Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)

[Unusual_Rex]

Good point, man, point well made.

Wow, everyone just has to be a comedian

 

[ShadowLink84]

I touch myself at night.

<.<
All's fair in love and... interwebz

 

[Unusual_Rex]

We should probably get back on topic.

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

I wouldn't say he's bottom, but he seems to be disadvantaged against most characters, and his pros generally aren't as good in a match as they appear on paper.Also, Yoshi's recovery does not suck.

I'd actually like to talk about this subject.


Sure, all of can debate and discuss a character's strengths and weaknesses here, but what truly matters is that what happens when it's actually applied in a tournament setting. Sure theorycrafting is nice and can be very productive, but it's all moot if experimental and factual evidence proves otherwise. Take the ICs and Diddy for example, many thought with the Infinte Grabs that the ICs would become broken and Top Tier, but when you actually look at tourney results, the truth is shown that it's far from that, because simply the best of players know to not get grabbed and the fact that they are relatively hard to learn drives away others, keeping them from being consistently used. Diddy with his hax Nanerz mindgames was thought to be a very capable and possibly Very High Tier canadate, but again look at tourney results as of now, this doesn't seem to be the case at all. Now look at a character like Ike, I personally hate him with a burning passion, and think he's way too laggy and predictable to be of any use, but the thing is he's still placing relatively well aside from that. Now i'm not denying that these characters aren't good or bad, and in fact they are actually starting to rise/drop in performance respectively, but we cannot rely our opinions on just theorycraft alone, we have to see how these things actually play out in a real life situation and make judgements from there.

 

[TehBo49]

Now is that really nesscessary >_>? He could still possibly be a good player.



I'm from Texas, what would you say about smashers from there?

Smashers from Texas are okay, but Ohio smashers are definitely the best.

 

[Corigames]

...what truly matters is that what happens when it's actually applied in a tournament setting. Sure theorycrafting is nice and can be very productive, but it's all moot if experimental and factual evidence proves otherwise...

Yes. YES. YES! YES!

I love how everyone likes to argue semantics of characters moves and whanot but do not care to talk about how that works when you are in a tournament setting, let alone agianst someone who knows what they're doing! It's ridiculous.

Yes, DeDeDe has chaingrabs, so don't get grabbed! Yes, IC's could wobble, so don't get grabbed when Nana is anywhere nearby! (wow, I use two grab examples... diversity) Yes, Snake has titls; stay away from him!

If you think, it helps.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Indeed but how easy is it to stay away from Snake? He is going to bait you with his grenades, nikita and other weapons and mortar slide is an excellent way of moving about.
Yeah playing smart works well but your opponent is p;laying smart as well and so they will bait you.
This has been shown in tournament settings.

 

[Kaizo]

Yes. YES. YES! YES!

I love how everyone likes to argue semantics of characters moves and whanot but do not care to talk about how that works when you are in a tournament setting, let alone agianst someone who knows what they're doing! It's ridiculous.

Yes, DeDeDe has chaingrabs, so don't get grabbed! Yes, IC's could wobble, so don't get grabbed when Nana is anywhere nearby! (wow, I use two grab examples... diversity) Yes, Snake has titls; stay away from him!

If you think, it helps.

Right, the thing is that proving things like "don't get grabbed" or "stay away from Snake" can only be proved IN GAME (I thought this was kind of understood, I guess some people just never got it, but then again most people can't play with good people all the time, and good is relative, which is why tourney experience is the best kind). That's why I mostly apply my own experience to discussions, and then fill in the rest with those pesky facts and theories. That's how I know Bowser isn't low, and DK can go further than mid, and Mario could be in mid somewhere, and Ike actually isn't bad.

 

[Corigames]

I play Pit. I always have the option of staying away

That's actually my response to everything in Brawl, camp. Sadly... it works.

 

[St. Viers]

welll, the problem with most theory crafting is that they don't include pressure, the advantage of initiative, and surprisingly enough, the range of people's attacks.

It just happends that when people talk about snake, they are forced to talk about those, so his paper matchup ends up actually reflecting his actual matchup.

 

[adumbrodeus]

I'd actually like to talk about this subject.


Sure, all of can debate and discuss a character's strengths and weaknesses here, but what truly matters is that what happens when it's actually applied in a tournament setting. Sure theorycrafting is nice and can be very productive, but it's all moot if experimental and factual evidence proves otherwise. Take the ICs and Diddy for example, many thought with the Infinte Grabs that the ICs would become broken and Top Tier, but when you actually look at tourney results, the truth is shown that it's far from that, because simply the best of players know to not get grabbed and the fact that they are relatively hard to learn drives away others, keeping them from being consistently used. Diddy with his hax Nanerz mindgames was thought to be a very capable and possibly Very High Tier canadate, but again look at tourney results as of now, this doesn't seem to be the case at all. Now look at a character like Ike, I personally hate him with a burning passion, and think he's way too laggy and predictable to be of any use, but the thing is he's still placing relatively well aside from that. Now i'm not denying that these characters aren't good or bad, and in fact they are actually starting to rise/drop in performance respectively, but we cannot rely our opinions on just theorycraft alone, we have to see how these things actually play out in a real life situation and make judgements from there.

But then on the other hand, you do have to realize that we're REALLY early in Brawls lifetime, the metagame is evolving to a great deal. A lot of the theory is applicable, just not yet because people haven't figured it out quite yet. Tournaments at this point must be taken with a grain of salt.


Oh, and where's my cookie?

Indeed but how easy is it to stay away from Snake? He is going to bait you with his grenades, nikita and other weapons and mortar slide is an excellent way of moving about.
Yeah playing smart works well but your opponent is p;laying smart as well and so they will bait you.
This has been shown in tournament settings.

Then play better then him/her/, pressure better, force your opponent to approach. Remember, it's moves like chaingrabs and and the tilts that give certain characters advantageous match-ups. If your opponent has an advantageous match-up against you, the reason doesn't matter, you just need to work harder to beat them, period.

Railing against chaingrabs and f-tilts doesn't do much.

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

But then on the other hand, you do have to realize that we're REALLY early in Brawls lifetime, the metagame is evolving to a great deal. A lot of the theory is applicable, just not yet because people haven't figured it out quite yet. Tournaments at this point must be taken with a grain of salt.


Oh, and where's my cookie?




Then play better then him/her/, pressure better, force your opponent to approach. Remember, it's moves like chaingrabs and and the tilts that give certain characters advantageous match-ups. If your opponent has an advantageous match-up against you, the reason doesn't matter, you just need to work harder to beat them, period.

Railing against chaingrabs and f-tilts doesn't do much.

That's true, but really it all leads up to a "Wait and see" Thing, nothing more we can do other than do just that.


Oh, and here's your Cookie *Hands you cookie*

 

[adumbrodeus]

That's true, but really it all leads up to a "Wait and see" Thing, nothing more we can do other than do just that.

Sure, ultimately waiting will tell us the most, but for now, that's why theory is useful, period. True, we can't be completely accurate, but by discussing theory we can estimate at least approximately what the character's potential is.

Just as long as we remember to discuss the right aspects, missing things like pressure and range does mess up the match-up.

Oh, and here's your Cookie *Hands you cookie*

Thanks... This cookie is simply fabulous!

*eats cookie*

 

[ShadowLink84]

Then play better then him/her/, pressure better, force your opponent to approach. Remember, it's moves like chaingrabs and and the tilts that give certain characters advantageous match-ups. If your opponent has an advantageous match-up against you, the reason doesn't matter, you just need to work harder to beat them, period.

Railing against chaingrabs and f-tilts doesn't do much.

Of course not however saying avoid the F tilt and U tilt and actually doing is two different things.

Saying pressure better or force your opponent is not very easy to do.
For example Snake rarely has to approach an opponent.
Mines, C4, grenades, nikita, mortar, Fti;lt, Utilt. All his moves are better for baiting than the majority of the cast.
If he has problems approaching he has the DAC which is not only quick but covers him when he recovers from the cool down time.
Grenades protect him from getting chaingrab as do setting up mines and C4.
Ftilt has good range so even when he approaches he doesn't have to get within your range.
U tilt has incredible range and killing power.
His edge guarding game is good.

yes you can pressure him, force him into offensive and limit his options. However how many characters can force Snake into such a scenario?
Can they do it well and take advantage of it?
I can deal with Snake's just fine with my Falco. I can Laser pressure and CG to Spike for an easier time at killing. Nair also goes through his mortar and acts as both defense and attack.
However, I do not agree on how Coreygame makes it sound.

If the character can CG avoid it, if Snake has U/Filts avoid them.
Being able to apply the idea is more difficult than it sounds.


Can I have a cookie too? ;-;

 

[Kiwikomix]

Yes, DeDeDe has chaingrabs, so don't get grabbed! Yes, IC's could wobble, so don't get grabbed when Nana is anywhere nearby! (wow, I use two grab examples... diversity) Yes, Snake has tilts; stay away from him!

If you think, it helps.

I wish it was as simple as this. However, the reason Snake is a higher character is that he can punish you greatly for staying away from him. I understand you main Pit, who can help shut down his projectile spam with your own, but most other characters don't have the luxury of spammable projectiles AND reflectors.

With another character, when you approach Snake, he'll either stay and duke it out with his tilts and jabs, or mortarslide/dash attack away from you. It's characters that can't handle this that make Brawl such a camping-oriented game.

The same thing goes for Dedede and the IC's. "Don't get grabbed" really does sound simple on paper, but you never know when you're going to attack and the IC's are going to shield grab you. Also, both Dedede and the IC's have the problem that they have other options to their gameplay that make them often difficult to beat anyway.

PS: I edited your post just to spell "tilts" right, hope you don't mind.

Edit: Apparently ShadowLink said the exact same thing about a minute before I did. Swell.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Mwahahahahah Kiwi Has Been Defeated!
Xd

 

[Kiwikomix]

This game's winner is...
SWF!
KOs: 4
Falls: 0
SD's: 3

 

[ShadowLink84]

SWF sucks to have 3 SD's XD

 

[Morrigan]

I won't rely 100% on any tier until a year or more have passed. Hell, the first Melee tier list had Zelda in High tier >_>

 

[Kiwikomix]

SWF sucks to have 3 SD's XD

It's because he keeps Falco Phantasming off the edge.

I won't rely 100% on any tier until a year or more have passed. Hell, the first Melee tier list had Zelda in High tier >_>

This is sort of the attitude I have sometimes. I will discuss Brawl, but I still play Melee much more simply because Melee is more technically difficult. A year from now, when Brawl becomes much harder to play at a higher level of play, I'll try it again.

 

[Corigames]

I wish it was as simple as this. However, the reason Snake is a higher character is that he can punish you greatly for staying away from him. I understand you main Pit, who can help shut down his projectile spam with your own, but most other characters don't have the luxury of spammable projectiles AND reflectors.

And I have no argument with that. Someone who plays Wario doesn't really have some specific way of getting around it, let alone a character who is lower than him! I hate it when I see someone play against metaknight and can't beat him. I have a special hate for him >_> Pit can't do crap against that tornado move, I hate it. It's not going kill him anytime soon, but it racks up damage and you can't do alot against it. This is probably the same frustration someone has against Snake that I don't feel.

This all just loops back around to my opinion that Brawl is more of a puzzle game. What's the puzzle? The character select screen.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Exactly.
its basically an insta lose game when you play against Snake unless you are one of the few characters capable of taking him on.

At least in melee all characters had some viability. IN this game once someone goes snake you're pretty much gonna have problems.

 

[Kaizo]

And I have no argument with that. Someone who plays Wario doesn't really have some specific way of getting around it, let alone a character who is lower than him! I hate it when I see someone play against metaknight and can't beat him. I have a special hate for him >_> Pit can't do crap against that tornado move, I hate it. It's not going kill him anytime soon, but it racks up damage and you can't do alot against it. This is probably the same frustration someone has against Snake that I don't feel.

This all just loops back around to my opinion that Brawl is more of a puzzle game. What's the puzzle? The character select screen.

MK's tornado is easy to deal with....don't get hit by it >_>

 

[Kiwikomix]

And I have no argument with that. Someone who plays Wario doesn't really have some specific way of getting around it, let alone a character who is lower than him! I hate it when I see someone play against metaknight and can't beat him. I have a special hate for him >_> Pit can't do crap against that tornado move, I hate it. It's not going kill him anytime soon, but it racks up damage and you can't do alot against it. This is probably the same frustration someone has against Snake that I don't feel.

This all just loops back around to my opinion that Brawl is more of a puzzle game. What's the puzzle? The character select screen.

Yes, it really does seem like the "rockpaperscissors" aspect of Brawl has been buffed. When you try to read your opponent, it ends up like, "Well, if he does paper, I'll do scissors, but if he expects me to do scissors then I'll have to do paper instead to counter his rock." In the end, both players just choose paper over and over until one player gets a hit, then backs off and it starts all over again.

Edit: Can't your arrows outprioritize the tornado from a distance, or sideB up close?

 

[TehBo49]

Exactly.
its basically an insta lose game when you play against Snake unless you are one of the few characters capable of taking him on.

At least in melee all characters had some viability. IN this game once someone goes snake you're pretty much gonna have problems.

That's the current situation. However, in the future, strategies will be developed in order to counter Snake.

 

[Corigames]

Edit: Can't your arrows outprioritize the tornado from a distance, or sideB up close?

No. And all the other moves I tried haven't knocked him out of it. (I may just be doing it wrong, but I'm only going to say MY experience and what I've seen in videos. I can't talk for everyone, so if you have dissenting evidence, please throw it out without saying I'm wrong... because this is just MY insight, not fact) The best thing I can do is try to put up my shield and reflect it away, if only for a moment then try to hit him when it stops. That's all I've got against his 1 move. And even to pull that off right, I have to expect it! So if he does it in the middle of the normal spam... ****.

 

[St. Viers]

um, MK's B has no priority on top, so attack it from aabove, or loop an arrow into it ^_^

 

[Snowstalker]

My new, ultimate tier list.

TOP:

Snake
Meta Knight
Marth
Mr. Game & Watch
Falco
R.O.B.

HIGH:

Toon Link
Pikachu
King Dedede
Ice Climbers
Wolf
Captian Olimar
Kirby
Pit

MIDDLE:

Wario
Diddy Kong
Fox
Bowser
Zamus
Luigi
Donkey Kong
Lucas
Zelda
Lucario
Mario
Yoshi
Ness

LOW:

Pokemon Trainer
Peach
Ike
Shiek
Samus
Sonic
Link

BOTTOM:

Jigglypuff
Ganondorf
Captian Falcon

 

[Ch0zen0ne]

Actually to be more accurate.. it is MetaKnight that is causing this "shift" in what is playable...

Its like in melee how it wasn't Fox, but Sheik that made over half the cast unplayable...

 

[Corigames]

um, MK's B has no priority on top, so attack it from aabove, or loop an arrow into it ^_^

*Face palm*

Seriously?

 

[Kiwikomix]

^^ That's true. Meta-Knight actually has the ability to shut down the cast more easily than Snake can, which is a remarkable feat for someone without a projectile. The only reason MK isn't as good as Snake is because he doesn't last as long.

@ Tier List: Marth not so high maybe, and high tier might be extended down to Wario. Boozer might be too high, and DK might be too low. Yoshi might go down a couple of spaces. Great list, though.

 

[Swordsrule]

Quick question...

How is Zelda middle or lower tier on most charts? Her up smash and down smash both have very high priority and KO potential. In addition her din's fire has been greatly raised in power and range, making it a great spam move for ranged fighting. Naryus love is faster now and has reflective properties but also directional knockback properties. Her side smash attack and netrual attacks are also high priority and quick/powerful....Plus dont forget the "heel" and now her explosive up smash which has huge KO potential in the hands of a skilled zelda player.

Really i'd say that her few downsides are her movement speed (slow compared to most) and troublesome recovery move....

I'm not saying she should be top tier...but at least in the "high tier" spot. I understand that this is mostly based on tourney rankings....but could it be that there just have not been enough zelda players to get good results?

 

[Kaizo]

Quick question...

How is Zelda middle or lower tier on most charts? Her up smash and down smash both have very high priority and KO potential. In addition her din's fire has been greatly raised in power and range, making it a great spam move for ranged fighting. Naryus love is faster now and has reflective properties but also directional knockback properties. Her side smash attack and netrual attacks are also high priority and quick/powerful....Plus dont forget the "heel" and now her explosive up smash which has huge KO potential in the hands of a skilled zelda player.

Really i'd say that her few downsides are her movement speed (slow compared to most) and troublesome recovery move....

I'm not saying she should be top tier...but at least in the "high tier" spot. I understand that this is mostly based on tourney rankings....but could it be that there just have not been enough zelda players to get good results?

Her biggest asset was din's fire, which people figured out how to dodge in like 3 days. People just don't seem to have a problem dealing with her.

 

[Zankoku]

Arrows do nothing against Tornado. I haven't tried Halo yet.

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

Actually to be more accurate.. it is MetaKnight that is causing this "shift" in what is playable...

Its like in melee how it wasn't Fox, but Sheik that made over half the cast unplayable...

I feel bad now, thanks a lot >_>.



On the other hand.....

 

[Ch0zen0ne]

/ Hug

 

[Ch0zen0ne]

People, if you haven't heard of chozen, it's only because you didn't play melee at an informed level for long enough. As imo the top 3 jiggz ppl had heard of were mango, king, chozen... and in brawl, Overswarm and Chozen are the 2 ROBs peple agree are the best so far.

Boss8 is insane, but the fact is that mario is just better than people assume.

My problem with this community right now is their INABILITY to do the following.
1. Think critically
2. Research
3. Come up w/ their own ideas.

This is why when someone comes along and posts something you don't expect, even if they give reasons (*cough, chozen*), you don't think, you come up with these ingrained responses that don't show any cognitive function.

I'm not saying I agree with chozen's list (though I actually like most of it...I just think he drastically underestimates a few toons), but at least when I look at it I think about it and question it, see why he says things, and proceed to comment on it after that.

Why the hell don't 95% of you do that? It would make this thread readable again, lead to GOOD debate, not just having to rehash the same things over and over, and in general it would help to inform the community.

re: mario. Because of his cape and fireballs, he *can* be played like pit, except that he doesn't have a wasted move (downB), and he lasts longer. He kills better, and has a better edgeguarding game. Pit is easy to manuever with, and has a better projectile, but why do ppl automatically assume pit=good, mario=bad? It's because we've been telling ourselves sice day 1 that mario isn't good, because he changed from melee, and has a move that works novelly (fludd). Even though he can combo, camp, stop campers, and kill, he's average at all those.

However, in brawl, where disadvantages are move set, being average at everything is better, because it means that there will be some way to respond. In melee even disadvantaged chars could make up for it do to l-cancelling, WDing, but in brawl, disadvantages can't really be overcome, (except by mindgames), meaning a "balanced, average" char like mario is actually better than chars that are great in 1-2 area's but bad at the others...

Now, I'm not saying mario is god, but he's certainly in mid tier, and could rise, if more ppl use him at the same level boss can.

re: "He doesn't look so good." This is brawl. No high level brawl play will look super flashy, as it could in melee. Even in melee, serious games were much different from the same ppl making a combo video. A great example of this would be to watch a few melty blood tournie matches--where you'll go from playing super cautiously to aggressive depending on whether you *need* to win or not.

In brawl, it's all about calculating risk/reward, and knowing when to back off, which comes much sooner in brawl than any other fighting game, meaning top level games will look boring, and great players won't shine, so much as they will simply out-do the other player...so don't say "x doesn't look that good," instead, actually watch the effin match.

This thread is so aggravating

Very quickly.. I would like to say that Mr Viers has earned my respect and approval.

Not an easy feat.. also... specifically what are your issues w/ the tier list that i posted so we can make it correct. I think that several of the posters in this thread probably have constructive things to say in regards to creating a tierlist that actually makes sense.. ie [St. Viers, EmblemLord, Nigerian Star Storm, Kaizo, MetalMonster, Unusual_Rex, ect]

Also.. in case anyone was forgetting what i originally posted...

--->

Top-

Snake
Metaknight
Game and Watch
Falco
DDD

Each places consistently high.. basically this is how each's matchup chart would go just based on tourneys, and toon specific forums...

High-

Marth
Wolf
Zelda
Pit
Wario

At this point we get into alittle more obscure territory.. again we have more consistant placers.. but also varying character choices really bases upon which coast you're from.. Wario from the WC.. Pit from the EC. Marth has alot of KO potential.. but is gimped easily enough to not warrent top tier status... Wolf.. usually lower than Marth in tourney.. and Marth does better against Top Tiers... Zelda does VERY well against the lower tiers, but can struggle w/ some top tier matchups, and go even w/ others.

Upper-

R.O.B.
Pikachu
Toon Link
Mario
Fox

All solid characters but due to some VERY poor matchups w/ the tiers above them.. they do not make the cut for High/Top tier. Generally speaking all of these characters can also be played offensively/defensively, and are outstanding at comboing, but nothing any of these characters has, sets them out from the rest of the cast ahead of them...

Middle-

Ike
Ice Climbers
Diddy Kong
Lucario
Luigi

All of these toons characters are decent/good but can either be gayed, or easily stopped... it is MY belief that most of the mid tier characters are quite easily ***** by most of the top tier cast.. and much of the high tier.

Low-

Link
Donkey Kong
Ness
Peach
Samus

Less solid.. less consistent.. not as good at comboing.. nothing truely broken.. Link is an amazing spammer.. Ness has a nasty Spike/Fair.. Peach's Fair is quite amazing.. GrappleCancels are too good.. DK has the new WoP.... but all in all they just get HORRIBLY gayed by Top/High Tier toons.

Bottom-

Bowser
Kirby
Sheik
Lucas
Yoshi

Honestly this tier, and WTF tier are basically in any order you want... the above five belong where they're at... and the below crap belongs in the trash... quote me say whatever you would like... it doesn't matter.. tourney placings and matchups talk.. not how you "feel" a toon does against the world. That is a silly argument.. Throw out an MK/ROB against ANY of the characters out between bottom/wtf, and i'll see them NOT be gayed... yeah i doubt it >_>

Wtf I'm not even Kidding how dare you-

Olimar
Jigglypuff
Captain Falcon
Sonic
ZSS
Ganondorf
Pokemon Trainer

Right now you're all thinking... dude seriously.. Olimar/ZSS/PT in WTF tier.. well this is why...

first off.. PT is TOTALLY inconsistent.. the opposing player gets a free hit on whatever pokemon the trainer wts to switch to if they don't like.. we'll say Charizard.. secondly... all of the 3 pokemon are HORRIBLY gayable.. PT=EPIC FAIL.

I will MM the best PT in the United States for $5000.00 i'll write out a check, and we can have the tourney director hold the money for us.. btw i play ROB. GTFO w/ that PT sh*t... he is NOT playable. End of story.. EVERYONE can gay them.. it's like watching DDD infinite a Mario.. or an IC player CG a DDD [though that is quite hilarious]..

ZSS.. recovery is such an important factor in competitive smash that it is truly necessary to NOT play a tether toon in order to succeed.. this argument really goes for Olimar aswell.. honestly when Yoshi ***** both of them b/c he can insto-grab the ledge w/ his doublejump Bair'ing either of them during their 2nd jump you know there is a problem here..

For some odd reason both of those tether characters were thought to be "broken" when the game first came out, and then better spammer came along *cough* snake/pit *cough* and olimar bit the dust... then more players began to learn to hit these characters off the stage, and then just GRAB THE F*CKING LEDGE... gg? i'm not quite sure wtf Nintendo was thinking but i've got to tell you.. they ROYALLY SCREWED UP.

But what can you do..

Btw.. all of you telling me that Sonic is amazing, and i should watch Lucky play... well.. Sonic is not good... its like when "Neo" was maining Roy.... just not good at all.. he's even easy to gimp, combo, and CANNOT kill.. no jones. Sonic Blows.

Emblem Lord.. help me out here my good sir...



Good Day Sirs.

Thoughts-concerns-ideas?

Now to address another actually intelligent poster...

A little bird told me you enjoy a well thought out argument. I hope this doesn’t get too long but I would hopefully like to make some points on your chart.

First of all you have both DDD and Falco above Marth. I don’t think emblem lord would agree with you on this. I always picture Marth as fourth on a tier list. Why? Well he does well in tournaments in fact he is right behind DDD and several spots above Falco. Next he has a lot of great matchups, about the same amount as falco and a good bit more that King Dededee. Finally we see that Marth is just good as a character. Good priority, range, and damage and practically all of his attacks. Can approach which is an important skill in a game with a lot of campers. I remember seeing Ken comment that he thinks there is even more to Marth than what is currently being displayed. All of this leads me to believe that Marth is above the characters you put above him.

Dededee’s speed and lack of a lot of good matchups really concerns me when it comes to placing him. I know he is good but I don’t think he is as good as many people give him credit for.

I can agree with your high tier. I could make a few pointers but really I would just be nitpicking.

You main R.O.B. why is he so low? In fact you posted his matchups in the R.O.B. board. You should know how good he is. R.O.B. stacks up well against a large amount of the cast. Not to mention he isn’t doing half bad when it comes to tournaments. He is also a great character overall. I am baffled as to why he went here.

I am disappointed with Pika’s placement. I guess you weren’t impressed by the Anther vs Overswarm matches. Pika isn’t too far off from his most likely spot on the tier list so I won’t get into this.

You put Mario, Fox, and Ike above the Ice climbers? After looking at the Character Rankings I guess I can see why. Ice climbers have a lot more good matchups than all of those characters though. They also don’t seem to have as many flaws. Even if infinite chaingrabbing is tough to pull off these little guys still have so grab combos they can do. I just don’t see why they are so low.

Diddy is surprisingly low also. I will admit his banana tactics were at first overestimated but they are still good. Diddy also still has good matchups against a decent amount of the cast. Not to mention he is the best comboer in the game. He just needs to move up in tournament wins I guess.

Why is Ike so high? Has someone been watching Azen. Even Ike players seem to admit that he isn’t that great of a character. His attacks come out way too slow and are predictable. He seems like one of those characters that you have to play to there strengths while covering their weakness.

Why is Donkey Kong so low? He has a decent amount of matchups even some in the upper tiers. He also has a pretty good tournament record so far.

Olimar in the WTF tier huh? Didn’t fox and Falco have poor recoveries in melee? I am not saying that Olimar is top tier. His recovery does certainly hold him back but it doesn’t put him with the worst of the worst. Olimar has good matchups against a lot of characters. Some of them even top and upper tiers. His grab is one of the best in the game with its speed range and kill potential. His smashes are pretty good also. Overall he is a pretty solid character except for his recovery. He isn’t doing half bad in tournaments either especially for being a “WTF” tier character.

No Sonic isn’t that good but I think He deserves to be a bit above the rest of the WTF tier. I can’t really explain what I have seen in him though.

NEO, is amazing. He beat Ken in a Marth ditto. Held the title of the world’s best Roy. I love watching him beat people who play higher tier characters.


I hope I have done better than the others who have gone "WTF CHOZEN!." I also hope I haven't wasted your time.

Somewhere in the 400 I posted my opinion on how a tier list should be constructed.

Also more people need to realize that Azen is top tier maybe even god tier. Final destination is up there also. I think Random is somewhere along the lines of mid. You do have the element of surprise and the potential good character.

Metal.. i'm still getting back to you, but for now i need to give my roommate my comp /sigh.. OMG WHEN WILL IT END!


Good Day Sirs.

 

[bluebolt]

silly people! tiers are for queers! (if you take them seriously)

eg of taking them seriously. making fun of someone for using bowser or ganon dork (for example)

the good way of using tiers is to show people what is currently the decided best character, and may help others to compete in brawl (even though by the end of the day, its who your best at using)

another reason against tiers is for say, tournament matches with lots of snake, ike and other popular and possibly top or high tier characters

 

[hizzlum]

The top should just be snake and MK, they have been concsistently at the top of tournies and have dominated the metagame at this point, then the next group, which typically falls into the top 8/top4 in tournies and have over all great match-ups(cept DDD) are in order
High tier
G&W-one of the best match-up list of brawl and does well in tournies
DDD-CG wins him tournaments but his match-ups put him slightly down
Falco-Has a CG and teh SHDL and good match ups on all and does well against other high tier/top tier characters but has not done well in the american tournamnet scene(bombsolider is destroying with his falco is japan)he have to wait for some pro to main him for him to win tourneys
Marth-Match-ups are one of the best and consistently gets top4/8 in tounaments more than anyone(cept MK and Snake), I feel as if he wont rise(doubt he will go down) until he starts winning tourneys and not losing in the semis/quarters like he usually does
ROB-like marth, he gets consistent placing,but not a ton of wins,his match-ups are good, but he is a little bit on the slow side of the character spectrum
An upper tier should be established,as it was for the SBR's 5th,6th and 7th melee tier lists, beacuse there seems to be an obvious divide in the two who dominate the metagame(snake and MK) and a group slightly below them(G&W,DDD,falco,marth,ROB) who a lot win/place well in tournaments but not as often as snake and MK.and then there is a gap of tournamentplacing/match-ups under this group(upper tier i.e. Wario,pikachu,wolf,DK,pit,lucario).
This is just my opinion and I feel as if there are more gaps in brawl metagame than it was for melee[(fox,flaco,sheik,marth,peach,captain flacon won almost all of the tournaments in melee, the rest of the cast was considered unplayable in tourneys by most people)

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

silly people! tiers are for queers!

If I were a mod......I think I would ban people on sight for saying insulting and pointless crap like this -_-.