Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)

[ShadowLink84]

ch0zen, you seem to be flattering yourself quite a bit. I've heard of you, of course, but it's easy to just say that you're the best at something without it being true. The same goes for flattering your own crew mates. Generally, a person that flaunts the fact that he's the best is absolutely not the best. I'm sure you're going to show me vids of you beating someone or other as a response, but whatever.
Anyway, just because one Mario manages to barely beat Azen's Pikachu doesn't mean Mario is high tier. I've noticed Mario mains tend to overrate their character much more than any other character mains, except maybe Sonic.

Sonic mains don't though. IF they state something usually its for good reason.
*shrug*
That usually goes for all character mains rarely do more professional users of that character state anything beyond reason.

THat and why is Mario high tier? *blink*

 

[Monshou_no_Nazo]

THat and why is Mario high tier? *blink*

No, just Upper Tier/Very High Mid Tier, depending on how many tiers there is going to be.

 

[Unusual_Rex]

I read his list but I'm still deciding on quite a few characters’ positions; I don't want to make any premature assumption, as ironic as that may sound.

He put Mario above DK, and Lucario, that should be an auto flag, DK is a counter to top-tiers, and has won 7 tourneys. Lucario has one 6, and Mario hasn't won 1 according to the Rankings list.

I really hope the guy was drunk when he wrote that.

 

[Kiwikomix]

Characters that are wrong in that list:
Pit, ROB, Pika, Toonie, Mario, Ike, DK, Kirby, Lucas, Olimar, Sonic, Zamus, PT. If a third of the characters are placed wrongly, it's obviously wrong.

 

[payasofobia]

You people shouldn't too worried about that tier list... after all, the tier list that actually matters won't come until next year.

 

[???????]

He put Mario above DK, and Lucario, that should be an auto flag, DK is a counter to top-tiers, and has won 7 tourneys. Lucario has one 6, and Mario hasn't won 1 according to the Rankings list.

I see what you're saying but you are only referencing a list based on U.S. tourneys; I agree with you for the most part but there are many factors we need to consider.

 

[TehBo49]

I think his list is fine but I'm not sure exactly why Ike is high in mid (Ike is good but I don't see him above Ice Climbers) and why Ice Climbers are in mid below Ike (I can see them higher).

Um, he has Kirby, Sheik, & Lucas in bottom tier. Olimar & Zamus are even lower than that. How can you think his list is fine?

 

[???????]

Because I say things are "fine" when I can agree at around fifty percent.

 

[Unusual_Rex]

Yeah, it's majorly flawed. Like I've been saying Mario is mid-mid at most.

Because I say things are "fine" when I can agree at around fifty percent.

50%? Mine would pass as perfect in your books then



P.S. Were can I view the results of Japanese tourney results?

 

[flyingpork002]

i cannot take any list seriously that has olimar at the bottom

 

[???????]

50%? Mine would pass as perfect in your books then

As long as you meet me halfway I can do the rest.

P.S. Were can I view the results of Japanese tourney results?

Here's one but you'll probably have to search online for others:
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=161546

 

[Unusual_Rex]

As long as you meet me halfway I can do the rest.




Here's one but you'll probably have to search online for others:
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=161546

That's still similar to the NA one. Mario which was put on upper (on Chozens Tier list) is below Olimar, which he put in a category below bottom...

Lists need to be based off fact not opinion.

 

[The Real Inferno]

I revised the format of the SRK list.

Top: Snake, Metaknight
High: Falco, Game & Watch, Marth, King Dedede, R.O.B.
High-Mid: Wolf, Toon Link, Pikachu, Donkey Kong, Wario, Diddy Kong, Ice Climbers
Mid: Lucas, Lucario, Pit, Olimar, Fox, Zelda, Zero Suit Samus, Ike, Luigi, Sheik, Kirby, Ness, Squirtle
Low-Mid: Peach, Bowser, Samus, Link, Charizard, Jigglypuff
Low: Ivysaur, Ganondorf, Sonic, Mario, Yoshi
Bottom: Captain Falcon

I suggest switching Ivysaur and Charizard's places. Ivysaur has a much better combo game, and an actually good Tether recovery. Fence of Pain and excellent air attacks, make him more effective than Charizard, but you should probably combin all three pokes to just PT and put him where Charizard is now.

 

[???????]

Lists need to be based off fact not opinion.

Exactly, but many are still forming opinions and we will have to work out what truth is in their statements before judging them.

 

[Unusual_Rex]

True, but for now all we have are rankings charts (which are fact), and the match-up thread which can be used but isn't 100% accurate. I'd say it's a fairly loose guide line.

But see this is what I base my list on, it was obvious opinion on Chozens list. Mario, doesn't have the rankings to receive that position.

 

[???????]

I agree, Mario is most likely around mid mid but also possibly slightly higher around high mid.

 

[Unusual_Rex]

I agree, Mario is most likely around mid mid but also possibly slightly higher around high mid.

If that ends up being the case it may only be a position or two. But as of now I think he'll float around low-mid to mid-mid.

 

[Kaizo]

I suggest switching Ivysaur and Charizard's places. Ivysaur has a much better combo game, and an actually good Tether recovery. Fence of Pain and excellent air attacks, make him more effective than Charizard, but you should probably combin all three pokes to just PT and put him where Charizard is now.

Saying Ivysaur>Charizard is like saying Mario>Luigi, or Jiggs>Kirby, or Marth is more manly than Captain Falcon.....you could probably just die after saying something like that.

 

[Browny]

i think mario is > luigi lol. at least mario doesnt have to be right up in thier face to land a KO move, and his stutter stpped fsmash has huuuuge range

 

[Kaizo]

i think mario is > luigi lol. at least mario doesnt have to be right up in thier face to land a KO move, and his stutter stpped fsmash has huuuuge range

Luigi has every bit of killing power as Mario does, except he has one of the best recoveries in the game, and has a lot of priority in his aerials.

 

[Evla]

Im not an expert but i think the tier list will be similar 2 this


Top tier
Marth
Fox
Wolf

High tier
Captain Falcon
Shiek
Falco
Snake
ROB
Ike
Pit

Mid tier
Link
Ganondorf
Sonic
T.Link
MetaKnight
Samus
Lucario
Zero Suit Samus
Wario
Mario
Luigi
Ice climbers
Pokemon Trainer Charizard
Peach

Low tier
Pikachu
Lucas
Bowser
King Dedede
Ness
JigglyPuff
PT Ivyasuar
Donkey Kong
Zelda
Yoshi
Diddy Kong
PT Squirtle
Kirby

Bottom tier
Mr. Game and Watch
Olimar

 

[Rampage]

Im not an expert but i think the tier list will be similar 2 this


Top tier
Marth
Fox
Wolf

High tier
Captain Falcon
Shiek
Falco
Snake
ROB
Ike
Pit

Mid tier
Link
Ganondorf
Sonic
T.Link
MetaKnight
Samus
Lucario
Zero Suit Samus
Wario
Mario
Luigi
Ice climbers
Pokemon Trainer Charizard
Peach

Low tier
Pikachu
Lucas
Bowser
King Dedede
Ness
JigglyPuff
PT Ivyasuar
Donkey Kong
Zelda
Yoshi
Diddy Kong
PT Squirtle
Kirby

Bottom tier
Mr. Game and Watch
Olimar

LOL what a stupid magazine

 

[Kaizo]

I've never played this game, so here's my tier list:

Top tier
NOT Meta Knight
NOT Snake
NOT G&W

(More garb tiers)

Bottom tier
NOT the manliest character EVAR

Well it was a good shot

 

[DanGR]

Olimar...at bottom...*grips heart* *cries*

 

[TehBo49]

Im not an expert but i think the tier list will be similar 2 this

Tier list

Wtf?

10chars

 

[St. Viers]

People, if you haven't heard of chozen, it's only because you didn't play melee at an informed level for long enough. As imo the top 3 jiggz ppl had heard of were mango, king, chozen... and in brawl, Overswarm and Chozen are the 2 ROBs peple agree are the best so far.

Boss8 is insane, but the fact is that mario is just better than people assume.

My problem with this community right now is their INABILITY to do the following.
1. Think critically
2. Research
3. Come up w/ their own ideas.

This is why when someone comes along and posts something you don't expect, even if they give reasons (*cough, chozen*), you don't think, you come up with these ingrained responses that don't show any cognitive function.

I'm not saying I agree with chozen's list (though I actually like most of it...I just think he drastically underestimates a few toons), but at least when I look at it I think about it and question it, see why he says things, and proceed to comment on it after that.

Why the hell don't 95% of you do that? It would make this thread readable again, lead to GOOD debate, not just having to rehash the same things over and over, and in general it would help to inform the community.

re: mario. Because of his cape and fireballs, he *can* be played like pit, except that he doesn't have a wasted move (downB), and he lasts longer. He kills better, and has a better edgeguarding game. Pit is easy to manuever with, and has a better projectile, but why do ppl automatically assume pit=good, mario=bad? It's because we've been telling ourselves sice day 1 that mario isn't good, because he changed from melee, and has a move that works novelly (fludd). Even though he can combo, camp, stop campers, and kill, he's average at all those.

However, in brawl, where disadvantages are move set, being average at everything is better, because it means that there will be some way to respond. In melee even disadvantaged chars could make up for it do to l-cancelling, WDing, but in brawl, disadvantages can't really be overcome, (except by mindgames), meaning a "balanced, average" char like mario is actually better than chars that are great in 1-2 area's but bad at the others...

Now, I'm not saying mario is god, but he's certainly in mid tier, and could rise, if more ppl use him at the same level boss can.

re: "He doesn't look so good." This is brawl. No high level brawl play will look super flashy, as it could in melee. Even in melee, serious games were much different from the same ppl making a combo video. A great example of this would be to watch a few melty blood tournie matches--where you'll go from playing super cautiously to aggressive depending on whether you *need* to win or not.

In brawl, it's all about calculating risk/reward, and knowing when to back off, which comes much sooner in brawl than any other fighting game, meaning top level games will look boring, and great players won't shine, so much as they will simply out-do the other player...so don't say "x doesn't look that good," instead, actually watch the effin match.

This thread is so aggravating

 

[DanGR]

I love you

 

[ICANTCOUNT123456]

R.O.B >>> Mr. G&W

 

[Theftz22]

Evla, noobs like you are sucking the intelligence out of smashboards

St. Viers gets his point across so ****ing well!

 

[Kiwikomix]

I... I can't.... I don't.... what..............
OK.
Marth, Fox, Wolf, Sheik, Falcon, Falco, Snake, ROB, Ike, Pit, Link, Sonic, Ganon, Toon Link, MK, Samus, Wario, Mario, IC's, Peach, Pika, Lucas, Boozer, Dedede, Jiggz, DK, Zelda, Diddy, Kirby, G&W, Olimar, and every one of PT's Pokemon are wrong on that list.
On the plus side, you got five characters right.

 

[ICANTCOUNT123456]

Im not an expert but i think the tier list will be similar 2 this


Top tier
Marth
Fox
Wolf

High tier
Captain Falcon
Shiek
Falco
Snake
ROB
Ike
Pit

Mid tier
Link
Ganondorf
Sonic
T.Link
MetaKnight
Samus
Lucario
Zero Suit Samus
Wario
Mario
Luigi
Ice climbers
Pokemon Trainer Charizard
Peach

Low tier
Pikachu
Lucas
Bowser
King Dedede
Ness
JigglyPuff
PT Ivyasuar
Donkey Kong
Zelda
Yoshi
Diddy Kong
PT Squirtle
Kirby

Bottom tier
Mr. Game and Watch
Olimar

I... don't know what to say... I think I'm having a stroke to be honest...

 

[St. Viers]

people, what happened to just posting the way to get to the list rather than the whole list....it's so obnoxious to have to see it over and over...

@Evla: try playing more, reading the forums (including the first post of this, which will link you to some useful pages, and THEN try posting a tier list ^_^

 

[Kaizo]

people, what happened to just posting the way to get to the list rather than the whole list....it's so obnoxious to have to see it over and over...

@Evla: try playing more, reading the forums (including the first post of this, which will link you to some useful pages, and THEN try posting a tier list ^_^

God dammit, I didn't do my whole "hey, welcome to smashboards" bit =/

 

[Unusual_Rex]

Okay, I've made some major changes to my list, please comment!

A (U) beside a name means they could possibly move up on the list.
A (D) beside a name means they could possibly move down on the list.
An (N) beside the name means they could possibly move up or down on the list.

Top Tiers:

Snake (D)
Meta Knight (D)
Mr. Game & Watch (D)
Marth (N)

High Tiers:

Falco (U)
R.O.B (D)
Toon Link (N)
King Dedede (N)
Pikachu (N)
Pit (N)

Upper Mid Tiers:

Wario (D)
Wolf (N)
Captain Olimar (U)
Donkey Kong (N)
Lucario (N)
Zelda (U)

Mid Mid Tiers:

Ice Climbers (N)
Ike (D)
Fox (U)
Zero Suit Samus (U)
Diddy Kong (N)
Mario (D)
Luigi (N)

Low Mid Tiers:

Lucas (D)
Squirtle (D)
Ness (D)
Sonic (U)
Sheik (U)
Kirby (N)

Low Tiers:

Link (U)
Samus (N)
Ivysaur (N)
Peach (D)
Charizard (U)
Bowser (N)

Bottom Tiers:

Jigglypuff (U)
Yoshi (N)
Captain Falcon (U)
Ganondorf (U)

 

[ShadowLink84]

I think Captain Olimar should be in high tier. He has an xtremely good ground game and is very difficult to approac. he has massive priority and his hitboxes cover a good amount of area when used.
His grab game is also quite good and while his recovery is the worst , he is still very difficult to palce in sucha situation.

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

People, if you haven't heard of chozen, it's only because you didn't play melee at an informed level for long enough. As imo the top 3 jiggz ppl had heard of were mango, king, chozen... and in brawl, Overswarm and Chozen are the 2 ROBs peple agree are the best so far.

Boss8 is insane, but the fact is that mario is just better than people assume.

My problem with this community right now is their INABILITY to do the following.
1. Think critically
2. Research
3. Come up w/ their own ideas.

This is why when someone comes along and posts something you don't expect, even if they give reasons (*cough, chozen*), you don't think, you come up with these ingrained responses that don't show any cognitive function.

I'm not saying I agree with chozen's list (though I actually like most of it...I just think he drastically underestimates a few toons), but at least when I look at it I think about it and question it, see why he says things, and proceed to comment on it after that.

Why the hell don't 95% of you do that? It would make this thread readable again, lead to GOOD debate, not just having to rehash the same things over and over, and in general it would help to inform the community.

re: mario. Because of his cape and fireballs, he *can* be played like pit, except that he doesn't have a wasted move (downB), and he lasts longer. He kills better, and has a better edgeguarding game. Pit is easy to manuever with, and has a better projectile, but why do ppl automatically assume pit=good, mario=bad? It's because we've been telling ourselves sice day 1 that mario isn't good, because he changed from melee, and has a move that works novelly (fludd). Even though he can combo, camp, stop campers, and kill, he's average at all those.

However, in brawl, where disadvantages are move set, being average at everything is better, because it means that there will be some way to respond. In melee even disadvantaged chars could make up for it do to l-cancelling, WDing, but in brawl, disadvantages can't really be overcome, (except by mindgames), meaning a "balanced, average" char like mario is actually better than chars that are great in 1-2 area's but bad at the others...

Now, I'm not saying mario is god, but he's certainly in mid tier, and could rise, if more ppl use him at the same level boss can.

re: "He doesn't look so good." This is brawl. No high level brawl play will look super flashy, as it could in melee. Even in melee, serious games were much different from the same ppl making a combo video. A great example of this would be to watch a few melty blood tournie matches--where you'll go from playing super cautiously to aggressive depending on whether you *need* to win or not.

In brawl, it's all about calculating risk/reward, and knowing when to back off, which comes much sooner in brawl than any other fighting game, meaning top level games will look boring, and great players won't shine, so much as they will simply out-do the other player...so don't say "x doesn't look that good," instead, actually watch the effin match.

This thread is so aggravating

**** it Viers, this is why I love you and you're a part of the SFR. Amazing stuff.

 

[Kiwikomix]

What does "toon" mean? I've been seeing this word and it's new to me.

 

[metalmonstar]

Btw.. all of you telling me that Sonic is amazing, and i should watch Lucky play... well.. Sonic is not good... its like when "Neo" was maining Roy.... just not good at all.. he's even easy to gimp, combo, and CANNOT kill.. no jones. Sonic Blows.[/I]

Emblem Lord.. help me out here my good sir...



Good Day Sirs.

A little bird told me you enjoy a well thought out argument. I hope this doesn’t get too long but I would hopefully like to make some points on your chart.

First of all you have both DDD and Falco above Marth. I don’t think emblem lord would agree with you on this. I always picture Marth as fourth on a tier list. Why? Well he does well in tournaments in fact he is right behind DDD and several spots above Falco. Next he has a lot of great matchups, about the same amount as falco and a good bit more that King Dededee. Finally we see that Marth is just good as a character. Good priority, range, and damage and practically all of his attacks. Can approach which is an important skill in a game with a lot of campers. I remember seeing Ken comment that he thinks there is even more to Marth than what is currently being displayed. All of this leads me to believe that Marth is above the characters you put above him.

Dededee’s speed and lack of a lot of good matchups really concerns me when it comes to placing him. I know he is good but I don’t think he is as good as many people give him credit for.

I can agree with your high tier. I could make a few pointers but really I would just be nitpicking.

You main R.O.B. why is he so low? In fact you posted his matchups in the R.O.B. board. You should know how good he is. R.O.B. stacks up well against a large amount of the cast. Not to mention he isn’t doing half bad when it comes to tournaments. He is also a great character overall. I am baffled as to why he went here.

I am disappointed with Pika’s placement. I guess you weren’t impressed by the Anther vs Overswarm matches. Pika isn’t too far off from his most likely spot on the tier list so I won’t get into this.

You put Mario, Fox, and Ike above the Ice climbers? After looking at the Character Rankings I guess I can see why. Ice climbers have a lot more good matchups than all of those characters though. They also don’t seem to have as many flaws. Even if infinite chaingrabbing is tough to pull off these little guys still have so grab combos they can do. I just don’t see why they are so low.

Diddy is surprisingly low also. I will admit his banana tactics were at first overestimated but they are still good. Diddy also still has good matchups against a decent amount of the cast. Not to mention he is the best comboer in the game. He just needs to move up in tournament wins I guess.

Why is Ike so high? Has someone been watching Azen. Even Ike players seem to admit that he isn’t that great of a character. His attacks come out way too slow and are predictable. He seems like one of those characters that you have to play to there strengths while covering their weakness.

Why is Donkey Kong so low? He has a decent amount of matchups even some in the upper tiers. He also has a pretty good tournament record so far.

Olimar in the WTF tier huh? Didn’t fox and Falco have poor recoveries in melee? I am not saying that Olimar is top tier. His recovery does certainly hold him back but it doesn’t put him with the worst of the worst. Olimar has good matchups against a lot of characters. Some of them even top and upper tiers. His grab is one of the best in the game with its speed range and kill potential. His smashes are pretty good also. Overall he is a pretty solid character except for his recovery. He isn’t doing half bad in tournaments either especially for being a “WTF” tier character.

No Sonic isn’t that good but I think He deserves to be a bit above the rest of the WTF tier. I can’t really explain what I have seen in him though.

NEO, is amazing. He beat Ken in a Marth ditto. Held the title of the world’s best Roy. I love watching him beat people who play higher tier characters.


I hope I have done better than the others who have gone "WTF CHOZEN!." I also hope I haven't wasted your time.

Somewhere in the 400 I posted my opinion on how a tier list should be constructed.

Also more people need to realize that Azen is top tier maybe even god tier. Final destination is up there also. I think Random is somewhere along the lines of mid. You do have the element of surprise and the potential good character.

 

[Adapt]

toon = character

 

[St. Viers]

um ,toon comes from cartoon, or cartoon character, and it's easier than saying "character," and can't be confused w/ 10char.