Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)

[ShadowLink84]

Well, that's true, but it's true to all characters. I think there is a thread explaining why all the ledge-get-up options are punishable. What first came to my mind ,though, is to get up normally, and when your opponent approaches, use the DK Punch and SA frames to stop them, but that's really situational and would really only work one time before your opponent would catch on.

not really, pit, Sonic and ROB have a great many options when they are off the stage or on the ledge.
TL definitely has more options as well as greater speed.

I guess then it would have to be a necessity to learn for DK mains then. In Melee, Falco's SHL wasn't easy but once you got the timing, it was super rewarding. It's the same with DK, just get the timing.

Probably, but unlike SDL I just don't really see it being practical do to how much cooldown time and start up there is for the move.

So with that statement, is this argument about his edge game or his problem with him being edgeguarded?

Problem with him being edge guarded.
Mainly since he is still limited even once he gets onto the ledge.

Look closely. You can see the start up frames for his Up-b before he sweetspots the ledge...

Thats not SA, if it wer ehe would suffer damage. he autosweetspotted.

 

[SaxDude93]

lol no.


He's far from the lightest, that goes to Jigglypuff and G&W respectively.

Ditto. Jiggly is the lightest, then Maim and Watch, then Squirtle. FOx is like, 7th lightest.

 

[Blistering Speed]

IC can never move further then low high, purely because with proper spacing they can't do jack. People like Marth, MK, Snake, DK etc all destroy them

 

[Veng]

When people call me annoying ( pit player ) because I play bit, does that mean im doing good?


It only makes sense, when some ones losing they hate it.

Hence what makes him higher tier?

 

[Kiwikomix]

IC can never move further then low high, purely because with proper spacing they can't do jack. People like Marth, MK, Snake, DK etc all destroy them

Incorrect sir. The Icies, like Dedede, have a lot more going for them than chain grabs. Besides, without proper spacing EVERY character can't do jack... and Marth is all about spacing.

 

[Fearmy]

well IC projectile is useless well with other projectiles that go through walls Ex: Ivysaur's Razor Leaf. it hits both of the IC too with razor leaf i'm pretty sure. The ice that is coming back won't do damage to you

 

[stoopdklutz]

Way to HEAVILY contradict yourself

haha oops didn't realize that, but I hope you kinda got what I was trying to say...not really?
....uhm.......TIERS ARE FOR QUEERS!


As much as I love the little eskimos, they have too many shortcomings to get past lower half of high tier.

1.Grab range is pretty crappy.
2. Lose Nana, your half effective and at a disadvantage.
3. Grabs doesn't always equal death. The player might slip up, and maybe if you DO grab, Nana is to far away.
4.Approach is sup-par, though approaching is harder this game anyways.
5.Steep learning curve= not many players compared to SNAKE.
6. Bad range on some attacks. Sure it's disjointed, but it's not that far...

I could list a few pros if you guys ask me to, but I don't think the IC's will ever get lower than upper half of mid.

 

[Blistering Speed]

It doesn't matter there not just about CG's, DDD can't have his options extremely limited by desynching
@ Kiwikomix

 

[SnatchForFree]

haha oops didn't realize that, but I hope you kinda got what I was trying to say...not really?
....uhm.......TIERS ARE FOR QUEERS!


As much as I love the little eskimos, they have too many shortcomings to get past lower half of high tier.

1.Grab range is pretty crappy.
2. Lose Nana, your half effective and at a disadvantage.
3. Grabs doesn't always equal death. The player might slip up, and maybe if you DO grab, Nana is to far away.
4.Approach is sup-par, though approaching is harder this game anyways.
5.Steep learning curve= not many players compared to SNAKE.
6. Bad range on some attacks. Sure it's disjointed, but it's not that far...

I could list a few pros if you guys ask me to, but I don't think the IC's will ever get lower than upper half of mid.

I disagree with 4. Desynching gives the ICs a ****load of approach options, which are better than most of the cast.

 

[BBQ°]

text

I suggest you go to the DK boards and watch some half decent DK players. Watch what they do in terms of recovery and edge game.

 

[Ills]

5.Steep learning curve= not many players compared to SNAKE.

OBJECTION!
Snake is a hard-*** character to learn,
Number of players =/= easy to learn.

 

[gantrain05]

so i was at a local tourney here the other day, there were alot of very good smashers there, and i think everyone was really a different main, i think somethin like 20 ppl showed up and there was only 1 snake and 1 MK, alot of the cast was well represented, but as i noticed yesterday, i saw a very good pikachu player vs a very good MK and probably 7/10 times pika won that matchup, so im not sure but i think pika is turning into a good MK counter. and i was playing my ness against alot of ppl, mostly falcos and marths and i was winning almost every time, and so i was wondering why ness is so low on the tier lists? low tier? i don't know, im thinking mid tier for him, i think he should be above lucas.

 

[ShadowLink84]

I suggest you go to the DK boards and watch some half decent DK players. Watch what they do in terms of recovery and edge game.

i've played several decent Dk's and when I go up against them I typically am able to space myself so that even if I am using a character who fails at edge guarding i.e. Link I can usually maintain the pressure.

Don't text me either please. its kinda saddening ;-;

 

[Corigames]

and that is why I hate people who flame and insult people. ****, seriously do you really need to give me that sort of attitude? I made one simple mistake. whoopity ****ing doo! everyone makes mistakes.

no need to be a prick about it.

Uh...

Seriously, I am getting fed up with ignorant people. Please stop ignoring us.

I think that you insulting me is grounds for me insulting you. If you can't handle that balance in things, then don't post abrasive things in the first place and I might not say it back to you.

 

[stoopdklutz]

well, #4 compounds on #5...

I didn't mean that Snake is an easy character to play. I meant that he has a lot of people playing him.

 

[BBQ°]

i've played several decent Dk's and when I go up against them I typically am able to space myself so that even if I am using a character who fails at edge guarding i.e. Link I can usually maintain the pressure.

Don't text me either please. its kinda saddening ;-;

Sorry, I didn't want it to seem like I was ignoring what you wrote, I just didn't have a better way to quote what you said and then respond to it as a whole.

I would like to play you online sometime, just to see your strategies against Donkey Kong. If you live in South East US then I'll be willing to fight. I think if you lived outside of that region we would get too much lag though. I'm not a DK main, I use Lucas and Pikachu, but my DK isn't half bad.

 

[BBQ°]

so i was at a local tourney here the other day, there were alot of very good smashers there, and i think everyone was really a different main, i think somethin like 20 ppl showed up and there was only 1 snake and 1 MK, alot of the cast was well represented, but as i noticed yesterday, i saw a very good pikachu player vs a very good MK and probably 7/10 times pika won that matchup, so im not sure but i think pika is turning into a good MK counter. and i was playing my ness against alot of ppl, mostly falcos and marths and i was winning almost every time, and so i was wondering why ness is so low on the tier lists? low tier? i don't know, im thinking mid tier for him, i think he should be above lucas.

The Marth player probably wasn't that good >.>
Marth has an infinite grab glitch on Ness.

I hope Pikachu does turn out to be a MK counter though.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Sorry, I didn't want it to seem like I was ignoring what you wrote, I just didn't have a better way to quote what you said and then respond to it as a whole.

LIES AND BLSPHEMY! j/k
I understand.

I would like to play you online sometime, just to see your strategies against Donkey Kong. If you live in South East US then I'll be willing to fight. I think if you lived outside of that region we would get too much lag though. I'm not a DK main, I use Lucas and Pikachu, but my DK isn't half bad.

I usually live in north east region but currently in south eastern. I am actually a state away from you *is in South Carolina*
I'll see if I can steal some wifi. I'll pm you when I can.
I am typically a sonic/Link main.

 

[gantrain05]

The Marth player probably wasn't that good >.>
Marth has an infinite grab glitch on Ness.

I hope Pikachu does turn out to be a MK counter though.

nah the marth was pretty good, i just try to avoid getting into and infinte grab situation, cuz that grab-release glitch is a pain in the ***, but yeah i was doing alot of my fighting in the air, and when i was on the ground i'd be pressuring the marth with AAA combos and good yoyo tactics, so he didn't have much opportunity for the grab-release, even tho he did get it off once, i still managed to win, but yeah, other than the stupid glitch, i'd say ness is a pretty good marth counter.

 

[BBQ°]

I'll see if I can steal some wifi. I'll pm you when I can.
I am typically a sonic/Link main.

Ok, cool. I'll be checking my PM box whenever I get on smashboards, and I'll add your brawl and wii code.

 

[ShadowLink84]

nah the marth was pretty good, i just try to avoid getting into and infinte grab situation, cuz that grab-release glitch is a pain in the ***, but yeah i was doing alot of my fighting in the air, and when i was on the ground i'd be pressuring the marth with AAA combos and good yoyo tactics, so he didn't have much opportunity for the grab-release, even tho he did get it off once, i still managed to win, but yeah, other than the stupid glitch, i'd say ness is a pretty good marth counter.

As said the Marth must suck if you beat him.

 

[BBQ°]

nah the marth was pretty good, i just try to avoid getting into and infinte grab situation, cuz that grab-release glitch is a pain in the ***, but yeah i was doing alot of my fighting in the air, and when i was on the ground i'd be pressuring the marth with AAA combos and good yoyo tactics, so he didn't have much opportunity for the grab-release, even tho he did get it off once, i still managed to win, but yeah, other than the stupid glitch, i'd say ness is a pretty good marth counter.

I'm a Lucas main myself, and I have the same problem (just not as bad as Ness). The one problem I find with Ness though, is you can jump into his PK thunder while he is trying to recover and Ness will die. I really think Ness and Lucas would be good Marth counters if it weren't for the glitch. Pk-fire ftw.

 

[gantrain05]

As said the Marth must suck if you beat him.

thats your opinion, but i hardly think you can assume people that you have never met suck at the game, and if i beat a marth with ness your saying the marth automatically sucks? thats not really a fair assumption and it kind of makes you seem like an ***.

 

[ShadowLink84]

thats your opinion,

A well supported opinion considering Marth beats Ness aerially, can gimp him well and is quite hard for Ness to edge guard.

but i hardly think you can assume people that you have never met suck at the game,

Oh I am sure you don't suck, but I am betting the Marth did.

and if i beat a marth with ness your saying the marth automatically sucks? thats not really a fair assumption and it kind of makes you seem like an ***.

What you forget though is that I am an ***.

For one Marth has an advantage over Ness. It isn't just because of the grab-elease infinite, thats far from it.
Aerially Marth is one of the best, Ness has good aerials but just Marth beats out Lucario's aerial game he can do the same to Ness.
Ness's ground game is good but again, Marth can approach well an once he gets close he can rack up damage quickly.
He can also pressure Ness more easily than Ness would do to Marth.

Edge guarding Marth is difficult due to how quickly he moves.


I am quite sure you are a capable Ness.
I am a good sonic (least i hope so) and I have 3 stocked a Marth, does it mean that my Sonic counts Marth? Does it mean Sonic does not have a disadvantage against Marth?
No of course not, it simply means that marth wasn't on my skill level.
I am at a disadvantage and I have to work harder to beat him.

Can you honestly say that both you and your opponent had the same skill level? Or that he had to work just as hard in that match as you did?

 

[da K.I.D.]

A

What you forget though is that I am an ***.

For one Marth has an advantage over Ness. It isn't just because of the grab-elease infinite, thats far from it.
Aerially Marth is one of the best, Ness has good aerials but just Marth beats out Lucario's aerial game he can do the same to Ness.
Ness's ground game is good but again, Marth can approach well an once he gets close he can rack up damage quickly.
He can also pressure Ness more easily than Ness would do to Marth.

Edge guarding Marth is difficult due to how quickly he moves.


I am quite sure you are a capable Ness.
I am a good sonic (least i hope so) and I have 3 stocked a Marth, does it mean that my Sonic counts Marth? Does it mean Sonic does not have a disadvantage against Marth?
No of course not, it simply means that marth wasn't on my skill level.
I am at a disadvantage and I have to work harder to beat him.

Can you honestly say that both you and your opponent had the same skill level? Or that he had to work just as hard in that match as you did?

QFT
also i know this guy from the sonic boards adn hes right... hes a total d-bag. lol
and let me answer that question for you. No. you cannot truthfully say that

 

[da K.I.D.]

also i would go so far as to say that 75% of snakes game consists of snakedashing, and spacing tilts. i believe that makes him a pretty easy character to learn, if you disagree, feel free to explain yourself.

 

[ShadowLink84]

also i would go so far as to say that 75% of snakes game consists of snakedashing, and spacing tilts. i believe that makes him a pretty easy character to learn, if you disagree, feel free to explain yourself.

Grenade stripping. mine plants, C4 usage. proper method of spacing.
DAC is useful but not godly.
proper usage of grabs, prediction.

He's not an easy character to learn. ^_^

 

[stoopdklutz]

Easier than a fair majority of the cast though.

 

[Veng]

But seriously.. im tired of these mother ****ing snakes in this mother ****ing game.


Hes not really broken, ( well kind of ) but all the noobs use him and well.. everyone uses him.

 

[Gindler]

He's fairly easy to pickup (MK being easiest, I'm sure no one argues this fact). But yeah, snake was easy for me to pick up, just put C4 in a good place along with the Dsmash, learn to cook grenades and use Ftilt of Utilt and your pretty much a good snake (not a great one, that takes a couple days but a good one none the less)

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

He's fairly easy to pickup (MK being easiest, I'm sure no one argues this fact). But yeah, snake was easy for me to pick up, just put C4 in a good place along with the Dsmash, learn to cook grenades and use Ftilt of Utilt and your pretty much a good snake (not a great one, that takes a couple days but a good one none the less)

I definitely agree with this, Snake used to be my main... until I realized that I sucked with him and that the only reason I could win with him was that he was powerful and I knew how to use C4 and then follow with a side smash... MK is also easy to pick up, I picked him up about 2 weeks ago, and now he is one of my secondaries... I also think that ZSS isn't too hard to pick up, but to get her good strategies down... well thats another story...

 

[HK Donut of the Blue Fire]

i got an idea of what the tier list might be! *prepares wavebird*

AHEM!!.......TIERS DONT EXSIST, NOT IN BRAWL!
*wavebird *****smacks random bystander*


dude ike is solid, wanna join my plot to raid the fox news building destroy the 300 myspace employees, and then eliminate the systems server?!?

 

[gallax]

it seems to me that the tier list is going to be changed a lot. for instance. i am a pika user and most would agree that he is either high mid-high tier right now. but at tournaments, he has only 1 top 8 placement. no wins. stuff like this is going to put characters, like pika, down on the list. another good example is marth. his popularity in tournaments is going down, way down. he is one of the most balanced characters in the game, but he isnt winning like he should be. its so easy to pick up snake and MK and win. this kills me to no end. i mean, in melee, it took me a good 2 months to get down fox and all the stuff with shines and same with falco. it took dedication and skill to be good with these characters but yet they were still awesome. in brawl, i could be awesome with snake in a week or 2. he is so broken and overused it is sickening. i hope as time goes on that the tier lists is going to reflect more on skill than charachter popularity.

 

[Jump_Man]

So why do tournament results affect the tier list? It just shows alot of people use G&W, Snake and MK. Why do they affect the tier list? Can someone please tell me without flaming me

 

[Airwalkerr]

What page is the list? lol 600 pages of useless comments is too much to go thru to find the list

 

[Kasai]

So why do tournament results affect the tier list? It just shows alot of people use G&W, Snake and MK. Why do they affect the tier list? Can someone please tell me without flaming me

Because, to a certain extent, the tourney results are less impacted by popularity than you probably think. Of course, if 50 people out of a 64 people tourney all play snake, it will be flawed but it's not that extreme. In addition, the character can be infinitely popular but if they can't beat the other characters, it wouldn't make a difference. Also, the fact that there are other characters placing well (Wario, DDD, Falco, Lucario, Marth etc) and beating the "popular characters" shows that there obviously isn't enough bias to completely throw off the results.

 

[Kasai]

What page is the list? lol 600 pages of useless comments is too much to go thru to find the list

There are quite a few tier lists on a lot of different pages. There isn't an official one out yet.

 

[payasofobia]

It's because tournament results reflect how effective a character can be when used in tournaments, if character x wins a lot of tournaments, then that means that that character has higher probabilities of winning, and thus, making him ideal for the competitive scene. On the other hand, if character y doesn't win any tournaments, it means that he is not very effective from the competitive standpoint, since you have lower probabilities of winning a tournament.

You must also remember that, basically, tournaments are the most important part of a competitive scene; there it's no competitive scene without competition, obviusly.

EDI:it seems that kasai was quicker.

 

[JrdnS]

What page is the list? lol 600 pages of useless comments is too much to go thru to find the list

there is no official list. this is the tier disscusion people just post there thoughts and lists here. some suck some are decent.

 

[Jump_Man]

It's because tournament results reflect how effective a character can be when used in tournaments, if character x wins a lot of tournaments, then that means that that character has higher probabilities of winning, and thus, making him ideal for the competitive scene. On the other hand, if character y doesn't win any tournaments, it means that he is not very effective from the competitive standpoint, since you have lower probabilities of winning a tournament.

You must also remember that, basically, tournaments are the most important part of a competitive scene; there it's no competitive scene without competition, obviusly.

EDI:it seems that kasai was quicker.

Well, that makes sense, but if half or nearly half of the participents in a tourney pick Snake, then Snake would have a higher probability of winning, so doesn't that kind of mess up the results? And the one person in that tournament using Jigglypuff would have a low chance of winning. So, you can argue that tourneys are actually bias.