Official BBR Tier List v7

[-LzR-]

Jigglypuff is lucky to have what Sonic has. Great mobility and recovery with a crappy moveset. It's better than no mobility and crappy moveset like the rest of the bottomtier, aka Link.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Sonic's moveset isn't that bad. It would be better if he had another kill move. lol

 

[-LzR-]

Really? I though almost all of his moves are **** but are okay because he can mixup so much and he is so mobile.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Well, the mobility is a factor in his moveset. I mean, Captain Falcon's moveset would be pretty good if he had Falco lasers or something. A single factor can change a lot.

 

[-LzR-]

How would a laser make him any better?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Have you ever played against Falco?

 

[Gardex]

Falcon + Lasers would be amazing.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Falcon would be really cool to play as/against if he had a laser.

His mix-ups with jab/grab/utilt, silly strings that only work due to the safety that laser affords him as a fall-back option (so people can't just throw their limbs at Falcon), etc...

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Guys stop it you're making me sad

 

[-LzR-]

Well obviously any crappy character with one of the best projectiles in the game would be better but why exactly would it be especially useful with Falcon?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

SFP did say "Falco's lasers or something"

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I chose falco's lasers because in competitive play, C. Falcon effectively has no neutral special ability and giving him the best neutral proejctile would obviously make him better.

Like, take Sonic's mobility away and he loses his endless mix-ups, making him total trash. But his mobility is there, so you have to count it for something, and usually it matters.

You can't say "the only thing making this character's moveset is his speed" really because his moveset was presumably designed with his ability to get from one place to another really quickly in mind. Sonic was probably also designed with Smash Balls in mind. He has an easy time taking one and his Final Smash is hilariously good.

Please don't turn this into a discussion about smash balls. I'm, like, begging you guys.

 

[Iota]

Wario man is the best final smash imo.

 

[MarioNPinkie]

c falcon does have a gun in his holster they can give him lasers lol

 

[-LzR-]

But... But... He would lose Falcon Punch D:

 

[SoulPech]

Ugh. son of a ***** I missed Puff talk again D:

 

[DMG]

NO TIME, MEWTWO IS ON TV!

*Overlord*

 

[Espy Rose]

Sonic's moveset isn't that bad. It would be better if he had another kill move. lol

His moveset actually is pretty bad with the exception of downB.
His mobility is the only reason it works out.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Up air and bair are 2 of sonics best moves and compared to the rest of the cast, sonic up air is bottom tier (like, the weakest in the game i think) and bair is low tier (worst than most characters in the start up and power dept.)

Luckily down b and his throws are amazing

 

[bubbaking]

It's not terrible by any stretch of the word, it just isn't a good basis for the match-up.

I could go into depth as to what he did wrong, that'd probably be more useful than just going "lol no", but cbf.

Well, any factual video evidence is better than no evidence at all. I, for one, greatly appreciate Neon's footage and it definitely cleared up some things about the MU in my eyes. It was pretty obvious that Zac was playing around at multiple points. If I were to combine this vid with what I already know about G&W (I play the char) and what I've heard (from you, Mink, and Pech) and seen (from vids), I'd say that Jiggs:G&W looks to be -3.

G&W has 15 frames inbetween each dtilt, just so no one needs to look it up.

There are 15 frames between active hitboxes?

I think she is terrible. I'd only move her a few spots up the tier list, and I think several of her MUs are worse than what is listed.

The main difference between the way I see the character and the way everyone else seems to see her is - everyone thinks she loses to these very basic, repetitive strategies - to clarify, she's terrible at any level.

I believe she only loses (most of the time) to creative, somewhat complex strategies - this time she's only terrible at top level, because she always has the crutch of people not knowing the MU, and that is very significant for her viability imo (especially as a secondary, or co-main).

The thing is, any of the H+ tiers could be making the same exact arguments that you make in any of your above paragraphs. You just happen to be more vocal about it. Any H+ Tier main could have the "crutch of people not knowing the MU," so technically, all of Low Tier is better than people think. Also, if "several of her MUs are worse than what is listed" but only a few are better, then how does she deserve to move up a few spots on the tier list?

 

[Myollnir]

Down Tilt
Frame Breakdown:
• 1-5 Startup
• 6-15 Hitbox out
• 16-25 Cooldown

Frame Summary:
Duration: 25
Hits on frame: 6
Hitbox duration: 10
Cooldown: 10
Shield stun: 2
Shield advantage: -17
Shield drop advantage: -10

Jigglypuff's DA comes out on frame 5, so a quick dash attack comes out on frame 6, which is enough to punish the D-tilt on block.

Jigglypuff's Dashgrab comes out on frame 10, so frame 11 with the dash, so it will work since spotdodge is only invincible Frame 2, but you have to buffer the dashgrab from the shield drop.

She could also F-air OoS, but I believe it's not the best option since you want to keep it fresh (unless the G&W is at kill %). I think D-air could work as well. If you're shielding from behind, then you can B-air [you can't dashgrab in that situation though].

Or if you don't want to shield you can just jump and do a well-timed aerial to punish him.

Jigglypuff is very frustrating to play with. That's a char that I like to play (she's my low tier, with Bowser), but you can't afford to make ANY mistake AT ALL. Very tough to play her, even though she's quite a simple character.

 

[bubbaking]

To me, it sounds like Jiggs trying to keep fair fresh for the kill is like DK or DDD trying to keep bair fresh for the kill, but that's just me. Puff's fair kills?

 

[SoulPech]

The Fresh Prince of Puff-Fair kills at like 100% onstage. Less if it isn't DI'd Properly.

 

[bubbaking]

But isn't that a move Jiggs uses frequently, along with her other aerials? It sounds to me like it would be hard to keep fresh, similar to Peach's fair and fthrow.

If you're shielding from behind, then you can B-air [you can't dashgrab in that situation though].

Why can't Jiggs dashgrab when facing away? Isn't the frame data the same?

 

[Myollnir]

You can't buffer a reverse dash if you're a human.

 

[bubbaking]

What's the difference between buffering a reverse dash and buffering a forward dash?

Really? I though almost all of his moves are **** but are okay because he can mixup so much and he is so mobile.

Well, Sonic's moveset is part of the reason why Sonic is so mobile. Seeing as how Sonic's mobility is most of why Sonic is any good to begin with, I feel like that would translate to Sonic's moveset not being garbage.

Well obviously any crappy character with one of the best projectiles in the game would be better but why exactly would it be especially useful with Falcon?

Falcon is also really fast on the ground. If he had Falco lasers he might even be able to use them in some ways better than Falco can.

 

[Myollnir]

Buffer a dash forward : you have 10 frames to input forward.
Buffer a dash reverse : you have 10 frames to input back, down and back.

 

[bubbaking]

I'm sorry that this is so lost on me but......why do you have to input "down and back"?

 

[Juushichi]

But isn't that a move Jiggs uses frequently, along with her other aerials? It sounds to me like it would be hard to keep fresh, similar to Peach's fair and fthrow.

It is hard to keep fresh, but I mean... it can happen, lol.

Between playing vs Puff extensively and seeing (said Puff) Pech play verses people, I can say that it's certainly possible.

 

[infiniteV115]

Why can't Jiggs dashgrab when facing away? Isn't the frame data the same?

You can't buffer a reverse dash if you're a human.

What's the difference between buffering a reverse dash and buffering a forward dash?

Buffer a dash forward : you have 10 frames to input forward.
Buffer a dash reverse : you have 10 frames to input back, down and back.

I'm sorry that this is so lost on me but......why do you have to input "down and back"?

If you want to buffer just a backwards dash, all you have to do is flick back on the analog in the buffer window.
However, if you're trying to buffer a backwards dash grab, and you do so by flicking back + pressing Z in the buffer window, you'll buffer a turnaround standing grab.

Basically, if you buffer backwards dash + something, it does turn around + that something. Try buffering a forward dash attack (flick analog + press C-stick down in buffer window) and you'll dash attack.
Try doing it backwards and you'll turnaround dsmash.

To get around this, pressing back --> down --> back + grab will buffer the turn around and THEN the dash.

 

[Player-1]

flicking back on the analog in the buffer windows buffers a turn around

 

[pidgezero_one]

I went to last stock with poke's marth in a friendly yesterday as puff and i don't know how to use puff

clearly this means puff should be higher in the tier list

 

[bubbaking]

Ah, I see. So since you have to buffer a turnaround and then a dash, does this add a frame to backwards dash actions?

 

[infiniteV115]

id k

 

[ShadowLink84]

Well, Sonic's moveset is part of the reason why Sonic is so mobile. Seeing as how Sonic's mobility is most of why Sonic is any good to begin with, I feel like that would translate to Sonic's moveset not being garbage.

Down B and Side B are what helps create mobility.
The rest of his moveset s garbage.
15 frame forward smash.
10 frame downsmash
13 frame Bair.

Fair and Nair are both 5 frames I believe, but the hitbox on both is sub par and DI destroy Fair.

Dair is just laughable to be honest.

Best aerial is his Uair which, if it were a kil move would do SO MUCH FOR HIM.

 

[bubbaking]

His dair helps him remain unpredictable if you ask me, since it changes his momentum so drastically and quickly. Spring > dair is good for mindgames and keeps you from actually knowing where Sonic is gonna be. Don't look at dair as an attack. Look at how it controls his movement. It adds to his mobility, not the converse. IMO, it's one of the better stall-then-fall dairs.

Edit: And "slow" smashes is not indicative of a bad moveset. Most characters have slower smashes than these, I believe.

 

[infiniteV115]

Slow attacks are bad if they're not safe on block/whiff.

That's why Sonic's fsmash is not that good whereas MK's fsmash, ZSS' dsmash, Lucario's fsmash (at high aura) etc are good. His is easily punished on block/whiff while the others are very safe.

 

[bubbaking]

Also, Sonic's aerials, especially nair, become better when combined with spindashing. That's why you can't just look at the moveset by itself. You have to look at it in the character's kit as a whole.

Edit: Even going by that, V115, I believe most characters still have two out of three smashes that are unsafe on block and whiff. MK, ZSS, and Lucario happen to be good characters, btw.

 

[infiniteV115]

They do, but they're not slow.

Fast attacks that are unsafe on block/whiff are still pretty good, cause they're fast.
Slow attacks that are safe on block/whiff are good, cause they're safe.

Slow attacks that are unsafe on block/whiff are bad (eg Sonic fsmash)

Fast attacks that are safe on block/whiff are REALLY good.

The argument was that his fsmash is bad. It is bad. Just because some top tiers have some bad smashes (Snake fsmash, Wario dsmash, MK usmash) doesn't mean his fsmash is any better.

I mean it's not TERRIBLE, it's not ridiculously easy to punish on block/whiff and it's not terribly slow, but yeah it's bad.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Well, any factual video evidence is better than no evidence at all. I, for one, greatly appreciate Neon's footage and it definitely cleared up some things about the MU in my eyes. It was pretty obvious that Zac was playing around at multiple points. If I were to combine this vid with what I already know about G&W (I play the char) and what I've heard (from you, Mink, and Pech) and seen (from vids), I'd say that Jiggs:G&W looks to be -3.

I don't think anyone would say that a single friendly involving someone who doesn't main Jigglypuff should hold too much weight, but you're entitled to your opinion. Just keep in mind that a lot of the things you learnt from that video could be completely wrong. While I agree with -3, it still needs to be -3 for the right reasons.

There are 15 frames between active hitboxes?

I'm not sure what active hitboxes means, but it has 10 frames of cooldown and 5 frames of start-up, soooo....

The thing is, any of the H+ tiers could be making the same exact arguments that you make in any of your above paragraphs. You just happen to be more vocal about it. Any H+ Tier main could have the "crutch of people not knowing the MU," so technically, all of Low Tier is better than people think. Also, if "several of her MUs are worse than what is listed" but only a few are better, then how does she deserve to move up a few spots on the tier list?

Actually the reason Jigglypuff is different to the rest of H Tier is because she thrives much more on the lack of MU experience. She is also just better overall, match-up wise and such, but meh.

She deserves to move a few spots up because while I think several of her MUs are worse, I also think several are better. I was just trying to show that I'm not completely optimistic about everything about this character.

But isn't that a move Jiggs uses frequently, along with her other aerials? It sounds to me like it would be hard to keep fresh, similar to Peach's fair and fthrow.

Using fair for spacing is pretty much no different to using bair for spacing, often worse actually.

Fair staling will only really be a problem if you go for a KO with fair, and then mess it up and they survive. I also use fair in lieu of bair in some situational circumstances that are based on %/momentum/all kinds of hullabaloo.