Official BBR Tier List v7

[Grim Tuesday]

Running speed is not everything.

 

[Iota]

I'm fairly certain he meant in terms of air mobility for Yoshi, who has the fastest air speed.

 

[shadowdude]

when are peaple going to start using lucas he's a good character my friend mains lucas where both very good by the way and there are only few characters that i can beet him with when he's lucas.i use all characters and i am good with any character, really good and there's still few i can beet lucas with.when will people start using him competitively.

 

[-LzR-]

1/5 try harder. A troll fails when people realize it's a troll. Feel free to try again with another alt though.

 

[Iota]

It's an alt?..darn I guess I just used 10 minutes typing up a response for nothing

 

[TheAwesomefroggy]

I'm fairly certain he meant in terms of air mobility for Yoshi, who has the fastest air speed.

Sonic's air speed is sixth fastest. Maybe he meant overall speed? IDK I didn't read his original post so I don't know what he's replying to.

 

[Luco]

I'm fairly certain he meant in terms of air mobility for Yoshi, who has the fastest air speed.

Oh my bad. Okay, that's valid.

 

[Myollnir]

Regrabbing Marth with DDD isn't hard if you buffer the grab and do a SCSG.

I don't see how DDD can be hard to play (at all).
Unless you want to master the infinites on Snake/etc... with the buffered pivot grab. Other than that his D-throw follow-ups are really easy to do, and he has a really linear playstyle imo.

But a character being easy to play is a great thing, I don't know why everyone wants to say that their character is hard to play...

 

[Grim Tuesday]

While he might not be technically difficult, he is going to be hard to play just because he isn't top tier.

 

[DMG]

It's hard to play Dedede in ways that get around what other characters have.

 

[Myollnir]

@both : I kinda agree, but if we say that every character that isn't top tier is hard to play... Almost every character would be considered difficult to play, so that wouldn't make sense at all. :/

DDD is not technically difficult to play, and he additionally hasn't got many options (although his few good options are REALLY good).
A character like MK doesn't require much techskill, but you always have to chose between a number of good options, so I think we can say he's hard to play, but DDD...

And I talk about playing characters optimally. It's pretty obvious that if you want to play...say, Ganon at the same level than MK (I'm speaking of competitive/high level), you should practice 1000x more lol.

 

[Luco]

... And thus my point. I use most character's moves, so when I come to DDD I keep using super laggy moves that I get really badly punished for. It's so stupid. Every other character I can work with, even peach (who's my brother's worst character). Just, not, DDD. That's not to say he's bad, just that I can't use him at all.

 

[Peachy-Desu]

How can anyone fail as Peach? She's lagless unless you **** up fair.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

hey hey, pivot toad

 

[Luco]

How can anyone fail as Peach? She's lagless unless you **** up fair.

It's as simple as not being able to follow their playstyle. o.O

I mean really, people are getting offended that someone in the world, SOMEONE can't use their char? O.O

 

[bubbaking]

I'm aware of this.

But it could, and I've done it before.

In theory, it could, and perhaps you've done this before, but I think most DDD's do not plan for this and thus do not go through all the trouble of inputting grab > hold down + back > get ready to tech during a small window of time and especially during a 'guaranteed CG'.

I don't see how DDD can be hard to play (at all).
Unless you want to master the infinites on Snake/etc... with the buffered pivot grab. Other than that his D-throw follow-ups are really easy to do, and he has a really linear playstyle imo.

But a character being easy to play is a great thing, I don't know why everyone wants to say that their character is hard to play...

You're mistaking 'easy follow-ups' for being easy to play. MK is a ton easier than DDD because he has such an easy time at neutral. Here's a personal story: I lose to John12346's Lucario more than I beat him with DDD. One day, however, he mentioned that MK-legal tourneys are on the rise so I decided to give him a spin. On my first try (and I also think on my second, as well), I beat him, even though MK is a character I no longer use and have stopped using entirely since Apex 2012. DDD +1's Lucario and MK +2's him, but I use DDD all the time and I never use MK so that kinda invalidates the MU value difference.

If a character has a much easier time at neutral against most of the cast, then that character is definitely easier to play, regardless of how easy follow-ups are from certain situations. MK has a ton more options at neutral and they're all safer and easier to pull off, not to mention the character can also gimp better, meaning he can benefit more off of knocking the opponent offstage. Oh, and let's not forget how easily MK holds a lead, which definitely factors into how 'easy' he is to play.

@both : I kinda agree, but if we say that every character that isn't top tier is hard to play... Almost every character would be considered difficult to play, so that wouldn't make sense at all. :/

DDD is not technically difficult to play, and he additionally hasn't got many options (although his few good options are REALLY good).
A character like MK doesn't require much techskill, but you always have to chose between a number of good options, so I think we can say he's hard to play, but DDD...

And I talk about playing characters optimally. It's pretty obvious that if you want to play...say, Ganon at the same level than MK (I'm speaking of competitive/high level), you should practice 1000x more lol.

DDD is hard because one has to struggle to make the right reads and also the right reactions with him, because he gets punished pretty hard if you don't. Everyone, including the DDD player, knows that his most rewarding option is grab, so everyone avoids it and since everyone is more mobile than DDD, that means that he won't be able to land his optimal reward unless he outplays or outsmarts his opponent. Yes, once the grab is landed, it's a breeze to just CG the opponent, but against a top-level player, DDD should be eating all the damage he dished out in one CG before he even gets to grab you. DDD has NO aerials that are safe to land with except for nair, and arguably bair (if spaced really well). One of his main spacing moves, ftilt, is actually quite easy to react to, is unsafe when shielded, and is unsafe at any range closer than mid-range.

All that being said, I still think DDD is a good character. He just actually does require a bit of skill to use properly. The same way that a CG does not automatically mean that DDD wins a MU (and a lack of one does not automatically mean that he loses), an easy CG does not make a character easy to play. If that was the case, then we might as well just say that Pika and Falco are extremely easy to play. I find their CG's and throw follow-ups to be a ton easier than DDD's, especially Pika's fthrow CG. I can do that one in my sleep and, IMO, it's more effective at killing opponents through walk-offs.

... And thus my point. I use most character's moves, so when I come to DDD I keep using super laggy moves that I get really badly punished for. It's so stupid. Every other character I can work with, even peach (who's my brother's worst character). Just, not, DDD. That's not to say he's bad, just that I can't use him at all.

Well, that's part of WHY DDD's hard to use. So many of his moves are laggy, yet you're supposed to use them all. The only move DDDs should never use is downB, unless you've mastered that Shuffle glitch. You have to work around DDD's limitations, which are many. If DDD's so easy to play, then it should be a piece of cake for other high-level players to just pick up DDD and do as well as Atomsk, Coney, and 4GOD with the character.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I've never seen the shuffle glitch used by DDD in tourney...

 

[bubbaking]

Which is why I'm saying that downB should never be used.

Edit: I believe even when fully-charged, downB isn't even as strong as fsmash. That, along with the abysmal range, is enough reason to never want to use it.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Remember that time you argued semantics with something I said? lol

I thought John# quit Brawl for Marvel

 

[bubbaking]

No, I actually don't remember. You'll have to remind me.

He did? Well, that's funny 'cause he SUCKS at Marvel! I go even with him and I'm a super scrub.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Well I dunno I don't know him personally, that was a question

I just decided not to dignify it with a question mark

 

[bubbaking]

Well your guess is as good as mine, but I hope not, 'cause he's not winning any money in that. XD He HAS been playing more Marvel (and SG) than Brawl lately, but so have I, and I don't think I'm quitting Brawl any time soon.

Edit: Heck, I don't even play that passively with my Doom. I was just exaggerating before when I gave myself as an example of chicken blocking (it was actually John's Doom that fit the bill perfectly). I actually do try to be aggro with him over most of the match. It's John#'s Doom that's fraudulent because that's literally all he does most of the time. Stay in the corner when he's in the lead, Foot Dive all day when he's not. It's funny 'cause every time we play, it boils down to whether he can kill my lead Taskmaster. If he can, then he usually wins the match, but a lot of the time, my point Task (plus assists) just runs through his entire team. It's really quite a hilarious sight to behold.

When people make an argument (solid or not) for stages to be legal, they are crazy, talking nonsense, and the majority would not want it, so the stages remain banned no matter what.
When people make an argument (solid or not) for Meta Knight to be legal, they are crazy, talking nonsense, and the majority would not want it, but they unban him so the small group of people complaining stops doing so.

TOs.

Super duper late but I just ran into this post while browsing randomly and decided to reply. TOs can do what they want. If you don't agree, don't go to their tourney. Tbh, I always disagreed with a "Unity Ruleset" that was kinda imposed on other TOs, 'cause if they didn't follow it, their tournaments didn't end up stickied.

 

[da K.I.D.]

He did? Well, that's funny 'cause he SUCKS at Marvel! I go even with him and I'm a super scrub.

Then why the hell were you arguing with me about high level play and tactics?

 

[Myollnir]

Why would you f-tilt when the opponent is closer than mid-range if you can grab? lol

Pikachu requires a lot of techskill, especially with the d-throw u-air footstool lock and the QAC in general. And, unlike DDD, has more than 4 good moves.

My point is, DDD isn't hard to play, you can just be good at brawl and have a good DDD in a few weeks. I'm not saying it's easy to do as well as MK with DDD, I'm just saying that he's a one-dimensional character.

 

[bubbaking]

Then why the hell were you arguing with me about high level play and tactics?

Who ever said I was "high level"? I know I sure didn't. I just understand high level play. In fact, all I claimed was that I beat people who are better than me at Marvel using scrubby tactics, but you responded that clearly, those people aren't better than me then. Besides, I think Noah already proved to all of us that you don't even have to be close to the best to beat a bunch of 'good people' with well-instilled shenanigans. Marvel's unforgiving like that.

 

[infiniteV115]

bubba...how do you not understand why people won't take you seriously when you say things like

"I'm a complete and total scrub at this game but I understand high level play very well"

?

 

[bubbaking]

You don't have to be good at a game to understand it, and besides, you totally missed the point of the original conversation. Either you weren't there for it, or you just missed it. We were talking about how 'dumb' Marvel is and how bad certain mechanics of it were. I was saying that I beat people who are much better than me at Marvel by using stupid mechanics. The point was that if a single mechanic lets a 'scrub' beat actual legit players, then there's something wrong with the game.

Edit: And I'd like to see myself as a mid-level Marvel player. In my book, mid-level = scrub. It doesn't make any difference unless you're making money. I don't care who you are or how good you claim to be. If you aren't rackin' in the dough, then you're a scrub. Notice how I never said that scrubs can't have a voice or that they should be ignored or that they can't understand play that's better than theirs, because that simply isn't true. However, the fact still remains that they are indeed "scrubs".

Edit 2: It's like how I said Minty sucks at Melee because I beat him consistently and I 3-1/3-0 him during our competitive sets. I know I suck at Melee, so if I suck, then he definitely sucks. However, I know I understand high-level Melee play and he probably does too. Still, we both suck until we actually bring results.

Why would you f-tilt when the opponent is closer than mid-range if you can grab? lol

First off, even at mid-range (out of grab range), ftilt is easily PS'd, and then it's not safe anymore. Secondly, the hilt hitbox of ftilt actually sets up for grab so it's a good mix-up, especially when you're trying to catch spot-dodges.

Pikachu requires a lot of techskill, especially with the d-throw u-air footstool lock and the QAC in general. And, unlike DDD, has more than 4 good moves.

This doesn't change anything because Pikachu still wins a bunch of MUs due to CG'ing them to death. Also, tech-skill does not, in any way, denote 'difficulty' in the entirety of the term. MK can be pretty technical and I'd argue that he's a whole ton easier than a bunch of other less technical chars. It's like saying in Melee, Falco is more difficult than Samus or Luigi because he's "more technical". That's just a bunch of BS. Tech skill does not make a character difficult. How hard it is to take advantage of his strengths and minimize his weaknesses is what makes a character "difficult".

Tech skill is just 'how well can you press a bunch of buttons in order and in a certain rhythmic and timely fashion.' Pikachu being "technical" is not solely what makes him hard to play. It adds to it, but there's so much more than that.

My point is, DDD isn't hard to play, you can just be good at brawl and have a good DDD in a few weeks. I'm not saying it's easy to do as well as MK with DDD, I'm just saying that he's a one-dimensional character.

My response to this statement has already been made:

If DDD's so easy to play, then it should be a piece of cake for other high-level players to just pick up DDD and do as well as Atomsk, Coney, and 4GOD with the character.

Why don't I see more 'pocket DDDs' doing successfully in bracket? He has a pretty good MU spread on all the chars below him and he's got some key advantages on a few above him. If people really want their money, I should see people whippin' him out left and right.

 

[Myollnir]

I personally have a pocket DDD, but I only use him when I have to CP, since I'm forced to know which character they'll play because I don't want to fight a MK with DDD lol.

It's really nice to have a pocket DDD imo.

But why top players would pick up DDD if they have MK (especially if they already main him)?

 

[infiniteV115]

You don't have to be good at a game to understand it

Yes, I know it's possible to understand a game without being good at it.

My point was that you have to be able to demonstrate that you actually understand the game at a high level rather than just saying it.
Cause the above quote alone isn't enough to justify your stance/view on something related to the game. If it was, literally anybody could claim to understand a game at high level play.

 

[Nede]

Imo Ice Climbers should be above Olimar and Diddy. He does much better overall at Nationals and does better against the number 1 tournament threat (Meta-Knight). Only major weakness he has is stage dependancy and more and more tournaments are sticking to conservative stages anyway.

 

[bubbaking]

But why top players would pick up DDD if they have MK (especially if they already main him)?

DDD beats a good bunch of Mid/Low Tiers better than MK does.
Examples off the top of my head: Wolf, Ness, DK, Bowser, and probably Wario.

Edit: Wolf, in particular, is a MU that I would personally pick DDD up for if I didn't already main him. Wolf does pretty well against MK, which as I understand it, is a large reason why he rose up the tier list alongside Fox into BL Tier. Ness, DK, and Bowser are less obvious, but DDD still beats them much easier than MK. I also feel like DDD has a much easier time 'BSing' Wario than MK does.

My point was that you have to be able to demonstrate that you actually understand the game at a high level rather than just saying it.
Cause the above quote alone isn't enough to justify your stance/view on something related to the game. If it was, literally anybody could claim to understand a game at high level play.

It would probably be much better if you kept track of the whole conversation. Then you would have seen that I do, indeed, understand good Marvel play. That single statement was a reply to KID whom I'd been having the long discussion with. No offense, but you kinda just 'jumped in the middle,' so to speak. For the record, I believe KID also admitted at one point in time here that he's also not a "high-level" Marvel player.

Edit: I don't expect anyone here to be a "high level" player. If you are, please list your results and I will promptly take that back. As such, this is probably a discussion being held between two mid-level players. Until I say something blatantly ridiculous, like "Hulk is the best character in the game because he has so much life and he does so much damage!" then I think that my word is noteworthy, to be quite honest.

 

[Iota]

D3 probably does. He has an easier time pulling stupid stuff on us due to his weight class and lack of technical zoning tactic requirements.

 

[bubbaking]

Still, Wario does get those stupid combos on DDD that rack up a good deal of damage rather quickly. Quite annoying, tbh...

 

[Yodery]

Kill people.
Burn ****.
**** school.
Falco to the top.

 

[infiniteV115]

It would probably be much better if you kept track of the whole conversation. Then you would have seen that I do, indeed, understand good Marvel play. That single statement was a reply to KID whom I'd been having the long discussion with. No offense, but you kinda just 'jumped in the middle,' so to speak. For the record, I believe KID also admitted at one point in time here that he's also not a "high-level" Marvel player.

Edit: I don't expect anyone here to be a "high level" player. If you are, please list your results and I will promptly take that back. As such, this is probably a discussion being held between two mid-level players. Until I say something blatantly ridiculous, like "Hulk is the best character in the game because he has so much life and he does so much damage!" then I think that my word is noteworthy, to be quite honest.

I wasn't contradicting anything you were saying. I can't tell whether you understand good Marvel play because I don't know anything about Marvel, so reading your discussion would have been a waste of my time (ie why I didn't read it)

My point is, if somebody else disagrees with you about high-level Marvel play and you try to give yourself some credibility by saying "well I suck but trust me I understand high-level play", you're not exactly being productive.

 

[bubbaking]

Fair enough.

 

[Seagull Joe]

DDD beats a good bunch of Mid/Low Tiers better than MK does.
Examples off the top of my head: Wolf, Ness, DK, Bowser, and probably Wario.

Edit: Wolf, in particular, is a MU that I would personally pick DDD up for if I didn't already main him. Wolf does pretty well against MK, which as I understand it, is a large reason why he rose up the tier list alongside Fox into BL Tier. Ness, DK, and Bowser are less obvious, but DDD still beats them much easier than MK. I also feel like DDD has a much easier time 'BSing' Wario than MK does.

It would probably be much better if you kept track of the whole conversation. Then you would have seen that I do, indeed, understand good Marvel play. That single statement was a reply to KID whom I'd been having the long discussion with. No offense, but you kinda just 'jumped in the middle,' so to speak. For the record, I believe KID also admitted at one point in time here that he's also not a "high-level" Marvel player.

Edit: I don't expect anyone here to be a "high level" player. If you are, please list your results and I will promptly take that back. As such, this is probably a discussion being held between two mid-level players. Until I say something blatantly ridiculous, like "Hulk is the best character in the game because he has so much life and he does so much damage!" then I think that my word is noteworthy, to be quite honest.

went up primarily because his tourney placements and matchups didn't make sense with his tier list position. When in multiple areas the character was performing well it didn't make sense why he was lower then or for that matter.

vs is hard. 20-80 matchup.

 

[bubbaking]

Exactly, Wolf is a perfect character to pull out the 'pocket DDD' for. I believe even over here on LI, Coontails likes to pull out the ol' pocket king whenever he goes up against Payne.

 

[Luco]

Yes, I know it's possible to understand a game without being good at it.

My point was that you have to be able to demonstrate that you actually understand the game at a high level rather than just saying it.
Cause the above quote alone isn't enough to justify your stance/view on something related to the game. If it was, literally anybody could claim to understand a game at high level play.

That sounds a bit contradictory:

'Well yes you can understand a game without being good at it but you have to be good at it for other people to think you have any knowledge of the game.'

*coughcough*

Still, I see what you're saying, I just think that it shouldn't be your play which determines whether you're right on that subject, it's whether you're right or not lol. If I were to say 'Ness' Fair out-ranges Oli's Fair' (which iirc is true), it shouldn't be "Awww, well you're a not very well known player, so I can't take what you're saying seriously". It should be "well yes you are right, you can see it in x video..." etc etc. (or if I am actually wrong on this one, "Well no you are wrong, you can see it in y video..." etc etc.)... that's how I see it anyway.

Oh, also, @Bubbaking: Funny that, because DDD is one of our stupid MU's. :-P In fact, I do believe we are talking about him right now in our Q&A thread. Obvious for the person with one of two -3's, not obvious for the person with a bunch of +3's, I s'pose.

 

[bubbaking]

Are you talking about Ness or Lucas? Because I thought that DDD only +2's Lucas. From what I understand, Lucas can actually combo DDD pretty hard when he gets a hit in or something and he's infinitely harder to gimp. If you're talking about Ness, that's funny because I was originally a part of the Ness vs DDD MU discussion on the Ness boards. I think Baconator brought me in there because we play the MU so much and I've also played against another decent Ness.