Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)

[Mr. Escalator]

St. Viers is my favorite person here.
Evla needs to level up a lil bit before taking on the challenge of making a tier.

There are some people who seriously consider G&W as bad?

!!!

 

[Magus-Cie]

St. Viers is my favorite person here.
Evla needs to level up a lil bit before taking on the challenge of making a tier.

There are some people who seriously consider G&W as bad?

!!!

Just like there are some people who think that C. Falcon is particularly good :/

 

[Kiwikomix]

There are some people that consider ANYONE bad.

@ St. Viers: Eh, maybe it's time I stopped acting like a **** and gave reasoning on things...

 

[hizzlum]

I think Captain Olimar should be in high tier. He has an xtremely good ground game and is very difficult to approac. he has massive priority and his hitboxes cover a good amount of area when used.
His grab game is also quite good and while his recovery is the worst , he is still very difficult to palce in sucha situation.

I agree that it is difficult to place acharacter who has so many great talents, but then one thing that is crucial at 60%-higher(recovery) that is the worst in the game.
Olimar has fairly good match-ups, however he is not doing as good as suspected in tournies. I think the upper tier with pikachu,maybe Ic's and wolf and TL and others would be a good descion to place olimar until he starts winning more tournies.

 

[Adapt]

This was suggested some hundred or 3 replies back, but could we try to get consensus on parts of the tier list individually

I think its pretty clear that people agree: (deal with exact order later)

Top: Snake, MK
High: GW, DDD, Marth, Falco, ROB,

with the possible inclusion of Pikachu, Wario, Pit, and TL

How about we decide the worst characters now?

The contenders from what I understand it:
Jiggs, Yoshi, CF, Ganon

with the possible inclusion of Samus, Link, Bowser and PT


Is anyone missing from what would be the lowest tier?

 

[ShadowLink84]

I did not take chozen very seriously when he said you could gimp Sonic easily.
Or combo him.
*shrug*

 

[Unusual_Rex]

@Adapt

Yeah, that sounds about right, we have a general idea of the place ment of characters, just nothing 100% certain. No ground breaking techniques have been found yet, except maybe wavebouncing with somecharacters.

 

[Dark Sonic]

lol@comboing Sonic. Up B says hi.

 

[TehBo49]

Tier list

Looks okay except for a few things. Fisrt of all, Ike should move down to at least low mid tier. He's above a lot of characters he shouldn't be. You also need to switch Ganondorf & Captain Falcon. Sheik, Kirby, & Lucas should all move up (especially Kirby). Captain Olimar, Wolf, & possibly Wario should be high tier. Also Luigi > Mario.

 

[Unusual_Rex]

Thanks for the input!

 

[hizzlum]

This was suggested some hundred or 3 replies back, but could we try to get consensus on parts of the tier list individually

I think its pretty clear that people agree: (deal with exact order later)

Top: Snake, MK
High: GW, DDD, Marth, Falco, ROB,

with the possible inclusion of Pikachu, Wario, Pit, and TL

Everyone agrees the top tier is snake and MK, they win tournies and have good match ups. As for the high tier I suspect the placing will go down like this
High tier
G&W-a lot of easy matchups and he shows that in tournies
DDD-He wins tournaments with the CG and his matchups are overall good
Falco-SHDL and his CG get him some big wins and his match-ups are good,but no pro in the US has mained him in brawl(no pros post vids of him cept bomsoldier)
Marth-he gets tons of top8/4 placings in tournies and has superb match-ups(except against falco,snake,ROB)
Rob-wins tournies and good matchups on most of the cast, his heavness allows him to live long but his high knockback kills opponents at 100-120%
(Could possibly be in this tier/top of the upper tier in my opinion)
Wario-seems to be underrated in peoples tier list being placed in the mid, but he wins tons of tournaments, has a WOP, one of the best,but situational recoveries in brawl
Wolf-not the best matchups but wins tournies is above average in all categories of brawl
Donkey kong-counters some of the high/top tier characters with his range and power, matchups are okay, but its his tournament wins that catch the eye
Pikachu-again another character who proves to be doing well and is overall a good character
I think that the upper tier should be creat in tier lists to come beacuse there is a group under high tier but better than the middle(this group and some others)

 

[rathy Aro]

Just wondering. A tier list, as they were first described to me last year, ranks characters by who is the best played at its best potential? If that's the case how can you treat Azen, for example, like an anomaly to be disregarded as an example. Now that I think about it, I guess no one is really playing to full potential after 4 months. When I think about it more, shouldn't tournament rankings be irrelevant since they more likely say "these are the characters that can be played at a high level after 4 months" rather than "these are the best characters"?

Not really making a statement. Just wondering what you guys think.

 

[Adapt]

oh, I forgot about DK
He seems to be doing quite well

how many tiers are normally in the list?
What about: Top, Very High, High, Mid, Low, Very Low, Bottom might be interesting to place people in

that way you could have (screw bickering about order, get them in the right tier first)

Top: Snake, MK
V. High: GW, DDD, Falco, Marth, ROB
High: Wario, Pikachu, DK, Wolf, Pit, TL
.
Mid, Low are very debatable
.
V.Low: PT, Samus, Link, Bowser, Yoshi
Bottom: Jiggs, Ganon, CF


thought when I look at that it seems too many will be in the low catagory

which people might accept as decent. Of course you cant place everyone

 

[TehBo49]

Just wondering. A tier list, as they were first described to me last year, ranks characters by who is the best played at its best potential? If that's the case how can you treat Azen, for example, like an anomaly to be disregarded as an example. Now that I think about it, I guess no one is really playing to full potential after 4 months. When I think about it more, shouldn't tournament rankings be irrelevant since they more likely say "these are the characters that can be played at a high level after 4 months" rather than "these are the best characters"?

Not really making a statement. Just wondering what you guys think.

Tier lists rank characters according to the CURRENT metagame. So tournaments show who the best characters are right now.

 

[Ratherion]

Which is why I have my tier list and SWF has theirs.

NEVER allow a tier list to influence how you play your game or who you play it with, take me for instance. I play PT, who is rated as one of the poor characters in the game, however I see great potential in him, thus I main him and do very well in local tournies.

...yet I lack monies to go and play at more high-end tournies and attempt to up PT's ranking, saddening.

 

[Onxy]

Which is why I have my tier list and SWF has theirs.

NEVER allow a tier list to influence how you play your game or who you play it with, take me for instance. I play PT, who is rated as one of the poor characters in the game, however I see great potential in him, thus I main him and do very well in local tournies.

...yet I lack monies to go and play at more high-end tournies and attempt to up PT's ranking, saddening.

Well if that's true, then kick that silly bird icon out from under your public info.

 

[Ch0zen0ne]

A little bird told me you enjoy a well thought out argument. I hope this doesn’t get too long but I would hopefully like to make some points on your chart.

First of all you have both DDD and Falco above Marth. I don’t think emblem lord would agree with you on this. I always picture Marth as fourth on a tier list. Why? Well he does well in tournaments in fact he is right behind DDD and several spots above Falco. Next he has a lot of great matchups, about the same amount as falco and a good bit more that King Dededee. Finally we see that Marth is just good as a character. Good priority, range, and damage and practically all of his attacks. Can approach which is an important skill in a game with a lot of campers. I remember seeing Ken comment that he thinks there is even more to Marth than what is currently being displayed. All of this leads me to believe that Marth is above the characters you put above him.

Dededee’s speed and lack of a lot of good matchups really concerns me when it comes to placing him. I know he is good but I don’t think he is as good as many people give him credit for.

I can agree with your high tier. I could make a few pointers but really I would just be nitpicking.

You main R.O.B. why is he so low? In fact you posted his matchups in the R.O.B. board. You should know how good he is. R.O.B. stacks up well against a large amount of the cast. Not to mention he isn’t doing half bad when it comes to tournaments. He is also a great character overall. I am baffled as to why he went here.

I am disappointed with Pika’s placement. I guess you weren’t impressed by the Anther vs Overswarm matches. Pika isn’t too far off from his most likely spot on the tier list so I won’t get into this.

You put Mario, Fox, and Ike above the Ice climbers? After looking at the Character Rankings I guess I can see why. Ice climbers have a lot more good matchups than all of those characters though. They also don’t seem to have as many flaws. Even if infinite chaingrabbing is tough to pull off these little guys still have so grab combos they can do. I just don’t see why they are so low.

Diddy is surprisingly low also. I will admit his banana tactics were at first overestimated but they are still good. Diddy also still has good matchups against a decent amount of the cast. Not to mention he is the best comboer in the game. He just needs to move up in tournament wins I guess.

Why is Ike so high? Has someone been watching Azen. Even Ike players seem to admit that he isn’t that great of a character. His attacks come out way too slow and are predictable. He seems like one of those characters that you have to play to there strengths while covering their weakness.

Why is Donkey Kong so low? He has a decent amount of matchups even some in the upper tiers. He also has a pretty good tournament record so far.

Olimar in the WTF tier huh? Didn’t fox and Falco have poor recoveries in melee? I am not saying that Olimar is top tier. His recovery does certainly hold him back but it doesn’t put him with the worst of the worst. Olimar has good matchups against a lot of characters. Some of them even top and upper tiers. His grab is one of the best in the game with its speed range and kill potential. His smashes are pretty good also. Overall he is a pretty solid character except for his recovery. He isn’t doing half bad in tournaments either especially for being a “WTF” tier character.

No Sonic isn’t that good but I think He deserves to be a bit above the rest of the WTF tier. I can’t really explain what I have seen in him though.

NEO, is amazing. He beat Ken in a Marth ditto. Held the title of the world’s best Roy. I love watching him beat people who play higher tier characters.


I hope I have done better than the others who have gone "WTF CHOZEN!." I also hope I haven't wasted your time.

Somewhere in the 400 I posted my opinion on how a tier list should be constructed.

Also more people need to realize that Azen is top tier maybe even god tier. Final destination is up there also. I think Random is somewhere along the lines of mid. You do have the element of surprise and the potential good character.

Due to the fact that you spent some clear time writing this extremely well thought out commentary on my constructed tier list i shall give you the same curtisey [good lord that is spelled incorrectly] and respond when i too have time to put my thoughts down in an intelligent manner.

More to come soon.

 

[???????]

Ch0zen0ne, you never cease to amaze me.

 

[Ratherion]

Well if that's true, then kick that silly bird icon out from under your public info.

Oh hay I forgot to change that...

 

[St. Viers]

hey people, see a trend here? Well thought comments=well thought replies?

lets see if you logic buffs can parse the truth of the reverse, inverse, and converse statements?

 

[Ratherion]

statement: if p then q
converse: if q then p
inverse: if not p then not q
contrapositive: if not q then not p

Reverse statements?

 

[The Real Inferno]

This was suggested some hundred or 3 replies back, but could we try to get consensus on parts of the tier list individually

I think its pretty clear that people agree: (deal with exact order later)

Top: Snake, MK
High: GW, DDD, Marth, Falco, ROB,

with the possible inclusion of Pikachu, Wario, Pit, and TL

How about we decide the worst characters now?

The contenders from what I understand it:
Jiggs, Yoshi, CF, Ganon

with the possible inclusion of Samus, Link, Bowser and PT


Is anyone missing from what would be the lowest tier?

I would toss Link down there actually. He's just outclassed so much these days. Also I feel even though I had Yoshi on Bottom tier of my list, I think he's just being underappreciated right now and will rise up past bottom later on.

 

[St. Viers]

ratherion:
very good. You got my trap ^_^ I hope that was from previous knowledge and not wikipedia, but at lease you didn't blindly fall into it ^_^

 

[Ratherion]

Pre-Calc ftw.

Anyhow, Ivy can infinite-jump, I'm off to master that hax and raise her a few tiers XD.

 

[philbobjoe]

Actually the only one who may not be able to ISJR is Ike, but he still has a good chance of doing it.

 

[Ratherion]

Yeah, but Ivy has one of the top-5 more effective SJR strategies.

 

[Kaizo]

There are some people that consider ANYONE bad.

@ St. Viers: Eh, maybe it's time I stopped acting like a **** and gave reasoning on things...

Honestly, I'm so sick of reading his well thought out replies that I'd rather just see him flame people XD

@metal, you might think of Azen when you think of Ike, but I think of KDJ, and I don't know which one is better at Ike since I haven't seen Azen's Ike, but I know KDJ showed me how unpredictable Ike can be if one takes advantage of lagless nairs and such. I mean, I used to be the noob killer with Ike, even taking some decent people with him, but against smart people I couldn't hack it. Since then I've learned Ike a little better and now I can keep up with some of the better people (I'd probably get f****ed in a tourney, but that's why I stick to my main )

 

[ShadowLink84]

hey people, see a trend here? Well thought comments=well thought replies?

lets see if you logic buffs can parse the truth of the reverse, inverse, and converse statements?

I don't...
What...


<.<
>.>

8=====D


That is my answer XD

Okay seriously?
Regular: If "q" exists then "P" exists
Reverse: If "p" exists then "q" exists
Inverse: If "q" does not exists then "p" does not exist.
contraverse: if "p" does not exist then "q" does not exist


Something along those lines.

 

[Frown]

Could somebody give me three reasons to why Yoshi is at the bottom, except for his recovery?

 

[Kaizo]

Could somebody give me three reasons to why Yoshi is at the bottom, except for his recovery?

Nobody knows how to use him, so he must suck.

 

[Evla]

people, what happened to just posting the way to get to the list rather than the whole list....it's so obnoxious to have to see it over and over...

@Evla: try playing more, reading the forums (including the first post of this, which will link you to some useful pages, and THEN try posting a tier list ^_^

I do play the game alot actually. I'm just using my experience with the game. i'm not an expert at tier list. but i am a beast at the game and thats all that counts. lol

 

[Ch0zen0ne]

He's from PA... LOOOL

 

[Kaizo]

I do play the game alot actually. I'm just using my experience with the game. i'm not an expert at tier list. but i am a beast at the game and thats all that counts. lol

You can't be any good if you're using your experience with the game and it tells you that YOUR list isn't make of suck and aids.

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

He's from PA... LOOOL

Now is that really nesscessary >_>? He could still possibly be a good player.



I'm from Texas, what would you say about smashers from there?

 

[Kaizo]

Now is that really nesscessary >_>? He could still possibly be a good player.



I'm from Texas, what would you say about smashers from there?

Right, I only throw the whole "I'm from the East Coast so I own you" thing around because I'm not too bad, and because...well...I can (throw it around, I might own you too, but I can't entirely prove it from here)

I think he's laughing because chozen is also from PA. And he doesn't suck because he's from PA, he sucks because his tier list was created from personal experience

 

[missingnomaster]

Could somebody give me three reasons to why Yoshi is at the bottom, except for his recovery?

I wouldn't say he's bottom, but he seems to be disadvantaged against most characters, and his pros generally aren't as good in a match as they appear on paper.

Also, Yoshi's recovery does not suck.

 

[Meta Dude]

statement: if p then q
converse: if q then p
inverse: if not p then not q
contrapositive: if not q then not p

Reverse statements?

you sir, just BLEW MY MIND...

 

[Corigames]

Or he's saying that PA sucks.

AZ too good.

 

[Kaizo]

Or he's saying that PA sucks.

AZ < Kaizo

Good point, man, point well made.

 

[Corigames]

Don't **** with my posts please. ****ing ever.