Official BBR Tier List v7

[Esotera]

Sorry to distract you man, I've got finals to do as well. I'll PM you.

/threadbackontrack

 

[Mekos]

Dude who cares what other people think. U have to have your own drive. My favorite melee pro is Amrada. Me and him share very similar views and have a similar mentality about ssb.

Be positive, do your best to help the community, and always do your best when playing. Hatas gone hate

 

[Cassio]

Please stop blaming the community. You think anyone outside the Miami wants Lebron or the Heat to win? Or the Patriots outside NE? Being on top means you have a massive target on your back and that's true for just about anything that has hints of being competitive. If "things like that make it hard for you to really really want to win" then what youre really telling us is that you dont really want to be the best, because these are attributes that go hand in hand. Also what Eddie G said definitely made your situation worse..

And yeah, having motivation after being on top for so long is hard. This isnt particularly anyones fault, but its nothing new either. If new people arent rising up to challenge established top level players then theyre going to get burnt out. I think Apex gave some new life to the game because people realized theres still more to prove.

I don't want to be one of those people who complains about the service the BBR is providing, but it is pretty silly that people who have never even played the game before could potentially damage a char's tier placement. It definitely contradicts the idea that the list only concerns high level play.

That is probably the most player based way of determining tier placement.

Frame data etc. is definitely the most char based.

I think its fine for a first run, and decent enough for top tiers and those who are capable of placing in money. The methods can be improved, but sometimes you have to start somewhere. However its a smart idea to have something to account for characters with a larger base of players.

 

[BSP]

Dre brings up a good point, I never thought about that...hopefully a better method is found.

 

[Claire Diviner]

I noticed Wario took a pretty significant hit this time around on the tier list. Could it have anything to do with his MUs against the current top tiers, including Olimar? I wouldn't know what his MU with Olimar is, but I imagine it doesn't bode well.

Please stop blaming the community. You think anyone outside the Miami wants Lebron or the Heat to win? Or the Patriots outside NE? Being on top means you have a massive target on your back and that's true for just about anything that has hints of being competitive. If "things like that make it hard for you to really really want to win" then what youre really telling us is that you dont really want to be the best, because these are attributes that go hand in hand. Also what Eddie G said definitely made your situation worse..

And yeah, having motivation after being on top for so long is hard. This isnt particularly anyones fault, but its nothing new either. If new people arent rising up to challenge established top level players then theyre going to get burnt out. I think Apex gave some new life to the game because people realized theres still more to prove.

I agree with this 100%. You have to remember, Mew2King, when you're on the top of the world, and you become the face of the Smash community, everyone's going to want to dethrone you in some way, and goodness knows it wouldn't be surprising if those you have lost to defeated you by studying your play habits via Youtube videos. Also, with you winning everything, and having your name everywhere, people will eventually grow tired of you. Kind of reminds me of John Cena in the WWE, the poor guy, but I digress.

What you need to do is take a break from the game and watch videos of your losses, reflect on them, and study them to understand what went wrong and learn from them to become even better, whether you stick with MK or decide to pick up a different main.

 

[Mekos]

That is what I've been arguing this whole time for my character. They tried to say this was created on intense data(matchup chart for example). But the method is flawed and so is the data.

Good post Dre.

@Cassio - I agree. He needs to read Daigo's new book if it is ever translated to English. It's about achieving greatness and maintaining the drive to stay at the top and win.

@M2k- Now that you have edited I agree with that posts. But again don't worry about what outsiders think or people not in the tournament match chair. Basically wear(thanks for the catch player-1. I can always depend on u!) "headphones" all the time haha. And also just fulfill your passion for the game via doubles.

 

[Player-1]

you mean *wear

 

[Orion*]

I think jasons mindset needs work... but I completely understand where he's coming from and agree on a lot of it especially regarding how people view what "gay" is.

 

[Claire Diviner]

That's actually the reason some characters (Meta Knight included) are high tier; because they can play "gay". Just because it's frowned upon doesn't mean it's illegal in competitive play. If it's there to be used, then use it for everything it's worth. Will it win you fans? Probably not. But at the end of the day, assuming one wins using "gay" tactics, whose pockets will be filling with cash prizes?

 

[Esotera]

Well, to be honest, it would be better if we wanted M2K to win because of his hard work, innovation, and fierce representation of the U.S. I like Lebron. I want him to win this year because he deserves it. He's worked for it. It's his time. The logic you used there was not very sound.

Otherwise I agree with your post, Cassio. It's hard as hell being on top. If M2K wants to be the best, the community should not stop him. He can't blame the community, he can only blame himself for not wanting to be the best.

I also agree with what Dre says. More hard game data needs to be used to make these lists.

 

[Eddie G]

Nobody is trying to say that Jason shouldn't do whatever he needs to do to win. What I'm saying is...he shouldn't be so surprised at the fact that he isn't everyone's immediate choice for a fan favorite. It comes with the territory.

 

[Orion*]

no i mean that both the melee and brawl community perception of gay is completely biased.

To take things out of context lets look at melee more, specifically at falcon. He's probably one of the most obnoxious and gay characters in the game... essentially 90% of falcon players do the exact same ****ing thing. dash dance camp for like 58342095832 seconds, throw out random grab/nair, if it hits autocombo to death. Despite people seeing the exact same combos that falcon players do OVER and OVER (so it's nothing new or exciting at this point for the most part) and how obnoxious the character is... you would think it would just be another high tier. Yet for some reason because of the fanboy base for the character everyone gets super hyped absolutely no reason....

Then you have characters like Marth, who essentially has an extremely small top level player base and is probably one of the hardest characters to use in melee at high level due to his blind spots. His gameplay despite being so dynamic at one point, has reached a plateau and become linear in comparison to many other top tier characters and for a few years now needs to be refreshed... The character soley at this point in the metagame relys on hard gimp reads and if he can't kill you with gimps then essentially he has to get a very good tipper read or he will have problems killing.

His rewards for hits many times are solid if you play perfectly (like most of the top tier cast), however his ability to maintain safe while doing so offensively and defensively many times are not so good and just rely on smart baits with good spacing.

Yet the community still perceives this character many times, and the way jason plays him (despite how rusty he is...) to be gay.

theres no particular logic behind it.

 

[Scatz]

The only thing I find from Melee Marth to be gay is the grab range (even though it's logically correct) since everyone elses is messed up and practically behind them (Falcon's). Still though, massive truth in Orion's & M2K's posts.

 

[Claire Diviner]

So by the way it sounds, it seems people are biased against M2K then? It seems to make sense, considering he was and probably still is the face of competitive Smash Bros. It's said he was the reason MK is as dominant on the tier list as he is now, though that's just what I've heard.

 

[Cassio]

What we want to be true and what actually is true are two separate things. Yes it'd be nice if a persons hard work and dedication was enough to gain support, but it isnt.

And its true for everything. People hate what they consider 'dirty' or 'gay' tactics', and they hate when people win over and over again. This isnt exclusive to smash, thats the reality of being a competitor. To take jeers personally or blame others not only hinders personal progress but can make the situation itself worse. If how others view you is that important to you either become so good that you can play however you want (Mango) or be prepared to start losing before the targets removed from your back.

Sort of a side comment, but personal image can go a long way towards gaining support as well. Id hate to see lebron win anything because hes a cocky mofo who feels entitled to success before hes achieved it. Compare him to someone like Micheal Jordon, who won a lot but had a ton of class so people didnt really mind as much.

 

[Eddie G]

To be fair I like seeing Ally win but...it's Ally. Friendly guy, respectful, good with multiple characters, etc. How your carry yourself certainly does go a long way no matter what it relates to in life.

 

[z00ted]

Cassio's post could potentially destroy a universe.

 

[Mekos]

That's actually the reason some characters (Meta Knight included) are high tier; because they can play "gay". Just because it's frowned upon doesn't mean it's illegal in competitive play. If it's there to be used, then use it for everything it's worth. Will it win you fans? Probably not. But at the end of the day, assuming one wins using "gay" tactics, whose pockets will be filling with cash prizes?

U can say that all u want. But that is selfish thinking. That overall isn't healthy for the community. I give props to m2k because sometimes he doesn't play super "gay" for that simple fact. Not much we can do tho because that is how brawl singles is...oh wait Japan doesn't play that way do they (not sarcasm)?

My fiance an outsider to smash, said this to me one day as she was watching a tourney match, "Why do people want mk banned? That ice-climbers chain grab is way more lame and really stupid".

@Cassio - MJ was extremely cocky my friend but I get yer point.

 

[Claire Diviner]

U can say that all u want. But that is selfish thinking. That overall isn't healthy for the community. I give props to m2k because sometimes he doesn't play super "gay" for that simple fact. Not much we can do tho because that is how brawl singles is...oh wait Japan doesn't play that way do they (not sarcasm)?

I know it's selfish thinking. I never did say I practice it myself, only because I prefer going more all-out offensive. What I am saying though is that in battle, people oftentimes need to do what's necessary to win. In competitions where so much is at stake, there's seldom ever any room for chivalry. It's a matter of doing what's right vs. doing what's necessary.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

mk needs to be legal and m2k needs to be able to squash people who play as gay as i do. i go into every match to camp, the entire match, and time characters out who are easily susceptible to my "perfect planking" but with pit. only MK really beats pit in the air (marth being second hardest, then lucario and rob are aerially even for the most part, then pit pretty much owns the air in this game).

 

[GOofyGV]

well what is gay?
I always thought gay was a man who loves male's
In brawl everybody has his own way of having respect or disrespect.
and I always thought that having respect for everyone is the best way out even if it is not what you like to see.

I mean an mk that flies away every match.
you can do a few things
you hate the player because he runs away
you have respect for the player because he plays that way for his own reason
or you don't think anything about it.
I do respect everyone as long as they respect me.

and sometimes I just find it sick how people react just because they don't like how someone plays

 

[Schlupi]

Man, this list has pissed a lot of people off. Also, the blatant misuse of the word gay in this thread is astounding.

Anyways, I have always hated playing against Metakight players. I have mained Pikmin & Olimar since day one of the game's release from Japan, and he was always my most problematic character due to Olimar's recovery. However, I found many ways around a Metakight's tactics. I love that he has been banned, but don't get me wrong, it's not like he's an unstoppable force. If you monitor the Marvel community it's very similar... Some characters have such obvious advantages (like Sentinel in MVC2) but there is always a way to overcome them with the proper technology. When you start complaining about how "gay" a certain tactic may be (camping, rushing, chain grabbing, etc.) no matter how unfair or cheap or game breaking it is, you just need to find a way to overcome it. If you know what you're up against (when every player has the same "gay combo") it's just more of a reason you should be prepared to face just that.

I dunno if you guys say the recent fight with Ageojoe vs F Champ in Marvel 3... Dark Phoenix is the LAST thing you want to see in the game. She's nigh impossible to defeat, however, he found two amazing techs with Frank West (Funny Face Crusher) and Rocket Raccon (Spring) that rendered her completely useless. C'mon, guys, learn to adapt to the metagame.

 

[Linkshot]

To be fair I like seeing Ally win but...it's Ally. Friendly guy, respectful, good with multiple characters, etc. How your carry yourself certainly does go a long way no matter what it relates to in life.

This post so much. Ally is a great guy to hang around. He's easy to socialize with and willing to entertain. Ally knows how to play Smash Bros, not just how to win. I feel like M2K may have lost touch with the spirit of Smash Bros: Hanging out with your friends, flinging a few items around, calling bs on the random occurrences but having a good laugh about it. Exercise that random button. Chaos may have no place in competition but it's a big part of friendly fun.

Maybe I'm way off base, but it's good to have a reminder now and then. We could do with big names pulling out alternate meta tier lists, too. Keeps things fresh and fun. Just keeping this semi-relevant I'd personally be interested in exploring a "default settings" meta, using 4-ways (crowd control matters!) as a basis.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Sort of a side comment, but personal image can go a long way towards gaining support as well. Id hate to see lebron win anything because hes a cocky mofo who feels entitled to success before hes achieved it. Compare him to someone like Micheal Jordon, who won a lot but had a ton of class so people didnt really mind as much.

It's not really a side note for the point being made, though. It's the heart of the matter, and it's why I don't like a fair amount of top players in this game.

 

[Orion*]

What we want to be true and what actually is true are two separate things. Yes it'd be nice if a persons hard work and dedication was enough to gain support, but it isnt.

And its true for everything. People hate what they consider 'dirty' or 'gay' tactics', and they hate when people win over and over again. This isnt exclusive to smash, thats the reality of being a competitor. To take jeers personally or blame others not only hinders personal progress but can make the situation itself worse. If how others view you is that important to you either become so good that you can play however you want (Mango) or be prepared to start losing before the targets removed from your back.

Sort of a side comment, but personal image can go a long way towards gaining support as well. Id hate to see lebron win anything because hes a cocky mofo who feels entitled to success before hes achieved it. Compare him to someone like Micheal Jordon, who won a lot but had a ton of class so people didnt really mind as much.

M2K is one of the least cocky top players in terms of how he approaches himself. He's not socially a genius but like... what do you want. If you take the time to meet the guy and just treat him like anyone else he's fun to hang out with.

I do agree that community influence should have no influence on how you play. It's no john for performance, but that doesn't change the fact of what it is. Have you ever been cheered against by a large crowd? I'm pretty confident most of the community have had overall little or light personal interactions with trash talking or cheering against them... It's not a fun feeling, and when it's constant it's really hard.

What has helped me get over it is that if I have 1, just one person I know even they aren't saying anything and just chilling by me. But I know they are rooting for me and honestly think I can win, even if theres like 100+ people cheering against me I can try and tune into that positive energy.

To be fair I like seeing Ally win but...it's Ally. Friendly guy, respectful, good with multiple characters, etc. How your carry yourself certainly does go a long way no matter what it relates to in life.

I like seeing allys snake win x)

 

[PSI Nexus]

well what is gay?
I always thought gay was a man who loves males.

Funny, I thought gay meant happy. My mistake.

 

[Mew2King]

dude, I'm NOT cocky. I honestly do think that if im playing my best i can destroy anyone (except i think im really really wack vs olimar) but I don't go around being cocky or saying it or talking **** or any of those rude remarks, I just say what I think when I'm asked and I give or can give reasons as to why if someone asks or if I feel the need. That's just how I am. Ally is a really nice person and one of my best friends but even he is cockier than I am; most people are. You guys really don't know me at all if you think I am a cocky person. The only reason I'm socially awkward (am i? I thought I wasn't anymore) is because my ENTIRE LIFE I have had no friends, sat alone at lunch (during all middle/high school), and just played video games alone most of my life. That's all I did my ENTIRE life, but I'm no bad guy in ANY way at ALL, which is a LARGE misperception everyone has of me and it's really annoying.

And about the lebron thing, outside of cockiness, I was the EXACT same as him. I wanted to be that USA hero guy and that's why I put that USA tag on at Apex 2010. I was hyped, and therefore I was playing SUPER well cuz of it (it makes me play A LOT better idk why just does). Then when people started wanting me to lose I feel like I just lost all my hype, lost all my aggressive-skill, and just played scared and was really upset that USA would do that to me because I wanted really badly to be that guy to win for the nation. After that happened, I'm ashamed to even be a part of the country anymore. Maybe it seems silly to you guys but it surely was not to me.

 

[Mekos]

olololol oh I love M2k!! haha

M2k u are cocky when it comes to doubles tho haahhaaha.

@Sol Div - I agree buddy. Just me personally the way I am. My morals and values I couldn't do some of the things people do in smash. I'm not down talking players who do. I just kinda am the same person in everything I do in life. For example my boy Malcom plays wario and does not grab release to smash abuse people even tho players do it to him. I have sooo much respect for that guy!!. He doesn't do it because of his personal morals.
This is just a video-game but meh it's why I focus on dubs where the gayness isn't so blunt and abused.

And it is just a video game but the small things matter in life. What people would do here they might do in real life. Bad ethical actions are frequent in the business world for example.

 

[infiniteV115]

I think M2K is a pretty cool guy

 

[PEACE7]

Man I was so pissed when everyone was cheering against m2k bunch of traitors lol

 

[Player-1]

for the record I was cheering for m2k vs brood...

 

[da K.I.D.]

I mean as long as he's not allegedly skeetin in dudes beds and getting our game booted from mlg, m2k is a pretty cool guy, I think. (Not sarcasm)


He's not nearly as socially difficult. To be around as he was before, but he still is dumb and naive and has his little personality quirks,, but like he said, none of that even remotely makes him a bad person.

But anybody can admit, if someone wants a reason to root against m2k, they really wouldn't have to look very hard.

 

[Cassio]

M2K is one of the least cocky top players in terms of how he approaches himself. He's not socially a genius but like... what do you want. If you take the time to meet the guy and just treat him like anyone else he's fun to hang out with.

I do agree that community influence should have no influence on how you play. It's no john for performance, but that doesn't change the fact of what it is. Have you ever been cheered against by a large crowd? I'm pretty confident most of the community have had overall little or light personal interactions with trash talking or cheering against them... It's not a fun feeling, and when it's constant it's really hard.

What has helped me get over it is that if I have 1, just one person I know even they aren't saying anything and just chilling by me. But I know they are rooting for me and honestly think I can win, even if theres like 100+ people cheering against me I can try and tune into that positive energy.

I think even the most experienced competitors are affected by cheering. So I agree. What I dont agree with is M2K's attitude (at least in the posts he just made) that its something specific to smash, shouldnt be expected to happen, or that its specific to him personally as opposed to his position.

As far as personal demeanor, cocky was just an example moreso than attributes for m2k specifically. I dont really perceive him as being cocky either. I dont really want to put him on blast with anything specific, so as another example for smashers in general; aesthetics such as being well groomed, dressing well, smelling nice can go a long way towards building your personal image. Yeah people can argue that bs shouldnt matter, but reality is it does even if its subconscious.

Aethetics is just another example among other things though. Courtesy, helping others, sense of humor, being active, being humble, etc. can all affect the image you portray. It comes more naturally to some vs others, but its something anyone can improve on given enough active effort.

 

[Mekos]

facepalm* Cassio!! lololololol

I see what he is talking about. I've read multiple places that smashers are known to have bad hygiene and be disrespectful to venues.
It's a stereotype that needs to be destroyed...or maybe it is the truth.

 

[Sol9000]

well what is gay?
I always thought gay was a man who loves male's

Funny, I thought gay meant happy. My mistake.

IT DOES...

 

[Mew2King]

I mean as long as he's not allegedly skeetin in dudes beds and getting our game booted from mlg, m2k is a pretty cool guy, I think. (Not sarcasm)


He's not nearly as socially difficult. To be around as he was before, but he still is dumb and naive and has his little personality quirks,, but like he said, none of that even remotely makes him a bad person.

But anybody can admit, if someone wants a reason to root against m2k, they really wouldn't have to look very hard.

that truely NEVER happened dude, that's one of the most annoying rumors ever

and MLG was a really sad story, I didn't even know there was a rule against it, I was just depressed cuz I was doing playing really badly that day compared to usual, so I told adhd (who STILL never paid me anything) to split with me and he agreed and id just mess around and let him win. Had i known there was a rule i would have NEVER done that. Smash was my life and just before my mlg dallas ban (1-2 weeks before the tournament to be more accurate) was my absolute prime of this game by far and I'm so mad I couldn't enter cuz I really think that i most likely would have won it. Ironically, the reason there was a rule in the first place I found out later, was because Ken and Chu split with each other after I beat Azen so they could take me out at MLG Orlando back in 2006. You have no idea how depressed I was from that (dallas), I didn't even want to enter anything anymore. I moved to georgia with my friend, stopped college and everything, and just sat around hardly doing anything, wasting my life (ex-gf cheating on me 5 times is another reason but I do not want to get into that). Just so you guys know though, MLG was dropping smash anyway because they lost money from Nintendo not allowing it to be live-streamed (that's where most of their money comes from, and the only way they could be able to profit from hosting smash, but even after months of trying throughout 2010, MLG was still unable to convince nintendo to give them the legal rights to stream the game at their tournaments). I was used as a scapegoat and that sucked.

to respond with smelling thing, yeah I will fix that. I cannot smell flowers even if they are right next to my nose. I don't know why, and sometimes I can smell them, but very very rarely and only a few kinds. Idk the reason for that.

as far as helping people, i do that ALLLLL The time but i don't rly do it on the boards as much (but i still do it a lot esp in melee), I get messaged from like 2,000 smashers and I help most of them most of the time. I've been helping people since 2002, back when all I was known for was my SSBM statistics list, 3 years before I started melee tournaments.

 

[Player-1]

m2k just did it in his sleep and didn't realize he did it, obv.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I mean as long as he's not allegedly skeetin in dudes beds and getting our game booted from mlg, m2k is a pretty cool guy, I think.

He's not nearly as socially difficult. To be around as he was before, but he still is dumb and naive and has his little personality quirks,, but like he said, none of that even remotely makes him a bad person.

But anybody can admit, if someone wants a reason to root against m2k, they really wouldn't have to look very hard.

It's really not that simple. There's plenty of stuff that I've experienced and people I would trust with my life have experienced that make me dislike some top players. Lots of stupid, inconsiderate things that make me very frustrated with them, and make me dislike them as a person. No, I'm not gonna name names, because this isn't the place for that.

I have a habit for cheering for the underdog. It's just nice to see a match be closer than what most people may have thought. The top player already has some love; I'd rather give it to someone who's reaching up there or is doing big things in a way that no one has seen before.

 

[Luxord]

I don't understand the money-usage ratio system.

If I advance char X's metagame and have good results, why should the tier list not reflect that simply because 100 other X mains suck?

The amount of people using X doesn't change what the current peak of its meta is, and doesn't decrease the significance of that character's best results.

I thought the whole point of the tier list was to only consider high level play, yet then they use money-usage ratios, which means the lowest level of play affects tier placement.

A character's true potential would actually just be based purely on frame data, priority, physics etc. 'Current meta' would refer to the ATs etc. currently known. People always theorycraft about mix ups in MUs, but that is really a player v player thing, not char v char.

I agree with this post completely Dre, but somewhere earlier in the thread someone said that the tier list is a reflection of "how much a threat this character is in a tournament" or "how 'scared' you should be facing this character in a set"

Following that logic if there's just 1-4 top level players with a character (such as PT which has what, Reflex, Mata, Aposl, Coontail?) then they should be low on the list because chances are, facing a PT in tournament MOST likely won't be one of those players, thus the character isn't as much of a threat.

It's unfortunate this is how it is, but yeah

It's not really a side note for the point being made, though. It's the heart of the matter, and it's why I don't like a fair amount of top players in this game.

Truth^
I have definitely felt you have a lot more fun playing smash than various other top levels Reflex, one simple example: taunting after a kill. Usually frowned upon because you seem either "douchey" or "cocky" especially if you lose after taunting all match, but you don't seem to care at all.

 

[Mekos]

Ah good post Luxord. I never thought of it like that before. It makes sense that way.