Dpete
Carnifex
Fair enough. But surely someone out of the TLink, Zelda, and Diddy communities has to be using them right?
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Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)
- Thread starter AlphaZealot
- Start date
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Gindler
Smash Champion
I know a few people who use Tlink, Zelda, and diddy right. But I know zelda gets wrecked by ness (ness of all people) so that brings her down in my book, I don't know why Tlink and diddy aren't doing too hot thought I think maybe MK is a problem for them and we all know how many MKs are out there (snakes too)
But...
Ganondorf, Jigglypuff, Captain Falcon, etc.
All the other low tiers who also can be made to look horrible on paper -- what justifies Yoshi going below them that requires that he demonstrate tourney capability, when they lack it and look awful on theory too? Why aren't you presenting this argument to everyone who wants to say X shouldn't be low/bottom tier?
¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯
Smash Legend
R u saying that yoshi is below CF???? Cuz NO ONE thinks that!
It doesn't materially change my point in any way: The other low/bottom tier characters all look bad on paper (And depending on how you cherry pick your points, can be made to look worse than Yoshi just as he can be made to look worse than them) and largely have poor tournament results. Why is this "Show me in the tournaments" only being applied to a discussion for moving Yoshi up?
MysticKenji
Smash Master
Uh, no.
It's applied to everyone.
It's applied to everyone.
Oh good, then we may as well stop trying to sort out the bottom 1/3rd or so of the tier list and concentrate just on the characters that are actually placing.
Looking at it like that, I realize we should also stop worrying about the middle 1/3rd as they're mostly theorycrafting and lack the tournament results to place accurately as well.
So...top 10 or so characters, anyone?
¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯
Smash Legend
Ya, like if snake wuz doin bad in tourneys he wouldn't be top tier...
*edit* this thread is close to 10,000 posts, nice job guys, we should pass the mark 2moro or tha day afta
Nigerian Star Storm
Smash Ace
They are, in fact judging by the latest list Ankoku's about to put out, it appears Zelda and Diddy actually made quite a leap from like D rank to the back of C.Fair enough. But surely someone out of the TLink, Zelda, and Diddy communities has to be using them right?
Dpete
Carnifex
Well then, looks like all my arguments lose. Sad face. Toon Link and Pikachu are sucking it up enough to make up for that though
. Surely they should rise in the rankings soon.
Concerning Yoshi:
The fluffy dino has a few things in his way to becoming a usable character. Certainly he is not given as much credit as he deserves, but here's a quick breakdown of his pros and cons, and some reasoning behind them.
Pros
- Fast on the ground (This is very true. His tilts and jab come out almost instantly, and his running speed is faster than Toon Link's.)
- Great aerial game (Each aerial has a specific use, whether it's the best damage-racking aerial in the game, a combo breaker, a chaining/WOP move, a spike, or a KO move.)
- Best aerial speed (Not necessarily how long it takes for moves to come out, but he moves through the air at the fastest speed in the game.)
- Spammable projectile (Slower characters on the ground or air and bigger targets have many problems with the eggs, and it can also be used to rack up damage while edgeguarding.
- SA frames on second jumps (This makes it a lot harder to edgeguard Yoshi, not to mention that lack of DJC is actually a buff considering Brawl's physics.)
Cons
- Crappy shield (It can't be jumped out of, but really, that doesn't bother Yoshi as much as how long it takes to attack out of his shield on the ground. This makes him easily pressured and limits his defense game.)
- Somewhat of a big target (This makes for a poor size/weight ratio, since Yoshi can't tank as well as he could in previous games.)
- Recovery relies heavily on second jump (This isn't that big of a problem unless Yoshi's below the stage... if he's level or higher, then he can recover with egg throw. Also note that Yoshi is extremely sucseptible to footstools. In most situations, however, Yoshi's recovery is almost impossible to edgeguard.)
Matchups
I put these under neither pros nor cons, considering that Yoshi's matchups are commonly considered to be crap, even though he can actually do well against some higher tiered characters. For example, he has a lot less of a disadvantage to Snake than most other "established low tier" characters, and he's a good counter to Olimar. (Jury's out on whether he's good or bad against Marth... both characters will say they win.) However, he falls against MK and G-Dub just as much as most other characters, and projectile spams (aka Falco) can hurt him badly due to his slow roll. Against some projectiles, of course, he can spam right back, and his aerials often go through them, but it's hit or miss against spams for Yoshi. He does, however, beat most low/bottom/lower mid characters pretty easily.
Tournament Standings
Sure, I could go on about how "nobody likes Yoshi" and "he's not popular enough", and while that's true to an extent, he should at least have SOME tournament standings. If he wants to be considered better, he should start placing better.
Conclusion
Yoshi is certainly a character with a number of misconceptions, but he does have enough blatant weaknesses to keep him from advancing too much. It does seem like he's better than characters like Captain Falcon and Jiggz who have placed better than him, but until people see some hard facts, they won't be placing him anywhere higher than low.
The fluffy dino has a few things in his way to becoming a usable character. Certainly he is not given as much credit as he deserves, but here's a quick breakdown of his pros and cons, and some reasoning behind them.
Pros
- Fast on the ground (This is very true. His tilts and jab come out almost instantly, and his running speed is faster than Toon Link's.)
- Great aerial game (Each aerial has a specific use, whether it's the best damage-racking aerial in the game, a combo breaker, a chaining/WOP move, a spike, or a KO move.)
- Best aerial speed (Not necessarily how long it takes for moves to come out, but he moves through the air at the fastest speed in the game.)
- Spammable projectile (Slower characters on the ground or air and bigger targets have many problems with the eggs, and it can also be used to rack up damage while edgeguarding.
- SA frames on second jumps (This makes it a lot harder to edgeguard Yoshi, not to mention that lack of DJC is actually a buff considering Brawl's physics.)
Cons
- Crappy shield (It can't be jumped out of, but really, that doesn't bother Yoshi as much as how long it takes to attack out of his shield on the ground. This makes him easily pressured and limits his defense game.)
- Somewhat of a big target (This makes for a poor size/weight ratio, since Yoshi can't tank as well as he could in previous games.)
- Recovery relies heavily on second jump (This isn't that big of a problem unless Yoshi's below the stage... if he's level or higher, then he can recover with egg throw. Also note that Yoshi is extremely sucseptible to footstools. In most situations, however, Yoshi's recovery is almost impossible to edgeguard.)
Matchups
I put these under neither pros nor cons, considering that Yoshi's matchups are commonly considered to be crap, even though he can actually do well against some higher tiered characters. For example, he has a lot less of a disadvantage to Snake than most other "established low tier" characters, and he's a good counter to Olimar. (Jury's out on whether he's good or bad against Marth... both characters will say they win.) However, he falls against MK and G-Dub just as much as most other characters, and projectile spams (aka Falco) can hurt him badly due to his slow roll. Against some projectiles, of course, he can spam right back, and his aerials often go through them, but it's hit or miss against spams for Yoshi. He does, however, beat most low/bottom/lower mid characters pretty easily.
Tournament Standings
Sure, I could go on about how "nobody likes Yoshi" and "he's not popular enough", and while that's true to an extent, he should at least have SOME tournament standings. If he wants to be considered better, he should start placing better.
Conclusion
Yoshi is certainly a character with a number of misconceptions, but he does have enough blatant weaknesses to keep him from advancing too much. It does seem like he's better than characters like Captain Falcon and Jiggz who have placed better than him, but until people see some hard facts, they won't be placing him anywhere higher than low.
choknater
Smash Obsessed
IMO the roster is too large for characters to be ranked 1-37/39. I know Yoshi is decent, but why does everyone want to prove he is able to defeat or be more viable than so-and-so character?
It's pretty silly. Tiers are exactly what they are. Ranks. Levels. There aren't 30+ tiers with every character better or worse than another. Some rank just about the same. Y'all shouldn't be getting too stressed over a single character just to prove its worth.
There are two things that I think hold true at this point:
- Brawl is young
- The roster is large
So the only REALLY clear thing we have is which characters have ALREADY proven themselves, which have shown in Ankoku's list, AND the ever-so-inaccurate matchup chart.
Snake, MK, GW, Rob, DDD, Falco (Lucario to a degree.)
Domination across the board.
Besides those top ones... *shrug* we can't really find something REALLY solid until every character is studied more.
In Brawl's life span so far, we have seen clearly where the top 6 or so characters stand. I believe it is best to work our way down from there instead of proving which low/mid character is better than which low/mid character.
It's pretty silly. Tiers are exactly what they are. Ranks. Levels. There aren't 30+ tiers with every character better or worse than another. Some rank just about the same. Y'all shouldn't be getting too stressed over a single character just to prove its worth.
There are two things that I think hold true at this point:
- Brawl is young
- The roster is large
So the only REALLY clear thing we have is which characters have ALREADY proven themselves, which have shown in Ankoku's list, AND the ever-so-inaccurate matchup chart.
Snake, MK, GW, Rob, DDD, Falco (Lucario to a degree.)
Domination across the board.
Besides those top ones... *shrug* we can't really find something REALLY solid until every character is studied more.
In Brawl's life span so far, we have seen clearly where the top 6 or so characters stand. I believe it is best to work our way down from there instead of proving which low/mid character is better than which low/mid character.
RegalBuster
Smash Lord
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Sonic is definetly a low tier character.
Blistering Speed
Smash Champion
And Marth....
choknater
Smash Obsessed
Oh yeah lol.
stoopdklutz
Smash Journeyman
Sonic isn't Low Tier, lower end of mid at best.
Blistering Speed
Smash Champion
So on average, that would make him low tier. How do you people think?! Is it just a carnival monkey going round and round in your head in a clown car with doo doo de di de dee dee doo daa playing?
stoopdklutz
Smash Journeyman
I just think that Sonic doesn't deserve bottom tier. Sonics can be annoying, he is pretty good at capitalizing on mistakes, he is good at pressuring and causing you to make mistakes, and since not many people play him at tournaments, or friendlies for that matter, he has that surprise factor.
Blistering Speed
Smash Champion
Right, which is why we both said low. Low =/= bottom. True, he has a few good points, decent pressure, unpredictability and recovery, but that's about it. His abysmal priority and trouble killing are of course, whilst stated often, very big problems. Compare Sonic to the people you would be putting him over and you'll realise low is where he belongs.
Also do not use the surprise factor as an argument in tier discussion, as it is only temporary until the metagame evolves.
Yoshi Kirishima
Smash Lord
I agree with choknator actually, I think that it's actually a better idea to just concentrate on the ranking of those popular characters which have attended many tournies and that we know more about, then concentrate on the others as we learn more about them.
Oh, I see. But the unexperienced/non competitive/etc. players wouldn't be counted anyways, since they're not going to be in the top 8 or whatever is high enough to count points in Ankoku's rankings list, and if they are then they are good enough, right? If im missing something please just tell me
hillbillyhick
Smash Cadet
The popularity of a character is troublesome to create a correct tier, averaging this would solve it. But on the other hand it might just make tiers even less accurate, because (hypothetically) noobs could have a tendency to play with snake. Snake would then be lower on the tier list. I’m not in favour of averaging it, but I'm not against it too. You can’t know what effect it will have, will it make tier lists more accurate or not, so why do it or why not do it.
WolfCypher
Smash Lord
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Mr. Game & Watch? The Hell...?!
Anyway, I never saw Lucario as top tier (though you didn't SAY top tier, so I shouldn't assume things, but hear me out, this has a point) but if it turns out Lucario is top or high tier, I just want to go on the record now and say I've been playing Lucario since day 1, so its ranking had no affect on me. Bad enough people think I play MK cause he's top tier. Bad enough when everyone just KNEW Wolf & Pit would be top tier and people accused me of playing them for that reason.
Tim_The_Enchanter
Smash Ace
I always thought tiers were established, not based on the possibility and winability (i know that's not a word) of a character, but a combination of each character's stats and tourney results. For example, even if Taj won lots of Melee tournies as Mewtwo, Mewtwo wouldn't become top tier because it doesn't have as high of a playability as Falco or Fox. I could be wrong, but that's what I always thought.
@WolfCypher: G&W is definitely top tier, he owns most characters and is semi-easy to learn. The only characters I have trouble beating are MK and Snake.
@WolfCypher: G&W is definitely top tier, he owns most characters and is semi-easy to learn. The only characters I have trouble beating are MK and Snake.
hillbillyhick
Smash Cadet
I hope it's not done in the way you thought, because stats are debatable and it would make tiers very subjective. I think the way they're making tiers by using tournament results is good enough. The best way would cost too much time, money and people.
Nigerian Star Storm
Smash Ace
Probably so for Fox, but lolno at Falco.
_Phloat_
Smash Champion
Wolf has shown himself to be much to shallow to be higher than Falco. Although I haven't checked up on him in about a week, if nothing huge has been discovered he just lacks the ability to "change it up" that Falco has...
Nigerian Star Storm
Smash Ace
Tiers are already established at a game's release. Tier lists are meant to try and figure out exactly what they are.
BBQ°
Smash Champion
I think Yoshi is underestimated. Can anyone give me some facts about Yoshi and why he is so bad (other than bad match-ups)? He's got very good aerials, and half of them auto-cancel upon landing. The only problem I've had with Yoshi is his recovery, but I haven't had too much trouble with it. Comments anyone?
Dpete
Carnifex
Go read this post. It breaks it down very well.
WolfCypher
Smash Lord
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I dunno who to believe anymore. All the Wolf mainers say Wolf is high-top, all the G&W mainers say G&W is high-top, all the Pit mainers say Pit is high-top...obviously if you main and favor a certain character, of course in your words that character should rank very highly.
THEN ON THE OTHER HAND, if I were to listen to anyone on the subject of how a character ranks, I'd rather listen to a Wolf mainer on their opinion of Wolf, a G&W mainer on their opinion of G&W, a Pit mainer on their opinion of Pit, than a Diddy Kong mainer on their opinion on Ike. At least you know that if that Wolf mainer uses Wolf, she or he actually knows what they're talking about!
I guess I'll post my personal, not official, read this before thinking otherwise tierlist.
Top
Snake
Meta Knight
Marth
R.O.B.
High
Falco
Fox
Pit
Toon Link
Wolf
Olimar
Wario
Diddy Kong
Lucas
Ness
Middle
Zelda
Mario
Kirby
Ike
King Dedede
Mr. Game & Watch
Ice Climbers
Peach
Lucario
Sheik
Luigi
Pikachu
Bowser
Yoshi
Donkey Kong
Zero Suit Samus
Pokémon Trainer
Low
Sonic
Samus
Jigglypuff
Link
Bottom
Ganondorf
Captain Falcon
I posted this ONLY so you know what kind of idea I myself have from my experiences with these characters (both playing with them, against them, and watching their match-ups). I don't expect anyone to agree with this.
THEN ON THE OTHER HAND, if I were to listen to anyone on the subject of how a character ranks, I'd rather listen to a Wolf mainer on their opinion of Wolf, a G&W mainer on their opinion of G&W, a Pit mainer on their opinion of Pit, than a Diddy Kong mainer on their opinion on Ike. At least you know that if that Wolf mainer uses Wolf, she or he actually knows what they're talking about!
I guess I'll post my personal, not official, read this before thinking otherwise tierlist.
Top
Snake
Meta Knight
Marth
R.O.B.
High
Falco
Fox
Pit
Toon Link
Wolf
Olimar
Wario
Diddy Kong
Lucas
Ness
Middle
Zelda
Mario
Kirby
Ike
King Dedede
Mr. Game & Watch
Ice Climbers
Peach
Lucario
Sheik
Luigi
Pikachu
Bowser
Yoshi
Donkey Kong
Zero Suit Samus
Pokémon Trainer
Low
Sonic
Samus
Jigglypuff
Link
Bottom
Ganondorf
Captain Falcon
I posted this ONLY so you know what kind of idea I myself have from my experiences with these characters (both playing with them, against them, and watching their match-ups). I don't expect anyone to agree with this.
Emblem Lord
The Legendary Lord
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Marth is not top tier.
Side note: **** my new sig is awesome. Subtle yet powerful.
Side note: **** my new sig is awesome. Subtle yet powerful.
Banjodorf
Dynamic Duo
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( I dont main G&W anymore, need to change my location) However, I will say that he is NOT mid tier, I dont know how much you've used him or played against him, but he IS high/top.
Also, Dedede is definitely high, given his tourney results (G&W's too)
And Ganon is not bottom. Trust me. He may look slow, but looks are deceiving.
Nigerian Star Storm
Smash Ace
Yeah....If you're not going to use a Tier list and make it in the proper ways using the proper data......I suggest you not post it at all. Also, Characters in Bold are the ones you got wrong, and the ones I put LOL next to are the ones you got REALLY wrong >_>.
kittycat552
Smash Rookie
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Question
I am new to this whole smashboards thing and I was wondering are there many pro zelda players. I just havent seen very many zelda players on wifi. Plus I am not very good with zelda ( I can beat level 9 cpus )
I am new to this whole smashboards thing and I was wondering are there many pro zelda players. I just havent seen very many zelda players on wifi. Plus I am not very good with zelda ( I can beat level 9 cpus )
Tim_The_Enchanter
Smash Ace
Wow dude, what is with you and G&W? I'm sure my G&W could own your Wolf. Also, DK is my other main and he destroys plenty of characters (especially Snake). Ganon is definately top of low tier or mid tier. D3 is high tier, PT is higher up on mid, ZSS is higher up on mid too, in what dimension is ROB top tier????? Dude, think before you post.
WolfCypher
Smash Lord
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I was obviously expecting negative criticism after posting my tier list idea, but I was at least hoping for something other than flaming and childish remarks. At least ganondorf4ever and to a lesser extent Nigerian Star Storm explained why they disagree or why I'm wrong.
@Tim: I have nothing against G&W. You make it sound like I'm out to get him. I told everyone going in that this tierlist was from all of MY personal experiences. If I still explain my actions, and people still go in ready to attack, well then what else can I do? I guess it always easier to bash than to disagree and explain why I'm wrong. But I was ready for that anyway.
@Tim: I have nothing against G&W. You make it sound like I'm out to get him. I told everyone going in that this tierlist was from all of MY personal experiences. If I still explain my actions, and people still go in ready to attack, well then what else can I do? I guess it always easier to bash than to disagree and explain why I'm wrong. But I was ready for that anyway.
Blistering Speed
Smash Champion
Sorry that's inaccurate basically everywhere, but as you said, it's from your personal experience, so it's not ever going to be 100%
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