Official BBR Tier List v7

[bubbaking]

@V: To be fair, I was never arguing that Sonic's fsmash (or dsmash) isn't bad. My statement was, "'Slow' smashes are not indicative of a bad moveset. Most characters have slower smashes than these, I believe."

 

[pidgezero_one]

let me tell you a thing or two about characters with bad smashes

 

[bubbaking]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Aren't two of Ness's smashes the epitome of unsafe on whiff/block? Yet, I'm sure that most people see Ness as having a pretty decent moveset, better than Sonic's maybe.

 

[SoulPech]

let me tell you a thing or two about characters with bad smashes

After I tell you a thing or two about Characters with bad smashes.

 

[infiniteV115]

Fair enough.
Lol @ fridge & soulpech...at least Jiggs has a decent DACUS length to help her usmash.

And at least Jiggs looks really ****ing funny when charging her dsmash

 

[pidgezero_one]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Aren't two of Ness's smashes the epitome of unsafe on whiff/block? Yet, I'm sure that most people see Ness as having a pretty decent moveset, better than Sonic's maybe.

yeah, all of ness' aerials are good moves

i make a point of using smashes though because i'm a stubborn ****er

 

[infiniteV115]

Ness has one of the best movesets in the game.
imo aka

 

[pidgezero_one]

not gonna lie i kinda agree
the only move of his i actually consider useless is pk flash

 

[Grim Tuesday]

How do you even gauge how good a moveset is

like do you just give all of the moves to Mario or something?

 

[pidgezero_one]

for me it's more like i don't think any of ness' moves is always outclassed by another move, there's considerable situations where each one is useful

 

[infiniteV115]

Pretty much that.
Ness has moves for every situation and purpose, and most of them are really good at what they do.
PKFlash is trash though (pretty much only good in dubs, or when you break a shield)
And usmash/dsmash/ftilt/dash attack seem pretty mediocre

 

[blacktwins13]

yeah, all of ness' aerials are good moves

i make a point of using smashes though because i'm a stubborn n***er

 

[SoulPech]

Fair enough.
Lol @ fridge & soulpech...at least Jiggs has a decent DACUS length to help her usmash.

And at least Jiggs looks really ****ing funny when charging her dsmash

True that Jiggs has a decent DACUS. But...Her D-Smash. her F-Smash.

:sob:

 

[pidgezero_one]

i mostly use the yoyos for mixups only or when *****es wont get off my *** and need some behind action, dsmash is also a stage spike but it's hard to pull off, ftilt isn't great but i've used it as a KO move when my opponent keeps shutting down bair/grab, and dash attack is only useful for the occasional followup

but yeah those moves are pretty situational

that totally isn't what i said you dunderhead!!!

 

[blacktwins13]

that totally isn't what i said you dunderhead!!!

 

[ShadowLink84]

His dair helps him remain unpredictable if you ask me,

The landing lag is massive.
Literally, one of the best things you can do is just stay directly under Sonic.
What's he gonna do? Dair?

since it changes his momentum so drastically and quickly. Spring > dair is good for mindgames and keeps you from actually knowing where Sonic is gonna be. Don't look at dair as an attack. Look at how it controls his movement. It adds to his mobility, not the converse. IMO, it's one of the better stall-then-fall dairs.

Only the inexperienced think spring > Dair is good for mindgames.
Ask any person who plays Sonic.
Its a terrible thing to do.
First, it marks your landing spot.
Second, Springing removes your specials. Which means less aerial mobility
Third, it lets people landcamp you.

It is a very, bad tactic that only works on people who do not have muh experiened against the blue machine.

Edit: And "slow" smashes is not indicative of a bad moveset. Most characters have slower smashes than these, I believe.

Indications are not the whole, it is why they are indications.
I can literally go over every single move if you want and explain how bad they are.

 

[-LzR-]

While Sonics fsmash is slow, noticeable animation and laggy and unsafe on anything except hit, it's still really really really weak for such a move which is why it sucks so much.

 

[[FBC] Papa Mink]

Somehow i missed alot.

But i wanna say, puff's Dsmash is called

"The Ballerina"

I'm out.

 

[Judo777]

Lemme tell you some characters with spectacular moves.

1. MK
2. Luigi
3. Marth
4. Falco
5. DK
6. Ness
7. Rob

These aren't in order. But for real Luigi has like one of the best movesets in the game, if he could move a little faster he would be insane.

 

[Neon!]

Imagine sonic with DK's moveset

 

[pidgezero_one]

imagine jigglypuff with kirby's moveset

Spoiler

in smash 64

 

[bubbaking]

Lemme tell you some characters with spectacular moves.

1. MK
2. Luigi
3. Marth
4. Falco
5. DK
6. Ness
7. Rob

These aren't in order. But for real Luigi has like one of the best movesets in the game, if he could move a little faster he would be insane.

Huh? How is DDD not on this list. He has an awesome moveset that is only held back by his mobility. The same way you say, "Luigi has like one of the best movesets in the game, if he could move a little faster he would be insane," I could probably also claim that DDD's moveset would be godly. With even just DK's mobility, I would gladly trade a bunch of moves for DDD's aerials and tilts, let alone his throws.

Edit: Bair alone should put DDD at, like, #3 or 4 on that list.

The landing lag is massive.
Literally, one of the best things you can do is just stay directly under Sonic.
What's he gonna do? Dair?

Doesn't dair end before Sonic hits the ground if he does it from high enough? I've seen Sonics dair offstage and still survive.

Only the inexperienced think spring > Dair is good for mindgames.
Ask any person who plays Sonic.
Its a terrible thing to do.
First, it marks your landing spot.
Second, Springing removes your specials. Which means less aerial mobility
Third, it lets people landcamp you.

It is a very, bad tactic that only works on people who do not have muh experiened against the blue machine.

I'm pretty sure I've seen KID mentioning the spring > dair strat somewhere before as a legitimate thing to do. I'd probably have to search around for it a bit...

Indications are not the whole, it is why they are indications.
I can literally go over every single move if you want and explain how bad they are.

Yes, please do. And also make sure to note how they are bad when placed on Sonic's kit as a character. If you can do that, then you've just proven that Sonic is a bad character who is probably way too high on the tier list. For instance, you'd have to prove that Sonic's nair and bair are bad, even though they can be combined with spindash for true combos that rack up a lot of damage and kill.

 

[Espy Rose]

Imagine sonic with DK's moveset

Brb gotta fap.

 

[Attila_]

His tag.

He's been using it since before he knew about the competitive scene, to my knowledge.

*******.

i told you he was a fake!

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Huh? How is DDD not on this list. He has an awesome moveset that is only held back by his mobility.

HA

HAHA

omg

lol

oh wow you really had me going for a moment there

/dededemain

 

[RaptorTEC]

This thread.

 

[Tesh]

Imagine sonic with DK's moveset

Which specials would he have? Cuz DK's recovery sucks, but I would live to have spindash to up b. Being able to run past people then use DK's Fsmash...

His Fsmash isn't a great move, but it does compliment his moveset better than quicker, more versatile smashes that have less range. It gives him a good answer in situations where quick disjointed attacks might leave him in a sort of "checkmate". Its so slow it requires a read to use, but its better than squirtle's or something.

 

[Shaya]

A mobile dedede would be a jigglypuff/sheik augustus molester love child.
The melee iterations of both, obviously.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

A mobile dedede would be a jigglypuff/sheik augustus molester love child.
The melee iterations of both, obviously.

how mobile are we talking? I can actually create such an abomination if i really must to prove it would do little for him.

 

[ViperGold42]

how mobile are we talking? I can actually create such an abomination if i really must to prove it would do little for him.

oh that's real classy for that guy to mention child molesters. but ddd is no problem.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

considering who it is, it's not surprising.

regardless, i will actually create a more mobile version of dedede if just to prove the point.

I just need baselines for mobility.
Run speed?
walk speed?
max air speed?
air acceleration?
air deceleration?
fall speeds?
neutral b walking speed?
down-B walking speed?

in case people haven't realized, it's more than possible to take these things beyond simple theorycraft, and when something about my main is said that is that wrong (lol at the idea of anything other than Dedede's BAir, UTilt, DTilt, or CG being objectively "good" in the context of Brawl) there's not much else that can be done but actually edit Dedede to give him high mobility to prove said person wrong.

Dedede is a character plagued with low mobility and a moveset that simply doesn't do much for him. He has a strong ability to edgeguard and high survivability, the former of which is helped by a chaingrab that forces the majority of the cast offstage should they even think about touching his shield. That's really it. His moveset is generally slow and awkward outside his tilts. This is the character with the single slowest jab in the game after all, at frame 12.

 

[Shaya]

While a slight cop out, I was proclaiming the pontifex maximus with the notion of a smaller frame to fit in with the whole mobile character thing (especially as a better jump squat is a must).

Now, make Dedede about Wario size while retaining ranges/disjoints, and then just make everything mobility wise in the air similar to Wario (with G&W's aerial deceleration ability) and then give him Sheik ground mobility (particularly to dash to shield time) and an MK forward roll and Lucario backroll. Give his dash attack cancellable particulars so he can dacus as well as boost grab and slightly tighten his turn around animations and fox trot/dashing animations and voila, the ultimate molester (tl;dr, d3 down throwing MK would be sheik melee down throw).

Give him some meta-knight biased sakurai love to his jab, dtilt and ftilt just to round it off. Oh and making his fair not have lag on fast fall would totally be a mobility buff.

If a character like Dedede can react to EVERY CHARACTER'S tech movements, he will be bonkers.
If a character like Dedede can dash to power shield with a lot more ease, with faster oos options he will be stupidly bonkers (you know how every time Snake does his sexy dash to power shield utilt because he can? well guess what, Dedede cannot do that in even a quarter of the situations snake can).

Dedede keeping momentum while side bing would also be preeeeeeeeeeeeeetttttttttttttttty helpful.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Dedede's Dash Attack is in fact cancellable into USmash. DACUS is global. He simply has no momentum on his dash attack to make a dacus actually useful.

Size is not mobility.
Speed buffs to attacks that do not move him are not mobility.

But ok, will do.

Someone pull me up the frame data on MK and Lucario's rolls please?

Grim i see you there and i swear to god if you manage to turn this into discussion about what a good character jigglypuff is...


Ah, I missed the edit. The issue with Dedede's side-B is simply that he can't accelerate during his side-B, so his rather high air friction slows him quickly.

 

[| Big D |]

Dedede is perfect don't touch him >.<

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Which is why he only wins primarily due to his weight, BAir, and his CG

Dedede is an awful character.

 

[-LzR-]

Just think if Dedede didn't have a crazy grab range and a chaingrab. You could counter him by just shielding everything. Dumb character design is dumb.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

It's dumb character design because he doesn't lose to shield? o_O

 

[-LzR-]

No but the only reason he is good because he got a huge grab range and easy chaingrab that leads to an edgeguard. Other than that he sucks.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Remember in 2008 when scrubs complained about Dedede and you were like "don't get grabbed?"

Weird, looks like people finally took that advice and Dedede isn't that great now.

 

[Luco]

... invalid, based upon the region they play in is something only an individual who is emotionally driven in their argument would do.

I see the shoe is on the other foot now...

Sorry, haven't been here in a bit, was gonna reply to other stuff but since we're talking about the D bird, he happens to be the one character in Brawl I cannot play well, as in... I can lose to casual players with him. I can use other heavy-weights, Bowser, DK, no problem. But DDD? I think the best kill I ever got with him was on Brinstar, where a TL Dair-ed in to the lava next to me (I was safe) while I was sucking in. He gets hit but doesn't move because he's in my 'sucking' range and gets pulled over behind me to get damaged by the lava again, at a percentage that he dies at.

A little more serious, doesn't DDD only really have like, grab, Ftilt, a few aerials and specials? Dunno where he should be on the tier list but...he's an interesting character, for sure.

Oh and he has that trick with snake. That's always fun. ^_^