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Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)

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There really are some characters that take more time to learn than others, it's true... no offense to NSS and any other MK mains, but he's pretty easy to pick up, as are Ike and Pit. Pit and MK at least have a certain amount of skill attached at least... Ike's just an idiot.
I acknowledge MK is a pretty easy character to learn (I've actually been beaten once with someone whose played MK signifigantly less than me once before, granted it only happened once out of like next to a few hundreds matches), but I just got tired of people using the argument over and over again and slowly giving out less better information and facts to back up their arguments.


Also no..... just no. Ike 1v1 is actually very hard to use without getting 3 stocked, and even then he's not that good at all.. I'll give you Pit though.
 

Kiwikomix

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Really, you couldn't pick up and play Ike? I remember the first time I used him, I killed my friend's Marth in literally three seconds. Then I thought "Oh, this guy must be good, maybe I'll use him more". And when I did I realized how awful he was.
And a character's ability to be played right away should have no effect on how good a character he is IMO. That's a ridiculous argument and whoever uses it should be shot.
 

adumbrodeus

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Also no..... just no. Ike 1v1 is actually very hard to use without getting 3 stocked, and even then he's not that good at all.. I'll give you Pit though.
Ike is easy to use, he just isn't a particularly good character. His abilities are quite one-dimensional and don't lend themselves to complex strategies and ATs.

Easy to use doesn't mean good.

Really, you couldn't pick up and play Ike? I remember the first time I used him, I killed my friend's Marth in literally three seconds. Then I thought "Oh, this guy must be good, maybe I'll use him more". And when I did I realized how awful he was.
And a character's ability to be played right away should have no effect on how good a character he is IMO. That's a ridiculous argument and whoever uses it should be shot.
It was a misunderstanding, he thought you meant easy to play in terms of easy to play at a competitive level.
 

kynelius

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to make things easier on others

ok, there has been much discussion involving pretty much every character. i am curious, has this discussion/flamewar made a somewhat valid tierlist? given the facts and current strategies and potential and all that stuff, what is the tier list for brawl? it doesnt need to be accurate, just give a general consensus of the tiers. i know no one wants their main to be bottom tier, but the differences arent that big and SOMEONE has to be bottom tier.
 

BBQ°

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Can you ask any DK mainers if they have a video? I am skeptical.
I've not familiarized myself with the DK community, I just really like playing as DK because he's really fun, and I've educated myself about him through playing. I've referred to the DK character discussion thread to help answer some questions, though. You can always go to the thread that has a list of moves with SA frames if you can't find anything. http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=163775
Just scroll down a little and you'll see DK.

Donkey Kong doesn't float very well and most of the time your opponent is going to be ready for an edgeguard so you usually have to flying kong it.
He's not the floatiest compared to most characters, but Brawl's engine makes it really easy to float (DI in the air). I'm pretty sure there's a technique that if your opponent forces you to flying kong (what's the name? ), you can make it so you land without falling on your back. Again, you might have to find a video for this one, but I'm sure I've done this before and I'm sure I've heard someone do it.

if he Fairs its too slow and he gets hit first, if he whiffs it he drops more.
Dair again little range
He has little options.
Fair is probably the worst option, but if you learn the timing and you are high enough in the air to avoid risk, it's very rewarding. But like all heavy characters, you have to know timing for all slow moves or else you're screwed.
Dair is surprisingly easy to hit with, just make sure you don't fastfall while doing it. His third meteor smash is his forward-b. I've never hit anyone with it myself, but it doesn't move you downwards when you do it (sort of like Fox's shine in the air). So you can literally be off the stage and threaten the edgeguarder with multiple forward-b's in a row.

I haven't tried myself, but it's possible to do an uncharged-turn-around punch in midair to turn your direction and still keep your momentum of going towards the stage, so you can be actively ready to bring out a wall of back-airs to protect yourself from getting hit.

Yes that could somewhat work but again then you have getting back on stage from that ledge, what methods does DK have to get back onto the stage while grabbing the ledge?
I've seen DK users prefer getting back onto the stage rather than the ledge.
This is what I found on this thread http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=141591

"There is a recovery trick to his upB, depending on when you hit the ground after the active frames. There's an ok size window after the active frames where landing gives almost (if not) instant recovery. However, if you land after this window the recover is HORRIFIC as you always fall n your monkey butt and have to physically pick yourself up. This may have been in Melee, IDK, but the recovery of landing after that window is so bad it’s definitely noticeable now."

This is worded pretty strangely, but I think it's saying there's certain frame window where you can land after his up-b and not have that awful landing lag. I've done it before, but my up-b was hitting my opponent before I landed. I'm not sure if I saved the replay of that one.

It depends on the projectile, they don't smack away lasers but they can break Link's arrows and boomerang.
Nor can he exactly rely on hitting the projectiles constantly since they'll usually be masking a different attack behind them.
Yeah it doesn't block lasers, but who in their right mind would pick DK vs Falco or Pit? You're right in this sense of argument, but huge-slow-hitbox DK shouldn't go up against a laser-campy character. I haven't attempted this yet, but maybe grounded up-b is a viable way to approach campy players, sort of like Luigi's spin thing(down-b).
 

ShadowLink84

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It's listed in the SA frame thread as having SA frames...anybody who knows anything about DK knows his Up-B has SA frames...why don't you just test it out for yourself?
Um not true, considering Infinite jumping was considered new and exciting when it was found months ago.

He's not the floatiest compared to most characters, but Brawl's engine makes it really easy to float (DI in the air). I'm pretty sure there's a technique that if your opponent forces you to flying kong (what's the name? ), you can make it so you land without falling on your back. Again, you might have to find a video for this one, but I'm sure I've done this before and I'm sure I've heard someone do it.
Yes I know the technique, its similar to Bowser ^B, he has no lag as soon as the animation for his flying Kong ends. however because he really cannot spare much height its why I say he is somewhat vulnerable, snce even if he does land laglessly your opponent can usually anticipate your landing point (depending on where you are coming from.

he can recover but its what he can do while recovering is what im picking at, he is good but compared to Pit, Snake, ROB, Sonic, he doens't have as many options for getting back on the stage. Even if he grabs the ledge I don't believe he has a great many means of getting back on the stage from the ledge.

Fair is probably the worst option, but if you learn the timing and you are high enough in the air to avoid risk, it's very rewarding. But like all heavy characters, you have to know timing for all slow moves or else you're screwed.
Of course, but I amt hiking more of DK gets knocked away and is trying to get back with his face forward. if he turns around with a donkey Punch (which leaves him vulnerable he can use his Bair, but typically he usually uses his double jump and doesn't have the time to really set up such a thing.

Yeah Fair is the worst granted oyu can space it properly but the lag before and after the attack is the main reason it sucks. T_T
Dair is surprisingly easy to hit with, just make sure you don't fastfall while doing it. His third meteor smash is his forward-b. I've never hit anyone with it myself, but it doesn't move you downwards when you do it (sort of like Fox's shine in the air). So you can literally be off the stage and threaten the edgeguarder with multiple forward-b's in a row.
Really? I've never really found it to be much of a threat. When I use Sonic, ike, Pit,Link I don't really feel threatened if he slows himself with forward B, mainly since I know that I don't really have to jump out and edgen guard him, I can simply either spam projectiles, or wait for him to begin his flying Kong since i can predict his movement much more easily.

I don't really like the idea of a DK using the Dair to protect himself mainly because the hitbox isn't very large and is vulnerable fmr the sides (not too sure on that though)
I

I haven't tried myself, but it's possible to do an uncharged-turn-around punch in midair to turn your direction and still keep your momentum of going towards the stage, so you can be actively ready to bring out a wall of back-airs to protect yourself from getting hit.
i've seen it happen but it seems only reliable when you are a it away from the stage since your opponent cannot do much and I kinda dislike the idea of placing myself more horizontally with the stage. I can see it being used but not as a viable means of recovering.
 

BBQ°

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I don't believe he has a great many means of getting back on the stage from the ledge.
This looked interesting
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=173686

It's a fact that DK's recovery sucks. I don't know if my opponent's don't know how to edgeguard properly or what, but I've never had a problem up-b-ing to sweetspot, or to simply land far away enough for not getting severely punished. I don't understand why you don't think his Up-b-no-lag technique is not worth it. Yes, his side-b isn't that threatening to projectiles, but it can stop aerial approachers. But like I said, I haven't had problems with simply Up-b-ing to the stage.
 

Helios42

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Personally, I'm of the opinion that tiers don't exist in brawl. Melee was a broken game, where mewtwo really had no chance of beating fox. But, never fear, for brawl is here. Brawl has made everyone good. Just look at this thread. 652 pages of people arguing over the tiers. I don't have the time to go through all of them, but, I think I can safely say, every character has been defended by someone who is good with that character. I think the reason people are having a hard time settling on a tier is that they DON'T EXIST. Think about it. There are people who use DK and win a lot. There are people who use Jigglypuff, and are good (my friend mains jiggs, and is skillful with it). If you take the time to learn the ins and outs of characters, you can make them good. I scoff at the tournament tier list. All it shows is who is used more, not who is best. Yes, I hear you tourney tards screaming that tiers must exist, but, I think your fooling yourself. I believe that you guys just feel a desire to catagorize everything. I think tiers in brawl are a bunch of rubbish, and I refuse to accept them. Brawl has finally achieved what Super Smash Bros. is all about; choosing a character because he/she is your favorite character, not because of who wins more tournaments.
 

SaxDude93

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Personally, I'm of the opinion that tiers don't exist in brawl. Melee was a broken game, where mewtwo really had no chance of beating fox. But, never fear, for brawl is here. Brawl has made everyone good. Just look at this thread. 652 pages of people arguing over the tiers. I don't have the time to go through all of them, but, I think I can safely say, every character has been defended by someone who is good with that character. I think the reason people are having a hard time settling on a tier is that they DON'T EXIST. Think about it. There are people who use DK and win a lot. There are people who use Jigglypuff, and are good (my friend mains jiggs, and is skillful with it). If you take the time to learn the ins and outs of characters, you can make them good. I scoff at the tournament tier list. All it shows is who is used more, not who is best. Yes, I hear you tourney tards screaming that tiers must exist, but, I think your fooling yourself. I believe that you guys just feel a desire to catagorize everything. I think tiers in brawl are a bunch of rubbish, and I refuse to accept them. Brawl has finally achieved what Super Smash Bros. is all about; choosing a character because he/she is your favorite character, not because of who wins more tournaments.
Why are Snake and MK winning every tourney and why has Falcon won none?
 

Adapt

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Im tired of these mother ****ing snakes in this mother ****ing game.

-Samuel L Jackson.
I lolled



I have never found DK's recovery to be in any way bad horizontally, Vertical is where a DK gets killed. I've seen more than a few up-Bs just not make it high enough to hit the ledge
 

ShadowLink84

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It can be done but how effective can it be? No one really goes to pursue a Dk thats on the ledge, they can simply wait him out or bait him.

QUOTE=BBQ°;4746372]
It's a fact that DK's recovery sucks. I don't know if my opponent's don't know how to edgeguard properly or what, but I've never had a problem up-b-ing to sweetspot, or to simply land far away enough for not getting severely punished. I don't understand why you don't think his Up-b-no-lag technique is not worth it. Yes, his side-b isn't that threatening to projectiles, but it can stop aerial approachers. But like I said, I haven't had problems with simply Up-b-ing to the stage.[/QUOTE]

Sweetspotting isn't the issue, what I am saying is what options that DK has afte rhe sweetspots the ledge.

I am not saying that the lagless ^B isn't worth it, but rather in order for him to really put it to use he has a bit of a strict requirement. I don't believe he can go above shorthop height otherwise when he hits the ground he falls on his back. Its better for him to go for the ledge rather than risk landing too close to the opponent (something he doesn't want happening with fast characters like Sonic, Fox, MK, or characters with quick DAC's sch as Wolf, Snake and Link.

Least thats what I do anyway.
Yeah his side B can stop aerial approaches but you're better off with ^B since I think it has good priority to stop most aerial approaches.
 

BBQ°

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It can be done but how effective can it be? No one really goes to pursue a Dk thats on the ledge, they can simply wait him out or bait him.
Well, that's true, but it's true to all characters. I think there is a thread explaining why all the ledge-get-up options are punishable. What first came to my mind ,though, is to get up normally, and when your opponent approaches, use the DK Punch and SA frames to stop them, but that's really situational and would really only work one time before your opponent would catch on.


I am not saying that the lagless ^B isn't worth it, but rather in order for him to really put it to use he has a bit of a strict requirement. I don't believe he can go above shorthop height otherwise when he hits the ground he falls on his back. Its better for him to go for the ledge rather than risk landing too close to the opponent (something he doesn't want happening with fast characters like Sonic, Fox, MK, or characters with quick DAC's sch as Wolf, Snake and Link.
I guess then it would have to be a necessity to learn for DK mains then. In Melee, Falco's SHL wasn't easy but once you got the timing, it was super rewarding. It's the same with DK, just get the timing.

but you're better off with ^B since I think it has good priority to stop most aerial approaches.
So with that statement, is this argument about his edge game or his problem with him being edgeguarded?
 

pidgey14

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Well, it's just that, him being able to WD in Brawl isn't really going to help him much. Plus, even though I haven't seen the video, I doubt it that effective to use in a fight.
Well how can you judge something without watching it then? Is it because it is Yoshi? Also the way I see the "him" is like Yoshi's wave dash is useless but if it was a different character it would be useful.

Seriously, I am getting fed up with ignorant people. Please stop ignoring us.
 
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=Helios42;4746411]*Tires don exits rabble rabble*
Please learn what Tiers are then come back here. Not to mention, you think Brawl is more balanced than Melee, which is a double whammy. Please, you are not special. This argument has been made multiple times, you are no different. Stop posting this crap in this topic if you are not going to contribute to the discussion. I suggest you lurk moe, learn why you're wrong, then if you're still interested, come back here. We're tired of the same ignorant and misinformed people spouting the smae nonsense every single page.
 

Kaizo

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Yonder

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Hey guys, Just curious, the whole tier list whats it supposed to mean? The higher the character is the better they do in tourneys/easier to get good with/better?

Ive never really thought about it, I always just thought of it as favourite characters to play that "seem" to be better.

I tried:

Top tier:
Snake
Meta Knight

High Tier:
Falco (I'd say slightly lower)
Zelda (She good, but not THIS good, she should be around the high part of the mid tier)
GW ( DEFINATELY third best in the game, right under Snake and Meta Knight, he should be either top of th high tier, or bottom of the top tier)
Marth
King Dedede
R.O.B. ( Probably just one plac higher, he recovery does own, and he can rack up damage fairly well)

Upper-Mid Tier:
Pit
Olimar (Curse his garbage recovery! Probably two places lower)
Wolf
Lucario
Wario ( His unpredictable playstyle and awesome air game, especially his u-air, should earn him somewhere in high tier)
Pikachu (He's better than he was in Melee, and he has a ton of good qualities, he should be also in high tier)

Lower- Mid:

Peach
Fox (Fox seems underated, I think he should be high mid tier, he's quite a good character)
Toon Link (Despite my hate for this character, he should be high tier for sure.)
Lucas
Ness
Kirby

Low Tier:

Diddy Kong (He's fast, somewhat powerful, and... yeah, let's just say that he's upper mid tier)
Donkey Kong (Nope, he has power, speed, alot of awesome qualities... except for his vertical recovery, he's in the high tier somewhere)
ZSS
Ike
Fox (Fox is listed twice...)
Mario (He's a rounded character and can handle almost any situation, he really should be in the mid tier)
Luigi (Wha?... NO NO NO. His aerial speed, power, recovery. He's a whole new great character, with most of his problems gone from Melee. The green man deserves respect, and shall be high mid or low high.)
Bowser (He's also inproved too, I'd say a little bit higher in the low tier, possibly mid tier maybe)

Bottom Tier:

Ganondorf
Samus
Link
Yoshi
Jigglypuff
Captain Falcon
My comments are in brackets. Hopefully this tier list isn't based off of those horrid ,biased, popularity contest tourney results? Look at Toon Link, Luigi, and Diddy in tourneys. They are great characters, yet they are all low tier in tourney results. It's dissapointing.
 

da K.I.D.

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Personally, I'm of the opinion that tiers don't exist in brawl. Melee was a broken game, where mewtwo really had no chance of beating fox. But, never fear, for brawl is here. Brawl has made everyone good. Just look at this thread. 652 pages of people arguing over the tiers. I don't have the time to go through all of them, but, I think I can safely say, every character has been defended by someone who is good with that character. I think the reason people are having a hard time settling on a tier is that they DON'T EXIST. Think about it. There are people who use DK and win a lot. There are people who use Jigglypuff, and are good (my friend mains jiggs, and is skillful with it). If you take the time to learn the ins and outs of characters, you can make them good. I scoff at the tournament tier list. All it shows is who is used more, not who is best. Yes, I hear you tourney tards screaming that tiers must exist, but, I think your fooling yourself. I believe that you guys just feel a desire to catagorize everything. I think tiers in brawl are a bunch of rubbish, and I refuse to accept them. Brawl has finally achieved what Super Smash Bros. is all about; choosing a character because he/she is your favorite character, not because of who wins more tournaments.
wow.... im so stunned, i dont know how to respond to this.....
this is the most flameless thing i can say.

sonic is my main, I have played MK one time and i have played snake 2 times in all the time brawl has been out. but i watch ppl. now if youcan beat my snake with PT, assuming from your pics that you main PT, i will concede that tiers dont exist. however i firmly believe that i can beat your PT, and not only that, but i can do it using only snakedashing, f-tilt, u-tilt, d-throw, u-air, and b-air,( remember, i play a sucky snake, good snakes can do it with less moves than that) now why can snake win with so few moves? because he is broken, and at this point the best character in the game.

every fighting game has a list of characters from best to worst. if you dont believe me, google it, it wont be hard to find. guilty gear, soulcalibur, street fighter, marvel vs capcom1 and 2, capcom vs. snk2, dude, even puzzle fighter has a tier list. if there is any difference between the characters, it is only natural that some characters differences make them better than others.

also, we are not arguing over the actual list, we are arguing about specific placings, everyone already knows that snake, MK and maim and watch are the best in the game, and that CF, ganon and JP are the worst in the game. if you dont believe that. get a three man team of the first 3 chars, and a team of the other 3 chars adn see who would win. if you cant see the natural advantages that chars have over other chars., you are a very blind man.
 

Browny

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now why can snake win with so few moves? because he is broken, and at this point the best character in the game.
snake isnt broken, hes just the most represented in tourneys, and he kicks ***. G&W can win with 2 moves, turtle + dsmash.
 

Onxy

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Yeah, Snake isn't broken, and Pit isn't an annoying snob either.
 

Shy Guy 86

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Snake is broken, his physical moves are waaaaaay to strong, the AAA almost does 15% who only Ike and possibly Lucario can.

Snake's other moves are also good. and his recovery is good for a heavyweight, the only flaws of him the he is so vulnerable to chaingrabs and spiks

Pit's arrow spam isn't very hard to avoid to me I just use Falco/Wolf's reflector when he does them and the down B/neutral B with MK

Tier List
can anyone comment on this?
 

ScubaF_ingSteve

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Here's my list.

*Note: Some are in specific order, but some aren't sorry*

Top
Snake
Metaknight

High
Mr. Game & Watch
Falco
Marth
R.O.B
Toon Link
King Dedede
Wolf
Wario

Upper Mid

Zelda
Olimar
Diddy Kong
Kirby
Lucario
Donkey Kong
Sheik
Pikachu
Pit

Lower Mid
Ice Climbers
Fox
Zero Suit Samus
Luigi
Lucas
Peach
Ness
Pokemon Trainer

Bottom
Sonic
Ganondorf
Link
Mario
Jiggypuff
Ike
Samus
Yoshi
Bowser
Caption Falcon
 

Jump_Man

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Yoshi definately deserves to be ranked higher than bottom tier. He's a great character who is incredibley underestimated.
 
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