Official BBR Tier List v7

[Neon!]

People say things like "DK experience doesn't mean crap unless it's against Will" well then what's the point of an MU ratio or MU advice if it only applies to one person in the world? How does that help the 99% of the Smash community who play at a level that these ratios and tier lists apply to?

Hate to admit it but this is kind of true, Infinity (MK), ALSM (MK), and Denti (Oli) all have tons of experience against me but I'm only a mid-high level DK. They all have beaten me consistently but all three lost to Will in money matches.

 

[da K.I.D.]

More combo extender assists!

I cant tell for sure but it kind of looks like youre looking at the system on a very shallow level, like the only combos you see are wolverine, sentinel, wesker and doom.

like, magic series - air magic series - otg/assist - relaunch magic series - otg to super. that what youre describing and thats essentially... the most basic combo and the only characters that function that way for their good combos are the characters I stated. everyone else has jump loops, fly combos, non-super jump combos, bounce combos. the extended combos in that game are very indepth. like, go watch a Dante, Morrigan, Jill, Hulk, or Chris combo video. the stuff you can do is highly varied.

as far as your point about why didnt they just make characters be able to do everything themselves, first of all, they did with doom and thats why hes fkng stupid. second of all that would take all of the variety out of the game.

If everyone could do everything Doom does, the game would be lame and boring because even it would get stale.
But instead you have characters like Spencer, who is absurdly strong, and is guaranteed to kill anyone who gets hit by him. But he needs a strong projectile assist to get in or else his approaches get blown up for free. but which projectile assist you give him depends on what you want to do and who you like, you can give him doom, deadpool, iron man, sent, chris... and then each one of those characters affects how you play your DHCs, your TACs, your Team Supers, how you use your X-factor, who you pick as a third, and so on. the system is a lot deeper than you give it credit for.

But then lets take a character like Viewtiful Joe (my main), unless hes fighting against a devoted keep away team, he doesnt have a problem with projectiles, his is good and his mobility is solid. but he has stubby limbs so sometimes he gets out spaced and cant open people up, he needs a lock down assist to keep people stationary for a second to run mix ups. something like chun lis legs or franks shopping cart or ryu/akumas tatsu. Alternatively he can focus on upping his damage and run a combo extender OTG like wesker since he really doesnt have one of his own

And then you have someone like trish, who is a devoted run away/keep away, she is good at avoiding people but she cant do it for ever, so she needs an (invincible) GTFO assist to protect her. Examples would be haggar lariat, Hulks up charge, dantes jam session. and then each one of those comes with different ways to implement it for combos, and DHCs and so on.

That leads to highly varied teams at the end of the day, because even the same character can play vastly different based on the assist behind them. A V Joe with Ammys cold star is going to attack a matchup very differently then someone that only has Morrigans meter assist giving him bar.

Even then it only makes characters with good assists a necessity. Characters with crappy assists are totally useless unless they are toptier by themselves.

you say this as if its a bad thing.

some characters are bad in the game but have amazing assists (Hsien-Ko, pre-patch Phoenix Wright, Rocket Raccoon, Iron Man)
Some characters are near broken on point, but have unusable assists (Wolverine, C. Viper, Zero)
Some characters are solid in both (Dante, Ammy, Deadpool)

Some characters are made to be on point (Wolverine, Firebrand, Tron Bonne)
Some characters are perfect in second spot (Morrigan, Storm)
Some are designed to be anchors (Phoenix, Strider)
And some have abilities that let them do well in any position (Virgil, Doom, X-23.

finding new and interesting ways to mix and match and combined all of these aspects is what makes the game great.
However, sometimes this is overlooked because the top few characters have too many of the best characteristics (or just TOO good at a few), and not enough of the weaknesses. Doom has amazing rushdown, near uncatchable run away, damaging (for combos) AND safe (for utility) DHCs and the best assist in the game.
Zero can run some of the hardest to block mixups in the game, and then he gets to kill you meter positive and then do the same to your next character this is a damage problem, not a Zero problem)
Virgil just has too much in the speed/range combo and Spiral Swords give him too much control of the pacing of the match, as well as making his combos too good. (Also a damage problem.
Spencer just does to much damage. (unscaled up grapples are ********)
Wesker is similar to doom in that he has too much of everything (albeit to a lesser degree.

So when it comes to Doom and Wesker and Virgil, they have so much utility, it logically doesnt make sense to not have at least one of them on every team. But outside of the top 5 or so, when the system works as intended. Its actually REALLY well done.

 

[DMG]

I forgot to mention Fly/Unfly, that stuff is pretty cool. A lot of the more extended aerial combo's are interesting.


Gameplay before hits and combos is very deep. I do feel that a lot of combos are incredibly repetitive and that the "balances" put in place to stop some of the more lopsided combo damage/duration/etc are encouraged to get bypassed either by having your assist shore you up when people naturally start to recover sooner or giving the main character direct traits that fly against the concept. It just feels contradictory to design the game so that when you OTG as Wesker and at a certain point they would recover too quickly, that you just call the assist and keep going. I like the idea of assists adding or relieving pressure, instead of being used as a glue to keep a combo going. I guess that's the point I'm trying to make. Like no one is impressed that you landed the Launcher did your combo, did OTG and the assist came with his trade mark "GOTCHA!" and you kept going. Using Haggar at the right time and somehow catching the opponent and his assist is hype. Pressuring someone beforehand with the assist is great. Being "Dial-a-Combo" is not.


It's all IMO, and I enjoy Marvel quite a bit more than these recent posts would let on. I just feel that aspect in particular is dumb and people get all hyped over it instead of being impressed with the neutral game with positioning and excellent blocking and the pre-combo pressure that goes on. Not the same 15-20 seconds of Launch OTG BnB combo that everyone's seen 100 times (same with some of the Doom Footdive stuff too honestly, but everyone has plenty of hate over Doom as it is lol)

 

[Steam]

I played marvel for awhile, then realized "wow this game is dumb".

I dunno, I don't really like a game where spacing doesn't matter a whole lot and most of the roster can pretty much touch of death you. the general concept is good though.

 

[da K.I.D.]

i could say that everyone having ToDs makes it fairer, ala Smash 64. but meh.

even I agree damage needs to be tweaked.

and dmg a lot of times its a give and take. You get the sweet combo extender assist but you have to give up the assist the helps in the neutral and allows you to get the combo in the first place.

 

[Steam]

it helps with balance overall, but it makes the game a lot less fun (IMO). especially when most of the time in marvel it's just someone regurgitating the same combo. In smash things are generally more situational, and after 64 there's DI to worry about, which makes getting 0'deathed in melee feel a lot more fair.

 

[da K.I.D.]

speak for yourself on that last part.

melee is stupidly unfair.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Touching on the subject of Mikeneko and Marth, certain players from West Coast believe part of his success lies in the fact that the region isnt terribly experienced with that level of Marth play, which I also believe is possible. Keep in mind this opinion comes from a region with a long history of strong Marth players. The same thing tends to be said of other up and coming Falcos and Olimars, lol.

Was that post even necessary?
I mean.... seriosuly now?

 

[Naridax]

^More necessary than your reply. (Or this post.)

 

[Juushichi]

All that Marth(character people don't play)/Falco/Olimar experience and still can't beat Low/Mid Tiers and the only region that consistently gets bopped by both.

Go figure.

WC being the best region for vs Olimar is highly debatable. Not so much for Falco. It's not even arguable for Marth, but... I mean, there's like 3 Marths in the US anyway.

 

[ShadowLink84]

speak for yourself on that last part.

Melee is stupidly unfair.

wombo combo oh oooooooooooh!

 

[bubbaking]

Is there a forum for sg?
I wanna learn basic combos and approaches with parasoul

The forum for SG is probably Shoryuken, which is probably also the main forum for most of the popular standard 2D fighters.

What fighters do need are more strictly tailored limitations or offsets to certain combos. Doing less damage as the combo goes on is fine and they tend to get that right. However, how many times you can OTG someone or bounce them against a wall or xyz loop component tends to get thrown off. Or the limits in place get bypassed for the stupidest reasons, like it just so happens that XYZ move is considered a "strong" knockdown and those don't count towards the regular knockdown limit so you do the standard combo into a regular OTG. Then as they would normally "get out", you hit with the strong knockdown so they stay grounded and the game doesn't help them as you DHC or keep ****** them. Or the counter gets reset/doesn't matter because your OTG leads into a wall bounce. Or you use your assist to make up for it, because say after you OTG them for the second time they naturally recover faster than your followups and the combo would end there. To remedy that your assist comes out, they hit quickly after you OTG them and if it's a multi hit move your opponent gets stuck there as you recover and plan a combo that will work that frankly shouldn't have. Or god forbit the assist can scoop them up and place them in a helpless state where they can't recover airborne.

If people aren't going to get quicker wake up options/rolling/etc, then please don't let stuff slide on the combo front that clearly doesn't feel right.


(Mostly aimed at Marvel/similar)

I know this was aimed at Marvel, but I just wanted to note that SG did a pretty good job of restricting ungodly combos, especially with its recent patch.

Uhm, Parasoul is known for her damage output from her insanely long combos featuring silly stand heavy->back+forward light->miscellaneous moves loops and extremely long juggles based on good tear placement. Definitely not a magic series character, at least prepatch.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=frkAMKXW3bo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvgXb3uxwSA

One of the best things about her is how insane her damage is off of a switch in conjuction with Napalm pillar being one of the best assists in the game.

I never said Parasoul doesn't have long combos or high damage output. In fact, with a set of ground and air launchers, I'm sure she should be able to pull off long strings. I don't play Para at all, actually. I'm just talking from what I've observed Jam doing with the character. I don't even know if it's a magic series that he's doing. I just know that her overhead mixups are annoying and that when he feels like being lazy, he can just do some BnB short combos into "Take the shot," the easiest of which being grab > "Shot." The only char in the game that I know doesn't regularly have long combos is Peacock.

I tried my hardest to get into Marvel, but I realized the game is literally a joke on competitive level. The game is absolutely ridiculous. As if Capcom gave up even trying halfway there.

IMO, X-factor is what breaks that game. That and chip damage being such a prevalent factor in so many MUs. Level 3 X-factor Dormammu can just chip you to death with multiple repetitions of "Run, RUN!"

And DMG, the combo system in Marvel is actually great. Possibly the best one out there. Because of all the different move properties, it allows people to get incredibly inventive and creative with their combos to the point, where each person has a different combo depending on their team. Thats why its such a great spectator game. The only real problem is thatthe health is too low/damage too high and the combo scaling isnt harsh enough.

If they wanted to patch the game again, they could easily make it great. Nerf x factor damage (keep the speed tho) fix the risk/reward of TACs. Tweak missiles assist.

But the way combos get hyped up in current fighters now, i agree that there should be some form of megacrash in every fighting game forever

I think the way X-factor cancels any type of lag one is in no matter what is kind of lolzy and scrubby. It means you can never actually CQC pressure your opponent safely, especially if either of you is on your last character. I mean, I know someone could say, "Well, just save your X-factor for those instances," but then other instances come up where I'd say it's smart to use X-factor early. For instance, you're being chipped to death and you need a way to guard against it, or you just caught your opponent with a Happy Birthday.

I just think X-factor is way too over-centralizing in Marvel.

Edit: I have anchor Doom and you know how I beat people who are better than me? I just stick in the corner and chicken block. When they hit my block with any CQC attack in the game, I just X-factor guard cancel > bthrow > OTG > stupid Doom combo or Level 3 super if I just feel like finishing them off right there. It's incredibly stupid and braindead and it works. The only way the opponent can avoid it is if he X-factors himself (if he still has it) and then after the ensuing tech battle, during which I switch from bthrow to fthrow, I'm perfectly safe. The only 3 results that can happen are:

1. I actually fthrow the opponent, which leads into dash > triangle jump > M > f.H > Doom combo or 2 triangle jumps > H > S > Doom combo.
2. Hard Kick hits the opponent and I follow with a Doom combo.
3. The opponent blocks Hard Kick, which is fine because Hard Kick is safe on block.

 

[Cassio]

All that Marth(character people don't play)/Falco/Olimar experience and still can't beat Low/Mid Tiers and the only region that consistently gets bopped by both.

Go figure.

lol, let us be proud of the 3 MUs we know

kyokoro I was late to the conversation happening a few pages ago, Im just relaying a possibility.

 

[-LzR-]

@Bubba
Thanks for the Dormammu tip, if I ever play the game again, I'll try spamming some pillars in Xfactor. He is one of my mains.
And does the direction of the throw affect the direction you have to tech it?
And I think there are plenty of reasons why the game isn't very good. Being able to do so damage means matches can be ended with like 5 reads and the less reads there are the bigger the odds of a crappier player to win. And chip shouldn't be so big, especially not in Xfactor. I shouldn't die for blocking.
/Brawl discussion

 

[bubbaking]

Well, I'm actually talking about the big fireball that follows you. That attack should seriously be a level 3 or something, even though he already has one. It's just too good to simply be a level 1. But the fire beam super does a whole crapload of chip too. The pillars probably do too. Dormammu as a character just does too much damage. It's a large reason for why he's top Top Tier (I think top 5). He out-zones even Morrigan, gets 0-to-deaths on almost everyone, has ridiculous setups, and he does sooo much chip damage.

The direction of the throw for most chars controls the throwing animation and the properties of the throw. The two throws are basically two entirely different moves. For instance, Doom's bthrow launches his opponent straight up into the air behind Doom and then he falls with hard knockdown, so it's extremely easy to OTG with it. However, if you whiff the throw, you get Hidden Missiles, which is extremely unsafe. If you fthrow with Doom, you launch the opponent across the screen, again into hard knockdown. This throw is a lot harder to follow up. You have to either perfectly time two triangle dashes into M > S or do dash > triangle dash > M > f.H (more lenient timing but less damage and hitstun to work with). However, if you whiff it, you get Hard Kick which is safe on block.

 

[-LzR-]

Oh you mean Stalking Flare. I dunno much about it, but I think the fact it doesn't do so much damage and has a lot of startup means it's fine. Chaotic Flame though is crazy.
And yeah I know that about the throws, I was just asking if when trying to tech the throw, does the direction you input matter?

 

[bubbaking]

One of my friends kinda sucks at Marvel. He was beating people better than him with anchor Dormammu that had 5 bars built up. Level 3 X-factor > FIVE Stalking Flares > GG. But Chaotic Flame is crazy too. Dorm is just crazy.

Oh, no, the input doesn't matter. Just input any sideways direction + H and you should tech any normal throw just fine regardless of which one it is.

DI should be a fighting game standard. It adds so much depth to combos as long as it is implemented properly.

Just wanted to point out that a lot of people liked, and still like, SSB 64, yet that game had no DI and not even wall-techs.

 

[da K.I.D.]

The difference between people who are good and bad at marvel.

I know this was aimed at Marvel, but I just wanted to note that SG did a pretty good job of restricting ungodly combos, especially with its recent patch.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzYDMPmguV0
nahhhh son. the IPS got broken about a month after the game came out. thats the reason everyone stoped playing it. the ips didnt work right, and double and parasouls assists were too overcentralising

IMO, X-factor is what breaks that game. That and chip damage being such a prevalent factor in so many MUs. Level 3 X-factor Dormammu can just chip you to death with multiple repetitions of "Run, RUN!"

1. chip damage is what prevents runaway teams from being too strong. the chip damage in this game is actually perfect.
2. if you have an invincible super, or a teleport, you can punish stalking flare easily.
3. if youre good at pushblock, you can negate a lot of the damage.
4. against someone like haggar? yea, hes SoL on that, but most of the actual good characters in this game can actually do something about it. its risky though sometimes, so usually the smart option is to jump into it, and mash buttons really hard.

I think the way X-factor cancels any type of lag one is in no matter what is kind of lolzy and scrubby. It means you can never actually CQC pressure your opponent safely, especially if either of you is on your last character. I mean, I know someone could say, "Well, just save your X-factor for those instances," but then other instances come up where I'd say it's smart to use X-factor early. For instance, you're being chipped to death and you need a way to guard against it, or you just caught your opponent with a Happy Birthday.

theres actually a number of ways to beat x factor canceling. the easiest of which, being 'dont use laggy normals on your opponent'

I just think X-factor is way too over-centralizing in Marvel.

Its supposed to be, its a core game mechanic of the game. overcentralizing is only bad when it pertains to a move or tactic that only one or a few character can use. a system mechanic thats available to everyone being overcentralizing doesnt really mean anything. Its like getting mad at Tekken and saying "Tag Combos are overcentralizing." like... duh. thats how the game was designed.

Edit: I have anchor Doom and you know how I beat people who are better than me? I just stick in the corner and chicken block. When they hit my block with any CQC attack in the game, I just X-factor guard cancel > bthrow > OTG > stupid Doom combo or Level 3 super if I just feel like finishing them off right there. It's incredibly stupid and braindead and it works. The only way the opponent can avoid it is if he X-factors himself

1. I play V-Joe and Morrigan, good luck timing that correctly when Im rushing your ish down with triple hit air normals.
2. I can just throw you if all youre doing is blocking.
3. invincible super beat your attempt to grab
4. going to the corner doesnt really save you from all the characters that can teleport behind you in the corner.
5. Snapbacks are generally one frame and beat any button that someone throws out after an X factor cancel.
6. Half of zeros moveset is multi hit attacks, you cant x factor guard cancel him. not only that, but if you do catch him doing something randomly laggy, all he has to do is let go of a button to blow up anything you do.
7. If im winning and youre running away, Im going to do the same exact thing I do in brawl and just run away until either you approach me, or time runs out.

like, what youre saying is a good option. But its just that, one good option that can easily be countered by a half dozen other options. The game is actually a lot deeper than people give it credit for, thats another reason people keep playing.

random and reads and guessing right gets you wins. stupid and braindead gets you exposed by players that are actually good at the game.

(if he still has it) and then after the ensuing tech battle, during which I switch from bthrow to fthrow, I'm perfectly safe. The only 3 results that can happen are:

1. I actually fthrow the opponent, which leads into dash > triangle jump > M > f.H > Doom combo or 2 triangle jumps > H > S > Doom combo.
2. Hard Kick hits the opponent and I follow with a Doom combo.
3. The opponent blocks Hard Kick, which is fine because Hard Kick is safe on block.

the proper method to beat a tech throw battle is to tech and then up-back.
that way, I chicken block the hard kick, and when the ground cancels my blockstun, all of a sudden your move isnt safe anymore.

@Bubba
Thanks for the Dormammu tip, if I ever play the game again, I'll try spamming some pillars in Xfactor. He is one of my mains.

What youre suppose to do is, dark matter (the fingernail thing, Forward H) to pillar or teleport behind them, then fish hook (air S). if youre just going for chip, mix between dark matter to pillar, and dark matter to charging hands, and if they everry get close to you, you either do level 3 hand charge release (usually you want 3 reds for the big explosion, or 2 reds 1 blue for Meteors, they are good because they come out frame 1 and dont go away if dorm gets hit) or throw out the giant ball of fire super (thats the Run, RUN that bubba is refering to)


A

nd does the direction of the throw affect the direction you have to tech it?

no

And I think there are plenty of reasons why the game isn't very good. Being able to do so damage means matches can be ended with like 5 reads and the less reads there are the bigger the odds of a crappier player to win. And chip shouldn't be so big, especially not in Xfactor. I shouldn't die for blocking.
/Brawl discussion

But thats what makes Smash players great at Marvel, our reads are amazing.
and i agree, you shouldnt die for blocking, if youre blocking correctly. and sometimes the best defense is just killing them before they get a chance to hurt you.

 

[ぱみゅ]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzYDMPmguV0
nahhhh son. the IPS got broken about a month after the game came out. thats the reason everyone stoped playing it. the ips didnt work right, and double and parasouls assists were too overcentralising

tbh, that's a 5-level, Multi Tear thing.
In the new patch, specials with the same motion but different levels (236+P, for example) count towards the anti-infinite system.
There were also tweaks to the Assist system, so basically, the game post-patch is very different.
I mean, Mike Z himself is working on it, if he ever noticed something like that, he definetly would've done something, and he did.
Their main problem was the Reverge Labs drama and other out-of-game stuff.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Oh trust me, I know the whole story, Ive been following every aspect of this game for 2 years now.

imjust saying the ips didnt work pre patch and it made the game really degenerate and bad

 

[bubbaking]

theres actually a number of ways to beat x factor canceling. the easiest of which, being 'dont use laggy normals on your opponent'

This is wrong IMO. I main Taskmaster and his best way of making strings safe on block is to cancel Shield Skills into Sharp Sting. I'm not sure of the exact frame data, but it's either positive on block or a really low negative number on block. Either way, it's nonpunishable by the entire cast. However, it is child's play to just X-factor guard cancel and grab the move. This is Taskmaster's ONLY safe move that he can string reliably into without creating 'holes' in his strings, so now, if Taskmaster wants to pressure someone safely, he has to either have X-factor or not do it at all. I'm speaking from experience because this has happened to me way too often. John12346 just loves to camp all day in the corner and if I actually decide to go aggro on him, he just guard cancels and there goes Task.

Its supposed to be, its a core game mechanic of the game. overcentralizing is only bad when it pertains to a move or tactic that only one or a few character can use. a system mechanic thats available to everyone being overcentralizing doesnt really mean anything. Its like getting mad at Tekken and saying "Tag Combos are overcentralizing." like... duh. thats how the game was designed.

It's a 'scrub factor' that makes it way too easy for worse players to come back from a deficit with little work and few reads. I'm not against comeback factors. I actually like them a lot and think they should be implemented in most fighting games. However, it's bad when a certain mechanic rewards scrubby or bad play over good play. This was a major problem with Ultras in SSF IV. Ultras reward you for getting hit (on top of the Super meter gain that you're already receiving) and you can use that Ultra to deal all the damage that your opponent gave you back to him. In other words, the Ultra mechanic rewards a player for being hit, when that should never be a thing to look forward to. The Super meter is enough of a comeback mechanic, IMO. Likewise, X-factor should not cancel ALL lag and also equal a dead character (or team).

 

[da K.I.D.]

This is wrong IMO. I main Taskmaster and his best way of making strings safe on block is to cancel Shield Skills into Sharp Sting. I'm not sure of the exact frame data, but it's either positive on block or a really low negative number on block. Either way, it's nonpunishable by the entire cast. However, it is child's play to just X-factor guard cancel and grab the move. This is Taskmaster's ONLY safe move that he can string reliably into without creating 'holes' in his strings, so now, if Taskmaster wants to pressure someone safely, he has to either have X-factor or not do it at all. I'm speaking from experience because this has happened to me way too often. John12346 just loves to camp all day in the corner and if I actually decide to go aggro on him, he just guard cancels and there goes Task.

I just want to let you know, you sound like a little brat right now. like one of those braindead fox players in melee that gets mad when he cant nairshine all of his problems away.

stinger from task is really laggy when you guard cancel it, so dont do it in those situations. Simple.
im pretty sure if you just do LMH - hori arrows, youll be way more safe. if they try to guard cancel any of that, you can just cancel into forward or back H and youll get the throw instead.

It's a 'scrub factor' that makes it way too easy for worse players to come back from a deficit with little work and few reads. I'm not against comeback factors. I actually like them a lot and think they should be implemented in most fighting games. However, it's bad when a certain mechanic rewards scrubby or bad play over good play. This was a major problem with Ultras in SSF IV. Ultras reward you for getting hit (on top of the Super meter gain that you're already receiving) and you can use that Ultra to deal all the damage that your opponent gave you back to him. In other words, the Ultra mechanic rewards a player for being hit, when that should never be a thing to look forward to. The Super meter is enough of a comeback mechanic, IMO. Likewise, X-factor should not cancel ALL lag and also equal a dead character (or team).

if youre getting hit with incoming mix ups by a solo character, you probably shouldnt be winning anyway.

also, how do you create a comeback mechanic (that you say you like) without rewarding the player for getting hit (which you say you dont like)? I dont think thats possible.

 

[bubbaking]

In my eyes, a good comeback factor doesn't reward a player for getting hit. It gives him the tools he needs to make up a deficit, nothing more. For instance, I think Lucario's comeback factor is pretty nifty. It doesn't benefit him to just let himself be hit when fighting a good player, but it does give him a useful tool to make up a deficit without going overboard once he's closed the gap.

 

[The Nameless Wanderer]

Honestly, I would have loved to have an option to turn X factor on or off, as I feel the game without X factor would put more emphasis on cold stone hard fundamentals, and be a "better" game.

But that's not what people play Marvel for.
They play Street Fighter for that.

Marvel is that game where it's never over. Anything that can happen WILL happen.
You can't take your eyes off the screen for a second. One small miscalculation or mistake can cost you the game. It's part of the reason why people like watching it and play.

I don't see what's scrubby about that. That's my take on it anyways.

 

[ぱみゅ]

I can see why people can enjoy watching Marvel, but it is just too inconsistent for me to want to follow it after one or two tournaments...

 

[[FBC] Papa Mink]

I can see why people love watching any video game.

But can those people see why I love cinnamon toast crunch?

 

[da K.I.D.]

I can see why people can enjoy watching Marvel, but it is just too inconsistent for me to want to follow it after one or two tournaments...

Right, the game where Chris G has lost a half dozen tournament sets in the last 8 months, is inconsistent...

kay.

i dont want to act like the game is perfect, but a ton of the reasons people hate the game just boil down to either they arent good enough and blame their player deficiencies on the game, or they dont respect what legitimately makes a person good at the game.

theres literally a ton of genius level people that play that game. If theres 25 top level people at a tournament, any game would look inconsistent.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Also, Smash players have a pretty poor idea about what "consistency" actually means because our seeding is ****ing broken and immoral.

 

[-LzR-]

Actually it's the opposite. Our results are fairly consistent because we decide who place well before the tournament even begins.

 

[SoulPech]

i dont want to act like the game is perfect, but a ton of the reasons people hate the game just boil down to either they arent good enough and blame their player deficiencies on the game, or they dont respect what legitimately makes a person good at the game.

theres literally a ton of genius level people that play that game. If theres 25 top level people at a tournament, any game would look inconsistent.

I don't play Marvel because I don't think it's fun. I do play SF and KoF though.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Actually it's the opposite. Our results are fairly consistent because we decide who place well before the tournament even begins.

What I meant was, we opt for a very literal definition of the word "consistent" by yes, deciding who will place well before the tournament starts.

However in the FGC consistency is a bigger range.

Look, if a player is winning first, second, and third place (i.e. in the money at most tournaments) they'll do it no matter who they have to play first round. Also, ankoku ran a few simulations a while back and came to the conclusion that there isn't even much difference in the top 8 in location-based seeding and "skill" seeding.

I love this example: at my first NY/NJ tournament I was seeded against Minty first round. Minty is better than me and won. Second round I had to play against some guy who was seeded against like Ally first round and lost, but was actually still pretty decent. It was a close match but I lost. Dead last.

Second tournament whoever was seeding accidentally give me a bye first round and I won my first match in winner's, then lost vs. Keitaro, then beat a couple of mid-level players knocked into losers round 1 and finally lost to... uh... can't remember, someone really good. Second tournament, both had the same amount of attendants, and I placed 17th. Why? I wasn't actually better, but the TO thought I was or messed up. It's insane to me that so much rides on some guy's opinion of you. lol

 

[-LzR-]

Yeah I've read your topic and I agree with you.

 

[bubbaking]

@SFP: I just random seed my tournaments (I've hosted one recently) and only try to prevent players from the same crew playing each other.

1. chip damage is what prevents runaway teams from being too strong. the chip damage in this game is actually perfect.
2. if you have an invincible super, or a teleport, you can punish stalking flare easily.
3. if youre good at pushblock, you can negate a lot of the damage.
4. against someone like haggar? yea, hes SoL on that, but most of the actual good characters in this game can actually do something about it. its risky though sometimes, so usually the smart option is to jump into it, and mash buttons really hard.

1. Chip damage is what lets runaway teams lock you down and kill you while at it. Doom is the best assist in the game for several reasons, and one of them is that his missiles do a good bit of chip damage. MorriDoom, HawkDoom, TaskDoom, they all do ridiculous amounts of damage from a distance.
2. Good thing every character in the game has an invincible super or a teleport.
3. I wasn't even saying that Stalking Flare is good. It was just an example of how strong Dorm's chip damage is, especially when in Level 3 X-factor.

1. I play V-Joe and Morrigan, good luck timing that correctly when Im rushing your ish down with triple hit air normals.
2. I can just throw you if all youre doing is blocking.
3. invincible super beat your attempt to grab
4. going to the corner doesnt really save you from all the characters that can teleport behind you in the corner.
5. Snapbacks are generally one frame and beat any button that someone throws out after an X factor cancel.
6. Half of zeros moveset is multi hit attacks, you cant x factor guard cancel him. not only that, but if you do catch him doing something randomly laggy, all he has to do is let go of a button to blow up anything you do.
7. If im winning and youre running away, Im going to do the same exact thing I do in brawl and just run away until either you approach me, or time runs out.

1. Foot Dive.
2. I'm obviously not just standing there blocking. I'm zoning with Plasma Beams and Finger Lasers, and I do have a CQC game for when you get in. I just like to block if I see you're going aggro on the block strings and then guard cancel. Also, if you're getting close enough to throw me, then either I'm throwing you first or we're having a tech battle.
3. You're acting like I don't know how to block.
4. Or react to teleports.
5. You can't snapback. I (and anyone) should only guard cancel at or near the end of your string when you can't cancel into anything else except a hyper. Basically, guard cancels happen when you can't snapback.
6. Yes, exactly, that's why Zero is the #1 best character in the game. It's like how Fox can't be shieldgrabbed because shine will pretty much always stuff your attempt to grab his landing lag. We all wish we could be Zero or Fox.
7. That situation is not really relevant, but Foot Dive.

random and reads and guessing right gets you wins. stupid and braindead gets you exposed by players that are actually good at the game.

I'm not even complaining about losing. I'm complaining about winning (consistently) against players who are legitimately better than me because of fraudulent nonsense. I probably play Marvel more than any other FG now, barring SG, because it actually lets me win for nonsense. As long as I get a hit in and use my DHC's properly, I can kill characters with few reads, and if I mess up, HIDDEN MISSILES, YO!!!

But thats what makes Smash players great at Marvel, our reads are amazing.
and i agree, you shouldnt die for blocking, if youre blocking correctly. and sometimes the best defense is just killing them before they get a chance to hurt you.

When it comes to allowing chip but giving ways to fight against/around it, I think SF III and EFZ are the best games out there. You are never down and out. Never, at any point, is one forced to put down the controller because he knows a super is just going to chip him to death on wake-up.

I just want to let you know, you sound like a little brat right now. like one of those braindead fox players in melee that gets mad when he cant nairshine all of his problems away.

Well, Taskmaster isn't Fox. It's like comparing Melee Samus's problems to Zero. Stinger is literally all Taskmaster has to make strings safe. Meanwhile, Zero gets to run around throwing out whatever his heart desires, Wesker gets to spam launchers without fear of punishment, and everyone else has a dive kick.

stinger from task is really laggy when you guard cancel it, so dont do it in those situations. Simple.
im pretty sure if you just do LMH - hori arrows, youll be way more safe. if they try to guard cancel any of that, you can just cancel into forward or back H and youll get the throw instead.

Again, no one guard cancels before the end of the string, which is either Stinger or arrows. Arrows do not make me more safe. That was my form of pressure before I adopted Stinger. Doing one arrow is the only way to kinda keep the block string up without creating a 'hole', and it's really minus on block. Two arrows makes a small hole and it's -1 on block, I believe, so I'm guessing it could easily be punished with guard cancel (never seen it happen because I don't use two arrows). Only three arrows is positive on block, and to get those I need to pause right in front of the opponent for a noticeable amount of time, breaking my string and leaving me open to punishment.

if youre getting hit with incoming mix ups by a solo character, you probably shouldnt be winning anyway.

Why don't you tell that to all of those great players who got perfected by Zero, or those players who get their butt handed to them by Wesker, Vergil, and Phoenix?

 

[da K.I.D.]

1. Chip damage is what lets runaway teams lock you down and kill you while at it. Doom is the best assist in the game for several reasons, and one of them is that his missiles do a good bit of chip damage. MorriDoom, HawkDoom, TaskDoom, they all do ridiculous amounts of damage from a distance.

Potent runaway really isnt any more of a problem than wolverine/akuma rushdown or Virgil+cart assist. Theres really good runaway and chip damage teams, and theres really good rushdown teams, and theres really good teams in the middle. Its actually fairly well balanced between styles.

2. Good thing every character in the game has an invincible super or a teleport.

When you have the option to play 3 characters on any one team, if you have an entire team that doesn't have an invincible super, a teleport or even a command dash like Zero/X-23, with ALL the characters out there that can do one of the 3, then you did something wrong and you deserve to lose. The game begins at character select man...

3. I wasn't even saying that Stalking Flare is good. It was just an example of how strong Dorm's chip damage is, especially when in Level 3 X-factor.

Snap him in if hes that much of a problem... theres valid counters to everything.

2. I'm obviously not just standing there blocking. I'm zoning with Plasma Beams and Finger Lasers, and I do have a CQC game for when you get in. I just like to block if I see you're going aggro on the block strings and then guard cancel. Also, if you're getting close enough to throw me, then either I'm throwing you first or we're having a tech battle.

Anybody thats getting over aggressive on you in a position where xfactor is clearly their go to option, deserves to get blown up. just because a guy can do obnoxiously long swag combos and look cute does not make him a better player if they are continously walking into x factor guard cancels and losing because of it. I think youre just getting blinded by the swag and just thinking these people are monumentally better than you.

3. You're acting like I don't know how to block.

youre the one who said 'all i have to do is go to the corner and up-back to win.'

5. You can't snapback. I (and anyone) should only guard cancel at or near the end of your string when you can't cancel into anything else except a hyper. Basically, guard cancels happen when you can't snapback.

You DO realize that once you connect with LM on their shield that nobodys forcing you to do H - back H - stinger, right?
like when i watch someone like moons or other good Taskys play, when they know they could get x factored, they do LM, and if its blocked, they stop the string and jump away, so as to not get guard canceled.

6. Yes, exactly, that's why Zero is the #1 best character in the game. It's like how Fox can't be shieldgrabbed because shine will pretty much always stuff your attempt to grab his landing lag. We all wish we could be Zero or Fox.

False. Virgil is the best character in the game.

I'm not even complaining about losing. I'm complaining about winning (consistently) against players who are legitimately better than me because of fraudulent nonsense. I probably play Marvel more than any other FG now, barring SG, because it actually lets me win for nonsense.

Like, I said, are these people really better than you if youre beating them with easily counterable stuff that stops working after a game or two.

As long as I get a hit in and use my DHC's properly, I can kill characters with few reads, and if I mess up, HIDDEN MISSILES, YO!!!

missiles are stupid and need to go away if he gets hit.

Well, Taskmaster isn't Fox. It's like comparing Melee Samus's problems to Zero. Stinger is literally all Taskmaster has to make strings safe.

boo hoo.

most character have to call assists or burn meter to make their normals safe

Meanwhile, Zero gets to run around throwing out whatever his heart desires, Wesker gets to spam launchers without fear of punishment, and everyone else has a dive kick.

Zero is too good, admittedly. But you can chicken block wesker and punish that move, plus if you dont or cant, he cant sustain pressure that way, it just resets to neutral situation, so who cares.
and dive kicks arent safe if you chicken block either, and even when you dont, those are just safe ways to start pressure, those characters like wolverine, use dive kick to get in, but after that he cant do a normal string safely without ending in B slash to B charge. which costs a meter. but boo hoo, your taskmaster can only do a safe, high priority special to stay safe.

Again, no one guard cancels before the end of the string, which is either Stinger or arrows. Arrows do not make me more safe. That was my form of pressure before I adopted Stinger. Doing one arrow is the only way to kinda keep the block string up without creating a 'hole', and it's really minus on block. Two arrows makes a small hole and it's -1 on block, I believe, so I'm guessing it could easily be punished with guard cancel (never seen it happen because I don't use two arrows). Only three arrows is positive on block, and to get those I need to pause right in front of the opponent for a noticeable amount of time, breaking my string and leaving me open to punishment.

Im sorry you dont play a character that can consistently maintain constant pressure by himself without assists or meter. maybe you should switch to zero if its that big of a deal to you, since hes the only character that can do all those things.

Why don't you tell that to all of those great players who got perfected by Zero, or those players who get their butt handed to them by Wesker, Vergil, and Phoenix?

Zero breaks rules
Phoenix should never really get to that point if you know what youre doing
Wesker shouldnt be 3v1 soloing teams and neither should Virgil.

 

[pidgezero_one]

SFP every time you post i like you even more

 

[RaptorTEC]

SfP for all we know the first tournament could have been a lot more stacked then the second one. Seeding is fine.

 

[bubbaking]

So, uh, I'm wrong in thinking that I'm the only one who truly random seeds his tourneys, right?

Potent runaway really isnt any more of a problem than wolverine/akuma rushdown or Virgil+cart assist. Theres really good runaway and chip damage teams, and theres really good rushdown teams, and theres really good teams in the middle. Its actually fairly well balanced between styles.

But you just pointed out yourself how Chris G is practically dominating the Marvel scene. Now who does Chris G play? That's right; lame, campy MorriDoom with some Akuma on the side. If we made a team tier list based solely on results, then potent runaway would take the cake at the top.

When you have the option to play 3 characters on any one team, if you have an entire team that doesn't have an invincible super, a teleport or even a command dash like Zero/X-23, with ALL the characters out there that can do one of the 3, then you did something wrong and you deserve to lose. The game begins at character select man...

Before Ultimate came out, I decided that I was going to have a super zoning team of Hawk/Ghost/Task, and I went through with it. None of these chars have any of those things (invincible super, a teleport, or a command dash). Then I switched out Ghost for Doom. My team still didn't have any of those things. It wasn't until I put Akuma on my team that I acquired both a teleport and an invincible super. The moral of the story is: It's a lot easier than you think to end up with a team with good synergy that doesn't actually have even one of these godly tools.

Snap him in if hes that much of a problem... theres valid counters to everything.

There is, but Dorm is in 'Cream of the Top' Tier for a reason.

False. Virgil is the best character in the game.

We are very clearly not going to advance anywhere regarding this topic, but perhaps we can come to agree on the conclusion that Zero is the best point character in the game, Virgil is the best anchor, and Dante is (potentially) the best filler, thus leaving us with the theoretically ridiculous team of Zero May Cry/Sons of Zero. For me, the thing is that Virgil needs meter to be scary at all (well, scarier than other good characters at least), while Zero doesn't. All of his combos are plus on meter gain and he doesn't lose safety and become restricted when he doesn't have meter.

missiles are stupid and need to go away if he gets hit.

Agreed.

boo hoo.

most character have to call assists or burn meter to make their normals safe

Yep, we call them bad characters.

Zero is too good, admittedly. But you can chicken block wesker and punish that move, plus if you dont or cant, he cant sustain pressure that way, it just resets to neutral situation, so who cares.
and dive kicks arent safe if you chicken block either, and even when you dont, those are just safe ways to start pressure, those characters like wolverine, use dive kick to get in, but after that he cant do a normal string safely without ending in B slash to B charge. which costs a meter. but boo hoo, your taskmaster can only do a safe, high priority special to stay safe.

Admittedly, Taskmaster is better than Wolverine, but you still have those chars who can spam normals and specials without a care in the world, like X-23 and Jill, all without burning meter or using assists.

Im sorry you dont play a character that can consistently maintain constant pressure by himself without assists or meter. maybe you should switch to zero if its that big of a deal to you, since hes the only character that can do all those things.

See above and there are more than just those two.

 

[Zankoku]

I believe simply location-based seeding (that is, seeding to make sure people from the same area don't play each other first round) is best for locals.

Skill-based seeding should only be reserved for cases where you actually have a data record of player skill, and should still allow for a degree of variability to account for possible change in player skill since the last time measured; that is, seeding precisely from first to last is inadvisable because nobody knows precisely how good each player is.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

SfP for all we know the first tournament could have been a lot more stacked then the second one. Seeding is fine.

It wasn't. Both were regional majorish tournaments with 70 or so attendees. One was Viridian City 7. I don't remember the name of the second one, but M2K, Ally, ADHD, Shadow, etc. were at both. All of the regional powerhouses were there.

 

[Gardex]

You're saying is that all the players that would place above your were the same.

What if the lower-placing players were stronger overall at the 1st tournament?

Not to mention you got a bye, which meant that you got an easier time in the bracket.
Seems more like a seeding error was the cause behind inconsistent results(not to mention that lower placements are more interchangable among players than the tougher top spots)