Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)

[Jump_Man]

Because, to a certain extent, the tourney results are less impacted by popularity than you probably think. Of course, if 50 people out of a 64 people tourney all play snake, it will be flawed but it's not that extreme. In addition, the character can be infinitely popular but if they can't beat the other characters, it wouldn't make a difference. Also, the fact that there are other characters placing well (Wario, DDD, Falco, Lucario, Marth etc) and beating the "popular characters" shows that there obviously isn't enough bias to completely throw off the results.

Oh, I see. So tourneys really aren't that bias

Btw, where do you get this info on tourney results?

 

[DanGR]

Just to add to kasai, Olimar isn't very popular, but he's 6th in summer tourneys

 

[Yoshi Kirishima]

I've been absent in this discussion for about 15 pages I skimmed through about 10 of them and skipped the last 5, i was impatient. Now, i don't want to find everyone's posts to quote, so i'll just say them in general here.

I believe that the tourny results for how well each character does should be averaged.

Yoshi's WD is called Dragonic Reverse. It is not an AT for pivoting. Its a WD that can be pivoted. While doing this WD, you can do anything you want as you slide. Probably even better than the WDs in Melee, since I believe that during a WD in Melee, you couldn't do an attack until you canceled the WD by pressing Down. Now, you can attack while you slide, pretty much giving each attack and smash a drastic increase in range. You can also pivot with it. With Yoshi's Fsmash, it is useful to dodge an attack with it since it leans backwards first, then comes in to attack (punish). Used with WD, you can it makes it even better. You do a WD, pivot backwards, thus creating a slide backwards, then pivot (or is it run/walk?) again and do a fsmash so you slide back to the original forward while punishing the foe with a fsmash.

Yes, coreygame, it may not move Yoshi up a spot at all, but it still does have potential and at least does help a little. And nice vid ( I think Frown posted it) about combos with DK. I'll practice with him and see if I like him. He seems fun to use, since I love grabbing, and grabbing seems like an important thing to DK, especiall grabbing them onto your back and throwing them into the ledge to ledge spike them. And also I see hes very good at edgegaurding. These two things are like the most fun things for me in Brawl.

Edited because the original version may have been confusing: And someone said that bwett is a good reason why Yoshi should be in low of Mid Tier. There are a lot of players from the Yoshi Tribe that are good too, some even better (in the sense of winning, to avoid sounding ignorant). And remember, Yoshi has a super double jump now, so that more than makes up his lack of his third jump (or, a 'normal' third jump).

 

[Blaze93]

Well in my opinion popularity doesnt matter. All because if you have a normal tourney without popularity ( 1 snake, 1 meta, 1 falco, 1 wario, 1 daydayday ) The winner in order would show most likely the A. Skill of the player B. skill of the character

So if you take that list, add 49 snake.. ( 50 snake, 1 meta, 1 falco, 1 wario, 1 daydayday ) but those 49 snakes arent that great... its still going to end up the same way..

just takes longer to cancel out the noob snakes.

________________

So hows falco doing anyways? I was thinking about second/maining him since my beloved melee sheik completely got nerfed in brawl.

Any tips on a character btw?

 

[adumbrodeus]

I believe that the tourny results for how well each character does should be averaged.

So wait, if 25 people choose Snake, but only 5 actually has any real expirience, and they take the top slot, and the rest line the bottom that averages out to an enormous loss by snake whereas the guy who takes 6 has the highest average placing if he's the only player of that char....

Yeah, the problem with doing that is that it gives new tournament players an undue influence. We're assuming that this is the top of the metagame and players who aren't good enough to play at least top 8 aren't representative of the character's true abilities.

 

[Grunt]

Oh, I see. So tourneys really aren't that bias

Btw, where do you get this info on tourney results?

In tactical discussion, there is a "Rankings chart" thread.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

This is irrelevant but I am tired of n00bs double posting. Just edit yore post, and then putin yore 2nd comment. It's that easy.

 

[Jump_Man]

Don't know how to put in multiple quotes in one post, so sorry about the double post.

 

[DanGR]

Future top tier-
MK

Now get over it.

 

[mitchlol7]

I would like to say this one thing. The teatherers(example olimar and zamus) can only be used effectivly by someone that can find a way to teather on to a ledge without being edgegaurded making them good in teams so the other person can protect the ledge. Thus making them good with teams and not as good in singles.

And yes snake and mk will be top tier

 

[stoopdklutz]

I would like to say this one thing. The teatherers(example olimar and zamus) can only be used effectivly by someone that can find a way to teather on to a ledge without being edgegaurded making them good in teams so the other person can protect the ledge.

Then they aren't effective in 1 on 1 then because there's no one to stop the edgehog?

No.

olimar and ZSS have other strengths to cover that weakness. Olimar has a great projectile and powerful smashes all around, and ZS has has a good edgguard game, goodf spacing, and powerful aerial juggling abilities.

 

[Wrath`]

I wonder whan Snake and MK will knocked down of thier throne, it happend in melee,but who will it be?

 

[brg]

Future top tier-
MK

Now get over it.

Metaknight is the single most broken character in the game. I am on the verge of : ''If you cant beat em, join em''. On the verge I tell you...

 

[WolfCypher]

Metaknight is the single most broken character in the game. I am on the verge of : ''If you cant beat em, join em''. On the verge I tell you...

I'll have the sign-up papers ready for you...

 

[gallax]

imo ROB is going to move up. I see great potential in him. i still think that a year from now(9 months soonest) people will start agreeing on the tier lists. i hear that Ken is going to his first brawl tourney and he said that he is going to revolutionize marth. we all know what he did for marth in melee. marth may move up again.

 

[hillbillyhick]

Hello everyone I’m new at the boards. I’ve been looking at this thread and went over a few pages already (not all of them, 600 pages is way too much). I’ve noticed that some of you really think tier lists based on tournament settings are enough to conclude that character A is better than character B, when the skills of the player are the same. Well based on tournament settings you CAN NOT deduct this. Many people say tiers are wrong and all their reasons boil down to the next sentence. I’m not trying to sound like a smartass here, but as long as the scientific method isn’t used, these so called “tiers” are nothing but BELIEFS. Really, a tier list says nothing about how good each character is in comparison to another. It’s not even being averaged (which really wouldn’t help, but it might be a step in the good direction). So people saying that (real) tiers don’t exist are actually correct, they don’t. Now I’m not saying tiers are wrong, actually the existing tier lists might be a very accurate representation of how good a character really is, but there’s no way of knowing if it is right, because the current methods of creating tiers are wrong. That’s why I think they’re really just a belief, not a fact. Exactly how a tier should be constructed is really hard to tell, and would be very difficult to achieve in practice. But it should start by a representative sample of people training for a certain time with each character. Then divide them into groups for each character and pit these groups against each other. This is actually very simplistic still.
I hope nobody has said anything like this already, but looking through all these pages is impossible. This is just opinion, but if I’m wrong in any of this, please correct me. And I know that many of you don’t think the tiers are correct, but can be used as a guideline, this post isn’t directed to you. I just want you to know that there is the possibility that the tier lists are entirely wrong and chars like snake or MK are way down at the bottom.
Btw, I already know I’m going to get insulted for this, so have fun doing it. And **** what a long post, congrats to those who read it to the end. ;p

 

[WolfCypher]

there is the possibility that snake or MK are way down at the bottom.

This was the only part(s) of your post I completely disagree with. I'm not one to insult anyone or rile up a flame war, so I'll explain why I disagree...

You say that there is no real way to tell what characters are better than which ones, but actually, when a character has so many broken properties and is easily abusable, it makes that character stand out over the others. Case in point, MK and Snake.

The Brawl tier list is far from finished, and there's no telling where 90%+ of the characters rank, but everyone has generally agreed that 1) Snake and MK are apparent as very, very good characters and 2) Captain Falcon and Ganondorf are the very worst.

That's because, while your method in your post would be the closest to a fair execution to see where certain characters rank, Snake and MK have many advantages that do not need extreme testing to prove how effective they are and C.Falcon and Ganondorf are plauged with issues. As far as the inbetween characters go, I'll leave that up to everyone else.

 

[hillbillyhick]

Well, i would likely disagree with that part of my statement too if someone else were to say it, wolfcyhper.
I agree it is very obvious that there is something to these characters that makes them better than the others. Although I can't be completely sure, I do believe they are way up high in the tier list. It was actually meant as an exaggeration to make my point clear.

 

[brg]

I'll have the sign-up papers ready for you...

not yet, not yet, i wont give up before trying all the other alternatives, the last one of those being snake.

 

[stoopdklutz]

Wait, why does Ganon deserve 2nd worst character? I think Samus, Yoshi, or Jiggs should have that, IMO.

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

Wait, why does Ganon deserve 2nd worst character? I think Samus, Yoshi, or Jiggs should have that, IMO.

He doesn't, and I would say he's better than all three of those guys.


I honestly think he's bottom of Low IMO.

 

[missingnomaster]

Wait, why does Ganon deserve 2nd worst character? I think Samus, Yoshi, or Jiggs should have that, IMO.

I'm interested in your reasoning why Yoshi should be 2nd worst.

 

[iMeeHow]

too many pages cant find a list :O

 

[stoopdklutz]

Agreed with Nigerian, Ganon isn't that bad.

missingnomaster- I'm all for "defend your main," and I respect you for maining Yoshi, but yeah, look a few pages back.

 

[missingnomaster]

I went 12 pages back and didn't see any reasoning except that you thought Yoshi's ATs weren't useful.

Oh yeah. And the popularity thing.

 

[stoopdklutz]

...didn't you see the big discussion thingy?

 

[missingnomaster]

...didn't you see the big discussion thingy?

If it was the thing where you said if Yoshi was more popular then he might place higher in Tourneys, then yes. But I was specifically asking for your reasoning, so I could compare it to other peoples' reasoning.

 

[adumbrodeus]

If it was the thing where you said if Yoshi was more popular then he might place higher in Tourneys, then yes. But I was specifically asking for your reasoning, so I could compare it to other peoples' reasoning.

Actually the conclusion was that he doesn't look good on paper and he doesn't have the tournament standings to dissuade anyone of that conclusion, yet.

Get down dragonic reverse and super jump and win some tournaments, then we'll go from there.

 

[missingnomaster]

Actually the conclusion was that he doesn't look good on paper and he doesn't have the tournament standings to dissuade anyone of that conclusion, yet.

Get down dragonic reverse and super jump and win some tournaments, then we'll go from there.

maybe I didn't go far enough back then.

I thought it was more of the opposite; Yoshi looks good on paper, but doesn't perform as well in actuality.

 

[stoopdklutz]

No, like everyone else talking?

hmm...some reasons....haha ,yea you got me stumped there. aside from that steep learning curve, I got nothing. just don't think he's good. kinda biased, sorry.

About my earlier statement- I didn't say his AT's weren't useful . I meant to say that just because you have a lot of AT's doesn't make you a good character. They have to be inherently good.

 

[mitchlol7]

I just want to say this one thing YOSHI SUCKS

 

[missingnomaster]

there's a place called Gamefaqs, take your trolling there.

 

[stoopdklutz]

He doesn't suck, per se, but match-ups do count for a lot..

 

[salaboB]

Actually the conclusion was that he doesn't look good on paper and he doesn't have the tournament standings to dissuade anyone of that conclusion, yet.

Get down dragonic reverse and super jump and win some tournaments, then we'll go from there.

Shouldn't this apply to most characters that people say should be moved higher? Not that many have won tourneys that I can find (Though I haven't located a compilation of who's won tournies and seem to have misplaced the thread that was working on doing that for the weeklies) so it seems like all the lower end characters fall into the "can be made to look bad on paper" and "don't have tournie wins" category.

 

[Dpete]

Shouldn't this apply to most characters that people say should be moved higher? Not that many have won tourneys that I can find (Though I haven't located a compilation of who's won tournies and seem to have misplaced the thread that was working on doing that for the weeklies) so it seems like all the lower end characters fall into the "can be made to look bad on paper" and "don't have tournie wins" category.

Sadly, this is often the way it works.

What I hate is when people use tournament results to justify calling a character bad, yet they still rate characters like Toon Link, Zelda, and Diddy high despite their lackluster tourney outings.

 

[Gindler]

I will say that yoshi doesn't have the best match ups.
He has a good advantage on olimar, and some snake mains actually say that yoshi is a bad matchup for snake (not many of those) but other than that he about breaks even with most everyone, except zelda she just destroys him for some reason.

Yoshi's also decent in most fields, he's pretty fast, he's actually quite heavy, he has some hard hitting attacks, his air speen is INSANE. But yeah, the dragonic reverse is insanely hard to get down (usually have to turn tap jump on for it to be somewhat easy but that screws up combos and recovery)

Still yoshi isn't all that bad and he's crazy fun to play as.

 

[missingnomaster]

"breaks even with mostly everyone" definitely not. It's a hard matchup against most characters, just some less than others. Also, Falco when played right seems to destroy Yoshi more than anything else to me.

 

[Gindler]

I've gotten pretty good against falco's. Learned how to time the Fair to spike their side B recovery (which screws them over since their fire "fox" SUCKS), zelda though has that thunder kick that when a good zelda player is playing you can hit you with it alot. So i still give zelda the worst matchup award. Everyone else though I'd still think is a halfway decent matchup (just use yoshi's Uair and you'll be fine =P) and no I'm not a noob I've played a fair amount of brawl and played against a good player for every character except a fellow yoshi and a jigglypuff.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Sadly, this is often the way it works.

What I hate is when people use tournament results to justify calling a character bad, yet they still rate characters like Toon Link, Zelda, and Diddy high despite their lackluster tourney outings.

Remember I pointed out two issues, Yoshi both doesn't look good and paper and has poor tournament performance thus he has nothing to go on. You can't say that people just aren't using him properly to justify a higher tier placement.


On the other hand, Toon Link Zelda and diddy all look good on paper, in spite of poor showings. Thus people can justify a higher placement then tournament rankings would suggest due to simply, people not playing them correctly.

 

[Blistering Speed]

Olimar, Falco, Marth and ROB will all knock Snake and Meta off there throne!! Not really but they all have the potential and yes Olimar is meant to be in there.