Official BBR Tier List v7

[DMG]

Zac looked mad rusty at the beginning lol. Then he started going into Zac stuff that I remember.

 

[infiniteV115]

Also it doesn't matter if the infinite is legal when the DDD lands the grab and doesn't infinite off of it ._.

 

[RaptorTEC]

@Pidgezero I stuck around after getting double 3 stocked my first set and getting ***** by Falco vs Yoshi my next tornament twice.

 

[pidgezero_one]

so what? some people do stick around. i've stuck around after getting destroyed too, it doesn't mean we're the majority or that the system we go by is the most conducive to keeping the game alive

 

[bubbaking]

But the system we go by is what keeps the game competitive. How else would we do it? That being said, I am completely in favor of 'beginner tournament' side events or whatever you call them.

Also it doesn't matter if the infinite is legal when the DDD lands the grab and doesn't infinite off of it ._.

Redundant, but i will quote it anyway to show I am not the only person thinking this stuff:

i know i'm late but, will has beaten several DDD's even with the infinite legal, and has lost to DDD's that will not infinite him (that might only be me)

i hesitate to call it unwinnable but idk i don't like absolutes

i would never use anyone EXCEPT will though as a basis for DK's matchups LOL

 

[DMG]

AM Bracket

Everyone that doesn't make it out of pools.

 

[bubbaking]

What does AM stand for?

 

[infiniteV115]

Amat eur

 

[bubbaking]

Yep, I support that. Some other tourneys I've seen make the 'beginner tourney' so that one can only enter if it's his first time at that venue and the TO doesn't recognize him or know of him, but that's probably way more subjective.

 

[shadowdude]

i think lucas should be higher on the tier he's a really good character,his smash attacks are powerful and have long range except fsmash witch can reflect projectiles and ko around 80%. his air attacks are quick and good combos,his dair hits every time and he also has good projectiles.also good at approches and defense.some of his problems being light witch can be avoided by getting good at dodging powerful attacks and the other problem being his recovery witch used right can punish edge hoggers badly.with this it makes no sense that their is'nt more lucas players out there.

 

[bubbaking]

Yeah, I know. I say the same thing... Lucas players! Where you at?!?

 

[infiniteV115]

Lucas is not good at approaches, he gets screwed over by grab releases (hard), his strings are avoidable because his moves are fairly easy to SDI and his powerful moves (bar fsmash) are fairly avoidable.

And he seems like a very hard character to master.

I do think he's underrated though.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Being hard to master shouldn't have any bearing on tier position though.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

For those who care, I kept my promise...

Neon (Jiggs) vs UTDzac (GW)

This is not how you play Jigglypuff. Video irrelevant. Also Neon you think nair is her best move because you don't know how to use bair properly.

EDIT: Don't even care about the double post.

 

[RaptorTEC]

Did Gheb show up yet?

 

[infiniteV115]

Well this tier list took into account things like the amount of money the character makes, as well as the money/popularity ratio. They affected tier position.

So being harder to master is going to lead to fewer of the Lucas players doing very well and MAKIN IT RAIN AND ****. So lowered amount of money and lower money/popularity ratio.

 

[[FBC] Papa Mink]

Neon i thought that was actually a pretty good video.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

It's not terrible by any stretch of the word, it just isn't a good basis for the match-up.

I could go into depth as to what he did wrong, that'd probably be more useful than just going "lol no", but cbf.

 

[Neon!]

This is not how you play Jigglypuff. Video irrelevant. Also Neon you think nair is her best move because you don't know how to use bair properly.

EDIT: Don't even care about the double post.

It was just a friendly.

Considering that zac is still a high level GW and my jiggs is mid level this is probably the best footage we're going to get of this matchup lol.

My opinion on the matchup is +3 GW btw.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Yeah, I know, sorry. Just the fact that you linked it so bluntly just kind-of implied "this is it guys, discussion over". And I know that was kinda the joking-tone you were going for, it's just annoying because it will be taken seriously.

I'm keen for a game with Zac now though...

 

[Neon!]

I would have to play a few more games with him before I really solidify my opinion. I wasn't trying to imply that match was exemplary of how the matchup should be played.

 

[[FBC] Papa Mink]

1. UTDZac is mad good.

2. I think it was moderately accurate. If jiggz was spamming bair all Gw has to do is catch the pattern and punish.
I mean look how early he died.

 

[C.J.]

jab->dash attack was awesome

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Spamming bair? Nah mang

Neon just gave up a lot of space with his pointless SH air dodging, punishing with nair instead of bair or grab, he lost a lot of confrontations due to unfamiliarity with the situation, he air dodged to the ground recklessly, reckless pounds which shouldn't have worked, etc...

I don't know how else to put it other than "Neon isn't a Puff main."

If I had to sum up the entire game in one sentence though, it'd be that neither Neon nor Zac played reactionary enough, which is understandable for a friendly, but anyway.

EDIT: I agree with CJ, love that string.

 

[Neon!]

It was hard to take seriously, I burst out laughing at 1:37 when I tried to dtilt with jiggs and he killed me haha.

 

[Tesh]

I skimmed a few pages back and all I have to say is that pools should be done whenever possible.

Its always baffled me when people think pools shouldn't be done at small tournaments (when the disgustingly long time sets take won't kill the entire process). With pools you can easily seed your top 10% of players away from each other and let the chips fall where they may. Lesser players get the chance that same day/weekend to prove they don't deserve to face M2K round 1.

 

[Gardex]

truer words never spoken.

everybody knows that someone showing up for their first tournament ever is probably not going to actually learn anything (well, besides "i don't want to come back") from getting 3-stocked by #1 on the regional PR, but nobody likes to admit it

and people wonder why newbies don't stick around...

This is why we have pools.

 

[DMG]

So... Mewtwo

Discuss

>

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

What does Jiggs do when GaW spams dtilt like Zac did at one point in that video? lol

 

[Grim Tuesday]

She can SH bair inbetween the dtilts afaik
She could dash grab inbetween as well, I'd imagine, but that's way more of a risk if he decides to use something else

 

[DMG]

If he is spamming it repetitively 2-3 times in a row or more back to back you can run in and PS it

 

[ぱみゅ]

@SfP (earlier, about consistency):
Your post actually made me happy.
As a show, maybe it is good to save the most expected matches for the finals.
But it makes no sense on doing so if you have no mathematical basis to seed players.

@SfP (about the Dtilt): Pound?

So... Mewtwo

Discuss

>

I reckon HE is not coming back.

Spoiler

and I am glad.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Pound could be shielded on reaction most of the time in that situation, which is why I didn't mention it. But it's definitely plausible.

G&W has 15 frames inbetween each dtilt, just so no one needs to look it up.

 

[ぱみゅ]

I think it would only be possible if you know he's going to do another Dtilt.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Well unless he plans to do dtilt > up-b mix-ups all game, that isn't going to be a problem.

Cause bair will beat all of his other options out of dtilt lol

well it won't beat shield, but it will pressure him at least.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

OK, if PS is a viable solution then cool.

The hitbox for dtilt is rather large, if you try to bair over it you'll probably get hit by it, same with pound. If you try to jump over him you're going to eat something. PS->Fair or something is probably a good solution.

I asked because it looked like Neon didn't know what to do, and to be honest, if I were him I wouldn't have known what to do. LOL

I think that's the first time I've ever had a sense truly for how limited Jiggs' options can be. :\

 

[DMG]

Where it gets really hard is if G^W doesn't spam it or does mixups out of it. Most of his moves are beatable as Jiggs if you are there at the time for the CD, or know what his next move will be and get there during startup. Any variations to that and you have to play a big mental game of predicting and also near pre-emptive positioning to compensate for that. It's hard lol

 

[Grim Tuesday]

EDIT: DMG is completely spot on. Jigglypuff can beat G&W's options one by one individually, the problem is the mix-ups. No single move beats Puff, I had to stress this when people were like "lol DDD's bair".

--------

SFP: Yeah you get used to it, lots of characters can do **** like that to her.

You don't bair or pound over it, you time them, like...

For bair you jump during the last 5-ish frames of the hitbox, then fall into G&W and bair.
For Pound you do the same basic thing, but instead of jumping you start the Pound (takes 13 frames to come out iirc) - both are the same concept; wait outside dtilt's range and then punish during the 10 frame cooldown (+ whatever move he decides to do next).

But it's interesting you say that you would've had no idea what to do in that situation. That's exactly what I mean when I say that people just don't understand Puff well enough to say things about her, but it seems like you can because of how basic she looks - if that makes sense?

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I guess, but I don't claim to know much about Jigglypuff. I think it's pretty fair to say she's kind of bad, based just on the conversation we're having now, but I couldn't tell you what I'd do in any given situation either. For the record, Jiggs is on the list of characters I try really hard not to talk about.

It's fair to say that Jiggs lacks a straightforward approach to many situations and ends up having to be very, very creative to work around them. That doesn't automatically make a character bad (ZSS is kind of in the same boat and does OK), but it might when said character only has 5 functioning moves. In that way, I think we had Jiggs figured out pretty early on; she might have good players and how bad she is is up for debate, but she's definitely not good. She seems made of weaknesses and entirely lacking in any functional character-defining traits.

At least her taunts are cute.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I think she is terrible. I'd only move her a few spots up the tier list, and I think several of her MUs are worse than what is listed.

The main difference between the way I see the character and the way everyone else seems to see her is - everyone thinks she loses to these very basic, repetitive strategies - to clarify, she's terrible at any level.

I believe she only loses (most of the time) to creative, somewhat complex strategies - this time she's only terrible at top level, because she always has the crutch of people not knowing the MU, and that is very significant for her viability imo (especially as a secondary, or co-main).