop oos is NOT APPROACHING.

Somebody post the Chu-Isai video to prove the mean Kirby haters wrong

yep, thats what they are, kirby haters.

Anything lower than 40/60 I can not see ever. If Meta Knight was such a hard match up, then why not Ice Climbers be 10/90 Ice Climbers since it's twice as hard to deal with Ice Climbers than Meta Knight. -_-;

QFT. meta is hard, but the matchup being 65-35 or even 60-40 is ludicrious. he's not god like, but many percieve him as such, which is stupid.

 

[Delta Z]

he's not god like, but many percieve him as such, which is stupid.

^This.

Using Stone on MK's glide? Never thought of that. Good idea. :bigthumbu Stone also works against a midair Mach Tornado, right?

And when you think about it, Kirby has enough air mobility to make it pretty hard for MK to gimp him, compared to most of the cast.

 

[Ladybug]

Kirby does have good air mobility, the thing you have to keep in mind is the MK range on him. That ****ed sword makes it a bit tougher.

 

[MK26]

k
new Maestro tipz

The only reasons MK doesnt destroy Kirby is that Kirby can recover (unless ur doin it wrong) and he can kill

So, by that logic, recover and kill him.

Except that doesnt take into account dsmash

****

SAKURAIIIIIIIIIIIIIII!

On a more serious note, Inui is bottom tier.

======

But really, Kirby doesnt have alot going for him except for the fact that hes got very little that MK can completely take advantage of (ex poor recovery, being a huge target). Of course, Kirby is light, but Dsmash is equally broken against all characters. Youll get destroyed if you go all-out offensive without some l33t m1ndg4m3z to back it up, so play defensively, slowly tack on damage, and go for the early kill. The key is connecting with the Fsmash.

If it weren't for the fact that Kirby has to play much harder to win, I'd be willing to say it's 50-50. But that'd be considered blasphemy.

 

[Retroend]

^This.

Using Stone on MK's glide? Never thought of that. Good idea. :bigthumbu Stone also works against a midair Mach Tornado, right?

And when you think about it, Kirby has enough air mobility to make it pretty hard for MK to gimp him, compared to most of the cast.

yea, but you have to time and not be repetitive about it. again, this is only when they are gliding down towards the bottom of the stage. and also if they are gliding down towards the stage, try to mix it up. instead of stone, use dair when you see an opening when they are gliding downwards, but be careful since its riskier. you can't take damage in stone, but you can get hit when you're down airing. mindgames.

 

[Ladybug]

Plus if you time coming out of it correctly (like after they've read you wrong and moved a little too fast) you can very quickly get a really nice hit on them before they have time to recover. But don't stay in it too long and make sure you are already c-sticking RIGHT AFTER you hit b to get out.

 

[fromundaman]

^This.

Using Stone on MK's glide? Never thought of that. Good idea. :bigthumbu Stone also works against a midair Mach Tornado, right?

And when you think about it, Kirby has enough air mobility to make it pretty hard for MK to gimp him, compared to most of the cast.

Lol... Good luck landing that stone... (Not to mention it doesn't break tornado unless it hits the very middle.)

That being said, pretty much everything breaks glide attack. Simply Utilt him to clash and grab him before/as he hits the ground in fall special.

k
new Maestro tipz

The only reasons MK doesnt destroy Kirby is that Kirby can recover (unless ur doin it wrong) and he can kill

So, by that logic, recover and kill him.

Except that doesnt take into account dsmash

****

SAKURAIIIIIIIIIIIIIII!

On a more serious note, Inui is bottom tier.

======

But really, Kirby doesnt have alot going for him except for the fact that hes got very little that MK can completely take advantage of (ex poor recovery, being a huge target). Of course, Kirby is light, but Dsmash is equally broken against all characters. Youll get destroyed if you go all-out offensive without some l33t m1ndg4m3z to back it up, so play defensively, slowly tack on damage, and go for the early kill. The key is connecting with the Fsmash.

If it weren't for the fact that Kirby has to play much harder to win, I'd be willing to say it's 50-50. But that'd be considered blasphemy.

Wow... that was almost ridiculously over-simplified... Among other things, Fsmash is not easy to connect with vs MK, unless he gets too predictable with Dtilt/Tornado/Drill.

 

[A1lion835]

Right, now, under the cover of a sleepiness john, I shall post my brief thoughts which I never got to post yet (dam finals!).

If he tries to recover with shuttle loop, you can hit him while he glides. If he tries to recover with a whorenado, you can wait above and just inside of his tornado's reach. If he comes towards you, you can drop down and bair/dair him in the middle where there's a hurtbox. His only real choice with tornado would be to gain height and then try to go above you, but such is the miracle of kirby's five jumps. So he'll probably try to drill rush, which I think actually can be hit if you hit his body. If he's barely knocked offstage he can dimensional cape, and there's nothing you can really do about that : /.

Only 2 problems with that: managing to get mk offstage and then managing to make him use all his jumps. Since it's unlikely he'll use all his jumps and likely that he'll manage to stagespike you, try to carefully hit him during his jumps and stuff (final cutter is nice if he's close enough to the stage, though it has its drawbacks). But as I said, it'll be hard to get him into that position, so yea...w/e.

Anyway, sorry for this post being my thoughts, then me seeing blatant faults my thoughts. See sleepiness john referenced in top of post. I'll post this anyway because there might be something useful in it. Please no flames for the badness of my post.

 

[Kewkky]

Stone... Against glide? o_O

And hmm, never thought of utilting MK's glide attack... I usually try and intercept it, so it gives MK less time to think and keeps him on his toes.

Nope, not everything that hits MK during his drill rush can break it. I've tried stone, and it doesn't work. Trust me, I try the most random things during friendlies... I've even KO'd off the sides by offstage edgeguarding with inhales then spitting them into the blast zones (it was a DDD, not an MK).

Just practice on your reaction times, work on bait-punishment skills, and learn your grab's frames (sometimes you can start a dashgrab before the opponent is in range for the grab, and when the grab animations start, your opponent will be in range for the grab, unable to retaliate with ANYTHING... Just call it spacing your grabs, olol). Once you have those things down, you'll seriously see the matchup change drastically, and you'll feel the matchup is closer to even than an actual counterpick-level disadvantage.

 

[thrillagorilla]

I'd like to say I'm proud of the Kirby mains that are swallowing their Kirby pride and calling it like it is (though I'm not particularly impressed by the Sonic discussion... I'll play Tudios later this month and see what Kirby can and can't do against the blue blur).

Most everything that can be said has been said, save that people need to stop assuming that they can outsmart their opponent every time. Its not that Kirby doesn't have the tools to punish Metaknight. He does. But the fact that the only way Kirby can reliably get damage in against a Metaknight that knows how to handle the MU is punish means that we are at a disadvantage. We have no consistent way of dealing damage or leading into a KO move versus Metaknight with the tools we have. Bairs, sliding shield grabs, you name it and Metaknight has a way to counter it or do it better. We have to wait for the opportunity, and even then, a Metaknight player can do the exact same thing.

I think this was said, but I'll re-state it. We are not the only ones who can bait. Metaknights can do this just as well as we can. If they aren't willing to change their style of play as the MU calls for, then its their own fault as players and not the character's inherent attributes.

I'm agreeing with t1mmy on the 40-60 Metaknight favor. (He's said 35-65 to me before, though. I'm not sure what he thinks now that he's played M2K and Tyrant) We can punish Metaknight much better than some characters, but we have to rely on mindgames if we are going to do any damage in this MU. This simple fact in and of itself should make the MU 40-60.

 

[Sensei Seibrik]

Just on a quick note, so people understand where IM coming from, i def. beat Chu in a MM with mk vs his kirby, im not gloating in the least, but i def. know the matchup, and im not sure who here is gona argue that chu doesnt know how to fight mk....


90% of the time, especially if mk has the lead, he can walk around, wait for kirby to get close, and either do a random dash grab for kirbies predictable shield grab approach, or hold shield, wait for movement, and SL. SL has invincibility so simply saying run and grab my sheild isn't going to work if thats exactly what im waiting for, that and just about any air approach kirby has gets eaten by SL, and again, i agree, if its predicted and blocked, thats where kirby gets his one uair or bair, but thats not a tremendous punishment, since the kirby is going to now be preassured to block more often to avoid SL, thus making him way more open for mk's dash grabs, which gets MK alot of good % with simple reads and predictions, sometimes even a gimp....



hope that clears up a couple things i've mentioned...

 

[Sensei Seibrik]

i don't think you see that kirby has potential and if you use him right and know your opponent, you can overcome many disadvantages with him.

have u taken into account the reprecussions that insue when the mk is used right and knows his kirby opponent?...

 

[fromundaman]

Just on a quick note, so people understand where IM coming from, i def. beat Chu in a MM with mk vs his kirby, im not gloating in the least, but i def. know the matchup, and im not sure who here is gona argue that chu doesnt know how to fight mk....


90% of the time, especially if mk has the lead, he can walk around, wait for kirby to get close, and either do a random dash grab for kirbies predictable shield grab approach, or hold shield, wait for movement, and SL. SL has invincibility so simply saying run and grab my sheild isn't going to work if thats exactly what im waiting for, that and just about any air approach kirby has gets eaten by SL, and again, i agree, if its predicted and blocked, thats where kirby gets his one uair or bair, but thats not a tremendous punishment, since the kirby is going to now be preassured to block more often to avoid SL, thus making him way more open for mk's dash grabs, which gets MK alot of good % with simple reads and predictions, sometimes even a gimp....



hope that clears up a couple things i've mentioned...

Very true, but ehhh... that's why I would say it's in your favor: Because SL stops any and all of our approaches, not that they are particularly amazing in the first place.
However, we shouldn't really be doing too much approaching anyway, since this is a matchup I've found that must be played very defensively.
Of course, problems arise when you realize that SL beats all our defensive options as well. Basically, SL ***** all our options unless we shield it (if you spot-dodge, you run the risk of getting a glide attack to the face), though if we shield it, we can punish it fairly easily.

However, as you said, this forces us to shield a lot, which gets us grabbed often.

In the end, SL is really the main problem in this matchup IMO...

 

[DC]

Ah there's so many things I want to comment on...

Basically, SL ***** all our options unless we shield it (if you spot-dodge, you run the risk of getting a glide attack to the face), though if we shield it, we can punish it fairly easily.

Just for the record... glide attack can be spaced correctly. It has deceiving range and when space correctly, even if powershielded, MK can land and dsmash if he see us running up to punish him.

I think this was said, but I'll re-state it. We are not the only ones who can bait. Metaknights can do this just as well as we can.

Indeed, a lot of people don't realize this.

ok for starters, you don't have to apprach meta right away.

And your entire post makes it sound like MK HAS to approach us. It's 100 times easier for MK to camp us when they have the lead. Seriously, I've read your entire post and (I apologize to say), but it's nothing but simplified strategies that look like they would work on paper but don't in real matches. No MK is going to use tornado if you are waiting for him on stage, jump out and use stone on their glide? Dair on drill rush? Lmao... I'm sorry man I can't take your post seriously.

It's weird, despite the experience vs good MKs you have, a lot of what you say is wrong. Well, not a ton, but a fair number. For example, only MK's glide attack and tornado clank with anything, hence not Ftilt.

Anything I've posted I've definitely had happen.

Dair camping is really not a problem for any Kirby who has a working shield button. They do a rising Dair, you powershield and follow. They do a decending Dair, you shield and grab. They land and try to Dsmash? You can grab them before the Dsmash, or grab them during the backwards swing if you PS the hit.

Read my short paragraph on dair camping and tell your MK friends to do the same.

If you think Bair and shieldgrabs are our only options in this matchup, you are sorely mistaken.

Also, if anything else, Kirby has gotten MORE abusable tricks since 08, though not many people make use of them, since too many disregard anything situational, no matter how useful.

It's funny though, you say this but you haven't actually given any examples. Tell me our options on a MK holding his shield from a ftilt distance away.

Killing power: about even. Kirby's Fsmash and Hammer KO at very low percents, but they're going to be hard to land. MK can kill you offstage with Shuttle Loop at even lower percents, and that's a bit easier to land, if you're in the right (wrong) position. His Dsmash is also harder to avoid and harder to punish than our Fsmash, and it will kill at a slightly higher percent than our Fsmash, I think. His Fsmash has some startup time, but it's almost impossible to punish afterwards, and it's strong. Nair is a great killer too. It's easy to get stagespiked against MK.

Then how is this even at all? In this matchup we have 2 reliable kill attacks to his what, 6? Our kill attacks are easily avoided while we struggle to rack up damage, while he has a dozen options to rack up damage and kill us, ON TOP of being able to gimp us at low percents.

There is more stuff that I could reply to but if you read any part of my post let it be this part...
It all boils down to the simple fact that Meta Knight has ~5 options for our 1. For example, if he shields a fsmash he can choose to grab+dthrow for damage, fthrow or bthrow us off the stage, putting us it on horrible position, grounded SL, dmash for a possible kill, jump dair, etc. If we shield one of a dsmash we can POSSIBLY ftilt him. Hell, depending on when we shield it we could expect another dmash in the face.

I love Kirby man, if I didn't I would just be playing MK right now. I've said before that MK is a better version of Kirby in almost every conceivable way, but I stick with Kirby. He has no glaring weaknesses that can't be overcome with skill, but I sincerely think that some of you are letting this cloud your judgment when deciding the rating for this obviously bad matchup. Anything is possible but when we have to work 10x harder to kill a character than they do then that is the definition of a bad matchup.

I still say 35/65 Meta Knight with matchup experience. It may have been 45/55 in 2008 but not anymore.

 

[Delta Z]

In this matchup we have 2 reliable kill attacks to his what, 6? Our kill attacks are easily avoided while we struggle to rack up damage, while he has a dozen options to rack up damage and kill us, ON TOP of being able to gimp us at low percents.

Is it just me or are you only counting Kirby's most reliable kill moves, then counting every kill move MK could conceivably use, even the most situational ones? In case you forgot, Kirby isn't that bad at stringing attacks himself, and doesn't get comboed much himself because of how floaty he is.

Anything is possible but when we have to work 10x harder to kill a character than they do then that is the definition of a bad matchup.

We may have to work harder, but not a ton harder, and definitely not 10 times harder.

 

[Allied]

i'd say more than like 5 notable smashers so far have proved basically its a 60:40 matchup whats left to argue? if anything i think its 65/35 like DC said but people are too prideful about kirby

>.>

no one is really proving that the matchup belongs lower towards kirby favor or saying anything that hasn't been said and then responded too proving them usually wrong

 

[Allied]

Is it just me or are you only counting Kirby's most reliable kill moves, then counting every kill move MK could conceivably use, even the most situational ones? In case you forgot, Kirby isn't that bad at stringing attacks himself, and doesn't get comboed much himself because of how floaty he is.

We may have to work harder, but not a ton harder, and definitely not 10 times harder.

no offense but what are you talking about

Thats litterally how many kill moves kirby has to metaknight in a real match

don't tell me your gonna bust out your stone form as a kill move
qft

MK has wayy more klling moves than 6 hes just mentioning the most dominate ones

hell metaknight's down b is a kill move >.<

Kirby can only really string attacks on a good mk from about 0-30% if done correctly and precisely and

have you faced a metaknight because they can combo anyway in fact the floatier the better in metaknight's case >.>


And i stated this in the beginning of the discussion the is a HUGE uphill battle for kirby in every way this is litterally working 10x harder compared to metaknight's Dair camping

 

[|RK|]

I'm disappointed in all of you who claim that people saying 55:45 are just too prideful. You are making gross generalizations on what you have no proof of stop this now. I'm gonna go get some MKs in here if possible and I'll ask Chu's opinion.

 

[:mad:]

Don't really think Chu cares. At the end of the day, Kirby still loses to Meta Knight. You're arguing minimal ratios when it's really not any worse than 60:40. That's exactly what Meta Knight MU discussions are. Talking about how you LOSE to him.

 

[momochuu]

The matchup is 40-60. >_>

This becomes easier to see when you realize MK is just a better version of Kirby. (Almost) Everything Kirby can do, MK can do better and with safer, better options.

 

[|RK|]

Don't really think Chu cares. At the end of the day, Kirby still loses to Meta Knight. You're arguing minimal ratios when it's really not any worse than 60:40. That's exactly what Meta Knight MU discussions are. Talking about how you LOSE to him.

Objection. Look at the MK matchup thread. Then look at Diddy's matchup ratio, rediscussed.

 

[Kewkky]

I still believe it's lower than 65:35, Allied. The matches aren't THAT difficult, and you'd find yourself doing far better than most of the cast against MK if you are conscious about MK's options, and your own mistakes. As long as you know what MK might do in a situation then you can retaliate appropriately (sure, our airdodge isn't reliable thanks to MK's uair, but it does help when we're near the floor... airdodge>shield and you're back onstage, if you're fearing for any approach in MK's part if you're close to the floor).

Seriously, I can't see the 65:35, and I don't know what you guys mean by "uphill battle"... To me, it's just like any other matchup (even Lucario/Marth/G&W): be aware of what he's capable of doing to you, and block/evade/counter the options they choose to do. It's all about knowing what MK can do to Kirby in the situations you'll find yourself in.

 

[:mad:]

I seriously don't get what I'm supposed to look at.

The matchup is 60:40, I never said they can't be rediscussed, just that this one never changed. Think, RK.

 

[|RK|]

I seriously don't get what I'm supposed to look at.

The matchup is 60:40, I never said they can't be rediscussed, just that this one never changed. Think, RK.

No you said matchup discussions w/ Meta-Knight is how they lose to Meta-Knight. Diddy is 50:50.


And we need more MK mains in here, seriously.

 

[:mad:]

Oh wow. Didn't think you'd take it so seriously. Plenty of characters have been though of as even. Wario, Snake, Diddy. And there's quite a few top players that think either of them have slight advantages.